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  1. #1

    Default To Clevor, or not to Clevor...

    Link to the best article on the subject I've seen.

    https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/351c...e-d-t2099.html

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    My experience, which took place in the late 80's before inline aluminum heads were readily available cheap(J heads?), was that all the soggy bottom end talk was a load of Chevy poo. My little pump gas spare parts Boss 302 in the picture pulled all the way to 7000 with a more aggressive Crower solid grind and Hedman Huslers. I think Pence is spot on targeting the simplistic Smokey/Chevy centric thinking that still permeates bench racing atmospheres despite the Cleveland design winning every engine masters they were ever entered in. I'm talking myself in to a 408c from DSS or T Meyer here, still have the heads and headers from 30 years ago.

    Anyone else out there have that thundering Cleveland roar still ringing in their ears and you just can't force yourself to follow conventional wisdom?

  2. #2

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    Car was a 79 Ghia coupe with the maroon interior. Had a toploader with comp plus linkage and a 3.73 8.8 on TRX's.

  3. #3
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    It's all magazine hyperbole which was started innocently enough by some well meaning magazine boffins and oft repeated as science fact. The originator was the late Roger Huntington, who with Hale, debugged all the net and gross horsepower stuff the Big Four miss-qouted ad naseam from 1958 to 1971. When the industry went to Net powe ratings in 1972, the Cleveland 4V engines remained with 248, 261, 266 or 275 hp rating small blocks that almost matched GM'S best Super Duty Pontiac 455's for performance. Discussions on latency of low end response compared to AMC's best GO Pack 325 hp 390 or the Corvette 454 weren't objective on an engine 39 to 104 cubic inches smaller.

    See 1950s, the late Roger Huntington (please see http://www.mmshof.org/inductees/roger-huntington/), author of numerous books.

    The important aspect of the love of truth and free speech in USA society is that it invests a lot of open source aspects of the Greek Open Forum thirst for knowledge with a good share of the wonderfully Roman technical tour de force of rock roading and bulwarking "come see and conquer" media spin.
    The books remain, but public sentiment changes all the way through. In other countries, Roger Huntingtons stuff was repeated and didn't ring true. In Australia, the Cleveland 2V 302 and 351 heads were able to almost match any Cleveland 4V Boss 302 or 351 head, but only after extensive extra work that Ford gave to the 4V head at birth. 244 cc intake runners with 137 cc exhaust ports and 4.4 sq in intake ports with 2.25 or 2.19 inch intakes were tested against the same year Chev D code and LT1 V8s, and the Ford Boss 302 and 351's had more low end torque with 20 to 30 degree less cam duration, and 10 to 20 hp more top end power. See Richard Holenders videos on Boss 302 verses DZ 302 Z/28, Boss 351 1971 and Q code HO verses 1970 and 1972 LT1 spec 350 Chevy.

    Best example is what is the curgent "Old Car Memories" approach of repeating verbatim every moral of fact as a feature verses actual performance truth. Port area, valve size, how many wheel studs your Fox Mustang has verses a GM B body...its all irrelevant. What matters is what you actually achieve.

    Starting with alloy head copies of the old Iron 4V Cleveland Boss heads in about 1983 to 1986, Yates and Roush down-graded the intake port area and tried to get through the Glidden Hi port exhausts of all aluminum heads by 13%, to come close to matching the 17% smaller 2V Cleveland 302C/351C/351M/400 Ford heads. SVO then sold NASCAR guys a trench port 13:1 forged piston and forged cranks and special blocks to improve brake specfic fuel consumption while keeping the horsepower levels. That's NASCAR restrictor plate engines. The conclusions between Pro Stock, Winston Cup and Trans Am race car stories about grunt off the mark or whatever...they aren't objective. Gross torque and horsepower on the dyno is.

  4. #4
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    These days, Edlebrock heads on a 427 Windsor Dart SHP blocks are making 532 hp at 6200 rpm, or 1000 hp Supercharged on pump 93 octane or 1200 hp on VP Race Fuel with just 12.9 pounds of Vortech supercharger boost. The heads are 240 cc intake runner and 95 exhaust. Modern LS engines have huge port intake areas tge same size as that head

    So the old stories...they are just stories, and the big port canted valve heads with flatter than Rat valve angles did all the right stuff in 1969 and GM and Mopar have been catching up for 53 years.

    One point though. Its not all air flow. 275 cfm heads get beaten by a good 230 cfm head flow 340 Six Pack engine with makes as much power as a 351C 4V Boss if those parts are on a NASCAR 350 or 355 Mopar block bore and stroke.They are line ball hp wise if capacity is equal.

    The Boss 302 concept was 100% right in 1969. The concept if Epoxy Morter ing heads down to 2V Cleveland 185 to 209 cc intake runners was done as a experiment by many Trans Am racers to make extra torque off the armco rails. It doesn't mean anything. Roger Huntington's brill isn't articless have always been copied and recited as science fact. Science us always a living document if discussion. Don't just live in 1969....

  5. #5
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Even in the 302 to 347 cube area, Everyone who moves to bigger 4V Cleveland style intake and exhaust port sizes seams to get the power and torque benefits that using less cam duration provides.


    An example I'll give you. The 318-340 LA Mopar is perhaps as stuborn like the LS or Boss 302W or 351C 4V is willing . On the best LAs, the Mongoose like flow of the Hemi SRT-8 heads are matched by some of the Summit 195 or 239 cc Brodix B1 BA, Pro MAXX # 9361's and TFS PP 190 heads that are at 285, 297, 302 cfm unported, 315 cfm ported. With the 903 thou diameter lifter and roller with a truly neat intake, the LA gets to match an LS. Following 4V Boss 302 pirt sizea, hose old Aussie import Iron Engine Quest CH318B's with porting going up from 233 to 263 cfm before repositioning the guides 50 thou; 285 cfm @ 600 thou with it moved and the intake.172 cc port goes to 185 modified, 62 to 67 cc chambers modied for 1.97" intakes..

    The common modified 340 Mopar or 427 Dart heads are all getting offset pushrods or lifters to vainly attempt to get after hundreds of hours of work what the 4V Cleveland Boss head ...gets Stock.

  6. #6
    FEP Supporter Broncojunkie's Avatar
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    At one point, I had the hankering for a nasty 351c/4 speed toploader setup in a fox. I had a couple cleveland blocks with a set of 4v heads and two toploaders. I also had the Lakewood bell that worked with the fox cable-style clutch (I believe I traded that bell off to a member a couple years ago). In retrospect, I should have stuck with that plan.

    The reason I'm into foxes is due to my older cousin's 351c swapped pace car. When I was a kid, he used to take me out in that car and it lit a fire. I've had several foxes over the years...some with modified 302's, but they don't hold a candle to a screaming clevo.
    79 Pace Car - 331, t5
    79 Cobra - working on 351w, t5
    82 Capri- working on 302, t5
    82gt - working on 408w, c4

  7. #7

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    You two are making me cry!(tears of joy)
    Last edited by BossP351; 06-12-2021 at 07:11 PM.

  8. #8
    FEP Supporter Broncojunkie's Avatar
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    Not a fox, but here's some footage of a hot Cleveland doing business.
    https://youtu.be/_1ulVwHg6wM
    79 Pace Car - 331, t5
    79 Cobra - working on 351w, t5
    82 Capri- working on 302, t5
    82gt - working on 408w, c4

  9. #9
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    The goodness of the 265 to 275 cfm 4V closed and open heads are shown in the 3250 pound deTomaso Pantera. The Windsor verses Cleveland block or the 302 W Boss verses 351C peformance is basically the same as the power is what important in acceleration times. Remember, a stock oss 302 verses a Boss 351 were only 10 hp different in actual peak power.

    Some historical comparisons.

    The less powerful US emissions 300 hp, 333 lb-ft 1987 AmeriSport did a 14.7 quarter mile at 96 mph and 5.5.second 0-60 . See https://youtu.be/j3OJGBbfWmc


    Similar as the UK Motor testing in late 1971 were an 11:1 compression 330 hp net and 326 lb-ft version did 14.1 quarter mile and 5.8 seonds 0-60. The early versions had the Sebring 5th gear only did 137 mph, all the later cars had taller overdrives in the 5th gear and 159 mph. But the engine spec varied, with some cars doing 5.1 sec 0-60's, some 6.8 seconds because factory net rating varied from 248 to 360 hp.


    Quarter mile times with the higher compression 345, 350, 355 or 360 hp net engine were as low as 13.5 seconds. Top speed on the better taller geared 72 to 88 351C cars were 159 to , 174 mph. On US spec Pantera L, 145 mph with 248 hp net 8.4:1 compression engines.

    All US spec Panteras from 71 to 74 had hydraulic cam engines, not the top of the line 330 hp Gross Mustang Boss or 261/266/275 hp CJ or later HO 351C rating, but often the four bolt block would be used 72 to 74. Later Euro versions got solid lifter engines as a retrofitted option.


    The official figures from de Tomaso were 330 hp net for pre October 1971, then 310 hp net for the European 1972 model year.The other sources had 300 hp for Euro 1970, 355 hp gross for the 1972 Euro GTS, then 304 hp for Euro 1973 GTS, then 335 hp net for Euro 1972 L, 355 hp for the 1979 Euro GT5 S, and up to 360 hp versions from Peter Monteverdai's Swiss tuning arm. 350 hp for the 1985 GTS.


    345 hp net for Euro1988 GT5 S. The 300 hp net for 1987 US GT5 S, then gave way to 305 to 309hp for the GT40 headed SEFi Euro 1990 Si 5.0, then the 248 hp net from the downgraded GT40 spec Mustang SVT Cobra 5.0 engine according to my sources. The Targa Si of 1994 was the last Pantera.

    Lastly, since stroking any Windsor 5.0 or 5.8 liter to 5.6 liters or 6.7 liters is so easy, 206 to 235 cfm 2V closed or open chamber heads also make Excellent power.Just an iron 2V Cleveland head exceeds the better Fuelie 5.0/ 5.8 heads. With 347 or 408 cubes a 3300 pound car can do easy 10s with C4, no roller can and a little tire.

    See this

    https://youtu.be/eAp0DVQtRQ4

  10. #10

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    The sound alone... even if they were obsolete and a paper tiger I'd take it. 1985 - 6 cruising Everett, Wa Colby avenue the retail parking lots would be filled with the usual suspects squaring up to race on a Boeing service road. Dozens of 350 Nova's, a few Mopar's and such. My 69 coupe with a 302 didn't scare anybody but there was a white 70 Mach 1 351 4sp that would roll in and next thing you know the parking lot was empty besides us.

  11. #11
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    The Cleveland engine and heads are excellent pieces. I personally have never owned a Cleveland, although I did have a few 351/400M engines in 70's Ford trucks, so I have some familiarity with the basic architecture. As someone that continues to build, install, modify my Foxes in ways that aren't always the most cost effective or easiest to build. I would never stop or suggest that someone doesn't go the Cleveland or Clevor route if that is what they really want. With that said, I have to admit that unless I had a great set of heads or could get a set on the super cheap it would be hard to justify going the Cleveland/Clevor route starting from scratch. Again this is the guy that has an 82 GT sitting on a frame jig with a Navigator 5.4 DOHC between the frame rails. Probably not the smartest option, but I went that direction to be different and because I already had the engine sitting there. Now I have spent more $$ to make the 5.4 fit and work than if I had gone with a 4.6 or even the Coyote 5.0. Will it be cool? I hope so! Would I ever do it again? NO!!!
    Same reason why I have a complete 460 short block with an awesome rotating assembly, but I just can't pull the trigger to drop it into one of my Foxes due to the additional costs and headaches of the install. Doesn't mean I won't at some point, but I keep talking myself out of it, at least for now.

    If anyone goes the Cleveland/Clevor route, definitely post a build thread here on FEP as I am sure we will all enjoy seeing the fruits of your labor. Good Luck!
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Ongoing RestoModification
    1984 SVO Awaiting Restoration
    1986 GT Wrecked by PO, but still want to save!

    Current Capris:
    1981 Capri Roller
    1981 Capri Black Magic Roller Basket Case
    1982 Capri RS 5.0/4spd T-top Full Restoration Underway
    1984 Capri RS T-top Roller
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts

  12. #12

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    https://www.cvfracing.com/ford/

    Retailers like this don't help the sickness! I've dreamed of that Navi swap too, as well as the Twisted Wedge 2v and distributor off the valve cover/cam drive. My wife has a 2002 Mountaineer with the aluminum block and pushing 200k so naturally I dream of SN95 headers, MM K member, BBK full length, T-45 and Cobra IRS. The spare parts Boss 302 I did in the early 90's was simple though and the sound...

    Are your main challenges with the 5.4 the electronics and size?

  13. #13
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BossP351 View Post
    Are your main challenges with the 5.4 the electronics and size?
    The size and the fact that there aren't really any mass produced exhaust headers for this setup right now. The electronics, I considered trying to make some OEM stuff work, but now with Holley having this setup https://www.holley.com/products/fuel...parts/550-1219 there really isn't any sense in messing with the OEM stuff. I haven't pulled the trigger on this just yet, but probably will by the end of the year. I have to finish up my 86 GT and then the 82 GT becomes priority again, so I can get it on the road and out of garage jail. I plan on using the Sniper 5.0 intake, but that may require a cowl hood for clearance up front with the forward facing throttle body. I can only drop the engine do so much without causing too many other issues.
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Ongoing RestoModification
    1984 SVO Awaiting Restoration
    1986 GT Wrecked by PO, but still want to save!

    Current Capris:
    1981 Capri Roller
    1981 Capri Black Magic Roller Basket Case
    1982 Capri RS 5.0/4spd T-top Full Restoration Underway
    1984 Capri RS T-top Roller
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts

  14. #14

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    Looks like that works with a factory style intake? I was thinking you were going with a carb flange style single plane. They are probably just as tall. For my Clevo build I like the Stormin Norman hood or a Boss 429 scoop.

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