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  1. #1

    Default Attn: Maryland Peeps - Emissions Questions

    Hello All,

    First and foremost, forgive any ignorance here as I'm not as experienced as many of you are.

    1. I have an 85 GT project with manual trans / AC
    2. Planning to upgrade to an Edelbrock AVS2 carb and Windsor Sr. / Roush heads with 1.6 rockers
    3. My exhaust system needs complete replacement and I'm going to add headers and an H-pipe


    For those of you with modded engines in your daily drivers (i.e. no special license tags), what has been your experience getting through emissions? I'm wondering:

    1. How much of the smog crap under the hood can I eliminate?
    2. Do modern cats (i.e. Flowmaster mini-cats) allow for removal of any of the smog crap?
    3. Has anyone passed emissions without cats?
    4. Do ceramic coated (internally hotter) headers help in any way?
    5. What else do I need to think about to get this thing through emissions?


    Thanks in advance for any guidance / info whatsoever. Non-MD peeps welcome to chime in as well!!


    BG

  2. #2

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    I'm a MD VEIP Certified tech.

    1. To remain legal? All must stay.
    2. No. The only thing they do not need is secondary air pumped into the catalyst bed.
    3. No. Cats MUST be present during visual inspection. Their absence is an immediate fail.
    4. No. EGT isn't that much higher with ceramic coating.
    5. To get through emissions, all equipment must be present and functional.

    Removing the secondary air pump only gains single digit horsepower at peak RPM on a stock engine. Dyno proven on a MD150.
    EGR does not affect HP at all, during WOT. EGR is disabled during WOT.
    Tank and carb bowl vent to charcoal canister have no affect on HP. They are for key-off evaporative emissions.
    I know the Winsor Sr heads have secondary air ports, but not sure about the Rousch, haven't used them.
    The Edelbrock carb you've chosen isn't emissions compliant, due to the lack of an external bowl vent, and its out-of-the-box calibration.

    Now, with that said; MD no longer emission tests vehicles prior to 1996. However, during initial safety inspection, all emissions equipment must be present for it to pass. Most current inspectors have no idea what they're looking at when it comes to carbureted vehicles, so if it appears to have the equipment in place and connected, they'll most likely pass it.

    On a personal note, I don't agree with removing the emissions equipment. Most folks remove it because they simply don't understand it. I'm in process of hunting down all the emissions components for my '83 GT, just to prove I can make reliable, daily driven power, and still be compliant.

    Happy wrenching!
    Jim DeAngelis
    Cornucopia of Useless Knowledge
    Connoisseur of Dearborn Ferrous Oxide
    '83 GT hatch, currently under the knife
    '79 Capri 2.3L n/a, Medium Copper metallic, survivor
    (bought from MRausch82)

  3. #3
    FEP Supporter Broncojunkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FB71 View Post
    I'm in process of hunting down all the emissions components for my '83 GT
    This statement here is probably why most people want to get rid of it. When these cars were new, they did what was needed to pass emissions. 35 yrs later, the parts are obsolete and out of production, but still required by law. When the emissions-related parts fail, not only can they cause poor performance, but they can cause excessive pollution and poor mileage...even worse than a car with all of this stuff removed. I would actually be ok with requiring an emmissions standard for old vehicles, as long as it's within reason. There are far better methods and parts available now to reduce emissions in the aftermarket world, as technology has far surpassed what they had in the 70's and 80's. But requiring old cars to retain old smog equipment just seems counterproductive to me.
    79 Pace Car - 331, t5
    79 Cobra - working on 351w, t5
    82 Capri- working on 302, t5
    82gt - working on 408w, c4

  4. #4
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    The problem isn't the emission equipment, because you can do the same thing a variety of ways. Upstream and Downstream AIR, EGR, Evaporative Emmissions Canister and Purge, PCV, air cleaner and float bowl purge, tank purge, Hot Engine Idle Compensators...all were around in 1978. The problem is people think it's a ten minute tune up to gain one second off the quarter mile like it was in Port EFI 5.0's, but on carb 5.0s, the whole package doesnt take even 5% off the peak engine power. Just like it was on 1972 with the Cleveland 351 4V, its the deal drop in compression ratio and restrictive intake that no longer flowed like a Boss that takes the powe and torque away.

    Even on a 1000 hp 400 Ford small block, adding emission Control won't take off 50 hp. It's the compression drop to meet the 89 RON fuel requirement that robs power. As long as peak combusfion heat is dampened out to reduce peak Nitrogen compounds, fuel octane and compression increase wont hurt emissions. There is away around that when the car is IM Tested.

    Ford

    The exhaust duration on an emissions engine has to be either wound back to 280 to 295 degrees at lash or about 215 to 225 degrees at 50 thou, or you'll then need to rework the AIR/EGR and PCV system. On the Federal emission test, they mandated possible operation on 87 to 89 octane test fuel, as well as a target cit and highway fuel consumption. That was what "Wound the Wick Back". If you can find enough added octane in your fuel, and can prove that the engine is in stock tune with respect to its Emissions tag idle advance anD engine emissions, you can turn a 157 hp or 175 hp 2 or 4bbl into a compliant 350 hp car. The emissions package on carb cars is not a real horspower and torque handicap. Catalysts from other 1980-1981 year G code 351W HOs are able to be added if your smart enough


    Adding one extra cat to make a four cat dual exhaust is technically a fail, but it'll make 350 hp with the right system. Like a PCV, a catalyst exhaust is a balanced device which has varied flow rates according to horsepower

    Key things for power are Fuel octane verses Cam exhaust duration. The inspection won't pick up on that unless your ru nine 11:1 with a much bigger cam duration and lift. Import ant is showing the correct ignition timing, looking like the cylinder head casting type has Thermactor AIR tubes, Compression ratio increase hurts Nitrate compound production, but you can drop that right down with a certain kind of modification. Backpressure with your catalysts are the main hp issues. AIR, EGR, Hot Idle Compensators, Heat Stove and Load Control and PCV and Evaporative emission take no significant hp off.

    The Wallace Racing calculator says running an 8 to 1 compression ratio on a 5 liter V8 verses having an 11 :1 compression ratio is saying good bye to 18% of your engines power. 28 to 31hp extra without a cam change.


    2V HO 157 ---> 185 hp.
    4V HO 174 hp---> 205 hp.

    Removing the cats wont give you 1 extra hp untill your cars engine is making 50 extrs hp stronger. De-belting the AIR pump might give you another 5 hp at 4400rpm.

    Cam changes and intake upgrades will add more Hp than emissions removal.

  5. #5

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    Jim,

    Cornucopia of Useless Knowledge?

    Completely disagree there, sir. Thanks VERY MUCH for the info and insight!

    BTW - Not concerned about HP - just want to clean up the engine bay a bit.

  6. #6
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    It's really hard to clean up a carb engine bay and have it emission compliant. The total amount of emissions items are 103 verses about 62 If it's TBI or CFI. So for throttle body, central or port EFI, its easy.

    The problem is the carb needs vacuum lines to adjust and remove hydrocarbons. On Electronic fuel injection, no major vac lines are required, the lines from the carb are sadly, legion.

    IMHO, The best cleanup is to use bundy tubing and color code it in powder coat in the seven key 1982-1988 VECi colors to make it a feature rather than hide it all.

    Toyota and Ford Australia did this on some of there pre EFI cars. Works great.

    Ford world wide during the 80s carb era moved to natural or black engine blocks, used rubber lines with junction colors and so it always looks like Bishop after the xenomorph escaped on the 1979 horror Sci FI Alien.


    The best options for carb Foxes...see here. The emissions package is not a subject of the conversation but Fords Australian wing for 1979 to 1985 in the Falcons/Fairmonts/Fairlanes/LTD'S and Bronco/F150's till late 1985 made the US Chrysler 360 spec Carter ThermoQuad 4bbl engines look great with very few emissions parts.

    See http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...-pics-in-a-fox

  7. #7
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Unless the price of the the modular cammers come down, the green rod movement will continue with old 5.0 Explorer and 5.8 Lightening blocks and propane or EO order approved mods, or LS Chev engines.

    I appreciate what you say about Horsepower, but you can update to the later four cat Port EFI exhaust and use headers with the load control heater. It's essentially blending later 1985 and 1986 elements into the 1983 engine. The heads can be changed as long as it's not obvious and all the emissions hookups are still visually functional.

    The basic road map to that is Cale's 84 Capri 5.7 liter Stroker which has functioning evaporative emissions and a purge canister, despite a non Bowel Vent carb.

    Like yours, an Edelbrock 4 bbl without any bowel vent. That technically won't be allowable , but you can still have a vapour return line, just not a bowel vent.


    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...vap-components


    The IM Test has to pass, and it had to meet the visual inspection.

    Two other posts which will help you on addition to Jims always stalwart advice are:-

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...i-build-Thread


    Quote Originally Posted by BaconB8 View Post
    Fun thread from way back.

    Since my reply in 2012, I built an emission passing 85 using the Eddy performer egr, and made 280/320 to the tires with a stock cam. Its a .030 302 as well, so no stroker. The car passes with a 4180c, but dyno'd with a 1850. The dyno session was with an offroad-h as well.

    The car looks and sounds stock.

  8. #8

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    May I ask OP, why don't you just get Historic or Street Rod tags? $50 for Street Rod & $51 for Historic. No emissions, no MD state inspection, obviously way cheaper registration every 2 years, and with Street Rod tags the car is modified beyond the way it came from the factory. Also, i'm from MD, so I was happy I didn't have to ever go back to VEIP again for that particular car.
    1986 Mustang GT -DGM- Trick Flow 360 HP Top End Kit. TF 170CC Heads, TF Track Max Cam, TF TM Intake
    1999 Mustang GT -Garrett 67mm Turbo, E85 on 18lbs, Built SB, Cammed, 03 Cobra IRS, 675 RWHP- SOLD
    2013 Subaru WRX -FMS TMIC, Cobb AP, Full TBE -Catted DP, Whiteline Suspension Mods, 308/339-TOTALED.
    2012 Mustang GT -SCT X3 Bama Can Tune, JLT CAI, Barton Short Throw Shifter, Roush Axle Back -SOLD.

  9. #9

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    Of course you may ask! My understanding - and correct me if I'm wrong - is that those tags are for limited-use cars only. This will be my son's daily driver so I didn't think the car "qualified" for those tags.


    Quote Originally Posted by BoostMasterZero View Post
    May I ask OP, why don't you just get Historic or Street Rod tags? $50 for Street Rod & $51 for Historic. No emissions, no MD state inspection, obviously way cheaper registration every 2 years, and with Street Rod tags the car is modified beyond the way it came from the factory. Also, i'm from MD, so I was happy I didn't have to ever go back to VEIP again for that particular car.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by bgettel View Post
    Of course you may ask! My understanding - and correct me if I'm wrong - is that those tags are for limited-use cars only. This will be my son's daily driver so I didn't think the car "qualified" for those tags.

    Yes, technically you are right as I have my car insured with Hagerty collector car insurance and I marked down that I only take the car out on weekends or nice days. I also put down that I estimate I will only place about 2000 miles on the car per year. I placed down all that information and thought I was going to place around 5000 miles per year, but what I actually wrote down before getting coverage for my car was pretty much accurate. I bought my car in January this year. Since then i've placed about 1300 miles on the car this year (I keep the actual mileage in the car). The truth is, I actually do only take the car out when it is a nice day or the weekend and I have free time. Otherwise it just sits in my garage, since it has somehow remained rust-free (minus a nickel size spot on the hatch) for 35 years and i'd like to keep it that way. Another thing, Hagerty isn't just collector car insurance anymore, they insurance every car under the moon, from a Toyota Prius with full comprehensive coverage to actual collector car insurance like my car. You can adjust everything from total mileage a year you want coverage, value of the car you want to change the coverage you pay, etc. I only pay $358 a year for my car. My friend who also has an 86 GT, that is modded, a bit more than mine with a 331 stroker and a TKO500 rather my crappy T5 pays about the same through Hagerty.

    I have noticed quite a few cars locally with historic tags and they aren't old Mustangs and Camaros. Since historic tags are 20 years and street rods require 25 years + the car is supposed to be altered quite significantly compared to how it came from the factory. Just thinking recently, I saw a bone stock Subaru Outback and an Acura Integra (both probably 1998-2001) that had some horrible exhaust with historic tags. I have quite a few friends who I knew since high school and they went down the path of working at shops like Mercedes, Toyota, Audi/Porsche, and 2 of them, including me, used to work at gas shops like Shell, Exxon, etc. Actually I used to work at Chrysler/Jeep, before my local one went out of business post 2008 when they got bailed out and started cutting thousands of deadweight which they considered. Anyways the general consensus is, don't drive like an idiot on Historic tags, be cordial to the cop that pulls you over.

    I hope your son's job is close by is all I can say though. My job is about 4-6 miles, 12-15 miles round trip, depending on the way back I take, and I rarely take my Mustang to work as i'm afraid some issue will pop up. I did solve some electrical issues when I replaced that crap OEM 75 amp alternator and bought a 130 amp PA Performance and have never had the car die on me again after letting it sit for hours and hours, plus I also bought a new OEM Ford Motorcraft battery.

    Also if he's DD the car, I would add cats anyways, I admit I like having an O/R H-pipe and the noxious smell every time I take it out, but it would way too much to handle every day.

    Up to you man. I was so happy to pay $358 a year. I was paying low $3000 a year for my 2013 WRX, it was different as I bought the car new and I even kept full coverage on the car, which turned out to be a good thing since I totaled the car last summer and surprisingly the insurance company payed out the top KBB value on the car. I was really surprised, but I wasn't going to question that, and they sent out the check in about 3 weeks.

    Just weigh whats best and I don't know who is paying for insurance on the car and how much of a DD it is. My WRX was my DD, but I drove it to work every day, and it pretty much sat at home the rest of the time unless I was getting groceries or running errands. The car only had 41k original miles.
    1986 Mustang GT -DGM- Trick Flow 360 HP Top End Kit. TF 170CC Heads, TF Track Max Cam, TF TM Intake
    1999 Mustang GT -Garrett 67mm Turbo, E85 on 18lbs, Built SB, Cammed, 03 Cobra IRS, 675 RWHP- SOLD
    2013 Subaru WRX -FMS TMIC, Cobb AP, Full TBE -Catted DP, Whiteline Suspension Mods, 308/339-TOTALED.
    2012 Mustang GT -SCT X3 Bama Can Tune, JLT CAI, Barton Short Throw Shifter, Roush Axle Back -SOLD.

  11. #11

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    Your car is older than 1995 and doesn't need emission inspections in Maryland.

  12. #12
    FEP Senior Member OX1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 63roundbody View Post
    Your car is older than 1995 and doesn't need emission inspections in Maryland.
    That is how jersey does it, nothing with OBD 1. They have no way to connect and early version have no CE light anyway. They gave up on any kind of actual emission testing or the dyno thing (that thankfully never really got off the ground). With how stuff rots out near me, just not that many survived well enough to be any kind of DD, so what is there total emission contributions sitting in garages 99.999999999% of the time.
    86 Capri, 5.0, 5Spd, A9L QH/BE, 47 lb Inj PMAS 3" MAF, Single T44 Turbo, Front Mount IC, TW170,
    Stock Cam, Explr Intake/TB, 1.7 Rockers, CF dual friction clutch, 3" DP, 2.5" full Exh, 3.27, 11.932 @ 115.78
    84 LTD, 331-10:1, TW170/Exprl Intake, 47 lbs inj/80 mm LMAF, Full Duals, Quarterhorse, Vortech 7PSI, Lentech AOD, 5 lug Mk VII brakes/rear, Eibach Sway bars, Cobra HB (dads ride, but I fix it )

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by OX1 View Post
    That is how jersey does it, nothing with OBD 1. They have no way to connect and early version have no CE light anyway. They gave up on any kind of actual emission testing or the dyno thing (that thankfully never really got off the ground). With how stuff rots out near me, just not that many survived well enough to be any kind of DD, so what is there total emission contributions sitting in garages 99.999999999% of the time.
    Lol, ain't that the truth.

  14. #14
    FEP Power Member Saturn V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FB71 View Post
    I'm a MD VEIP Certified tech.

    1. To remain legal? All must stay.
    2. No. The only thing they do not need is secondary air pumped into the catalyst bed.
    3. No. Cats MUST be present during visual inspection. Their absence is an immediate fail.
    4. No. EGT isn't that much higher with ceramic coating.
    5. To get through emissions, all equipment must be present and functional.

    Removing the secondary air pump only gains single digit horsepower at peak RPM on a stock engine. Dyno proven on a MD150.
    EGR does not affect HP at all, during WOT. EGR is disabled during WOT.
    Tank and carb bowl vent to charcoal canister have no affect on HP. They are for key-off evaporative emissions.
    I know the Winsor Sr heads have secondary air ports, but not sure about the Rousch, haven't used them.
    The Edelbrock carb you've chosen isn't emissions compliant, due to the lack of an external bowl vent, and its out-of-the-box calibration.

    Now, with that said; MD no longer emission tests vehicles prior to 1996. However, during initial safety inspection, all emissions equipment must be present for it to pass. Most current inspectors have no idea what they're looking at when it comes to carbureted vehicles, so if it appears to have the equipment in place and connected, they'll most likely pass it.

    On a personal note, I don't agree with removing the emissions equipment. Most folks remove it because they simply don't understand it. I'm in process of hunting down all the emissions components for my '83 GT, just to prove I can make reliable, daily driven power, and still be compliant.

    Happy wrenching!
    Excellent post. People get confused and think that because their state/county doesnít require sniff tests on their older car or because the inspectors donít look very closely at emissions equipment that itís ok to remove it. Removal of this equipment violates federal law, and likely state law, too. My 84 5.0 4V is 99% emissions compliant. I need to reinstall the air snorkel heat riser tubes and fix the snorkel diverter valves.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Present: '84.5 Mustang GT T-top, '06 Mazdaspeed6
    Past: '79 5.0 Capri, '86 Buick GN, '90 Mustang GT, '92 SHO, '95 SHO
    Browse cover pages of my Fox Chassis related library

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