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  1. #51
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    Okay, so... lets recap.

    I got the correct ASF-42C plugs, gapped them at 0.045" and ran the wires in the non-HO firing order and the car had started and the timing was (in hindsight) a little too advanced. It still seemed to be idling good so I took it around the block and the backfiring started when decelerating and I limped it home.

    The nexy day it didn't seem to get the proper idle and it sounded "off".

    I started again checking for spark.

    First, I pulled each plug and noted they were already sooted from just minutes of run time. Using the spark tester connected to each wire and to ground on the block each sparked the "recommended" 30K volt gap and lit the induction light to what seemed the proper frequency while cranking.

    WHen I hook everything up and start it, the idle still sounds "off", the induction light lights up sporatically/intermittently on many cylinders especially 1-4. On a whim, I tried the HO firing order and that runs markedly worse. For reference I'm sure this is the cam the builder put in it in the 90's . 31-218-2 http://www.compperformancegroupstore..._Code=SBHFTCHE

    From CompCams: The firing order for the early 221-302 engines and the early 5.0 engines is 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8 This is the firing order for all prefix “31” cams and is the standard replacement cam for all early engines. The later 5.0 engine and all 351 engines are designed to use the 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 firing order. This is the firing order for all prefix “35” cams, and cams ordered for these engines should use this prefix. Other than the firing order, the cams are identical. By changing the spark plug wiring at the distributor these cams can be interchanged.

    I think I'm good on the firing order. When I put the inductor on the coil to cap wire, it seems the pulses are quick, uniform and not "missing" like it is for the individual wires to the cylinders.

    Next on the agenda:

    Try my old cap.
    Check the balancer hasn't slipped and TDC is TDC.
    Pull the distributor again and try one tooth either way of where I have it.

    I'm losing some ambition on this...

  2. #52
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    for the record, i never said i thought you had a bent valve, I merely pointed out normal issues associated with backfiring through the intake. running too lean wont cause that fyi, a miss yes (not an issue with your plug readings) but not a backfire.

    but, tight valve lash can mimic a bent or burnt valve..

    i will point out also that moving the dizzy gear a tooth in any direction should not make any difference if you are properly setting base timing with a light once installed.

    not definitive but grab the outer ring of the balancer and try to turn it, it should not budge. that wont guarantee it hasn't spun but its an easy check to do.

    at this point i would like you to go back over what the exact changes you made when you repaired the distributor. So, it went from a running car with a "stuck" (no mechanical and/or vacuum advance or you couldn't physically rotate the housing?) and you did x, y and z and are at the current point?
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by stormy69 View Post
    for the record, i never said i thought you had a bent valve, I merely pointed out normal issues associated with backfiring through the intake. running too lean wont cause that fyi, a miss yes (not an issue with your plug readings) but not a backfire.

    but, tight valve lash can mimic a bent or burnt valve..

    i will point out also that moving the dizzy gear a tooth in any direction should not make any difference if you are properly setting base timing with a light once installed.

    not definitive but grab the outer ring of the balancer and try to turn it, it should not budge. that wont guarantee it hasn't spun but its an easy check to do.

    at this point i would like you to go back over what the exact changes you made when you repaired the distributor. So, it went from a running car with a "stuck" (no mechanical and/or vacuum advance or you couldn't physically rotate the housing?) and you did x, y and z and are at the current point?
    Thanks for the input stormy. I will check the balancer for any movement but it seems good based on TDC, zero on the balancer and stabbing the dist. in with the marks on it and the block lined up. I'm leery to jump into pulling valve covers to check lashes at this juncture but I may have to soon.

    A little back timeline:
    - The car was running (albeit rich and a little boggy off the line-with no backfiring) when I brought it home to check and adjust the timing.
    - the vacuum advance did not appear to be functioning and it was replaced with a parts store replacement
    - That is when it was noted the dist. was stuck (would not rotate in the block)
    - tried to unstick it with a few (not so hard) whacks with a hammer and a long chisel/drift to the dist. near the base (which had no effect to loosen it)
    - removed the AC compressor and bracket to access the square under the dist. adaptor
    - used penetrant over a couple of days and the dist. broke free and rotated easily
    - hooked up the plug wires (found out later to be the wrong order) and the car would not fire or start
    - testing of circuits commenced
    - one test questioned the mag pick up and then I decided to pull the dist. to replace the pick up
    - pick up was replaced without issue and everything appeared to be mechanically sound and the dist. was reinstalled.
    - still no start and more diagnosis ensued and then I replaced the module.
    - still no start. Somewhere in here it was noted I wrote the incorrect firing order down. Changed to HO and nothing. Changed to non-HO and that is when the car started.

  4. #54
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    POKE POKE (on the shoulder).......check/change your dist cap. If anything, it will eliminate the super easy and I will be quiet on that LOL!
    Brock
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by 84StangSVT View Post
    POKE POKE (on the shoulder).......check/change your dist cap. If anything, it will eliminate the super easy and I will be quiet on that LOL!
    Did that Brock. No change. Tried the old Standard rotor and then the new Motorcraft one too.

    I redid the spark check with the tester (jumping the gap at around 30K volts) from the spark plug wire to ground and there seemed to be no issue and the gun picks it up and flashes.

    When I hook the plug back up and crank, the spark is intermittent.

    I pulled the plug again, kept the wire hooked up, clamped it to the header (no helper to turn the key for me) and cranked. Spark it very weak/intermittent. I have the gaps currently at 0.045".

    Tonight I want to check the engine grounds even though there seems to be no issue when I did a quick check with the VOM.

  6. #56
    FEP Super Member 84StangSVT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 82GTforME View Post
    Did that Brock. No change. Tried the old Standard rotor and then the new Motorcraft one too.

    I redid the spark check with the tester (jumping the gap at around 30K volts) from the spark plug wire to ground and there seemed to be no issue and the gun picks it up and flashes.

    When I hook the plug back up and crank, the spark is intermittent.

    I pulled the plug again, kept the wire hooked up, clamped it to the header (no helper to turn the key for me) and cranked. Spark it very weak/intermittent. I have the gaps currently at 0.045".

    Tonight I want to check the engine grounds even though there seems to be no issue when I did a quick check with the VOM.
    I figured you did Darran.....I just wanted to confirm it since you hadn't mentioned it.

    I think checking the grounds would be my next move. Make sure they are tight on CLEAN metal and none are broken or missing. You might also check your distributor mount hold down and distributor base for clean metal to metal contact. Out of curiosity, you could hook up a temporary ground, after verifying there is no gunk, paint, corrosion between the metal to metal surfaces on the distributor, from the negative battery post to the distributor hold down and see if that helps the spark. If it does, you have a ground issue at the distributor. Just a couple other easy things to try and help narrow this down.
    Last edited by 84StangSVT; 10-16-2015 at 12:19 PM.
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  7. #57
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    I pulled the distributor again the other day to do another inspection and to ensure it is stabbed in correctly.

    Here is the "damage" that was done to it when it was stuck and I tapped at it. I can't see this damage being enough to affect operation but I could be wrong.



    Everything else appears to be functioning correctly. I did not use an analog meter but I still got VAC fluctuations through the pick up as I am "supposed to".


    Last edited by 82GTforME; 10-17-2015 at 09:19 AM.

  8. #58
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    Here is where I reinstalled the distributor again.

    Found TDC with the finger over the #1 plug hole to find the compression stroke. Initial timing at 12 degrees BTDC. Bottom line is zero, then ten and then the top mark is 12 degrees. The balancer seems fine, not loose or slipped from what I can gather.



    I installed the distributor at this point and everything seemed good. I was re-reading the manual to ensure I had everything right but noticed that even though the rotor was pointing to the number one position the stator was not lining up with the pick-up as it stated it should. The book states that for every half-tooth out the timing is out over 7 degrees. Unfortunately, I did not check the relationship prior to pulling it this time so I do not know how it was before.



    I pulled it again, rotated it slightly and reinstalled. This seems proper no? Number 1 cylinder at TDC, 12 degrees base timing, rotor pointing at the number one position and the stator and pick-up lined up. The factory marks are also lining up from the distributor housing to the block.



  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by 84StangSVT View Post
    I figured you did Darran.....I just wanted to confirm it since you hadn't mentioned it.

    I think checking the grounds would be my next move. Make sure they are tight on CLEAN metal and none are broken or missing. You might also check your distributor mount hold down and distributor base for clean metal to metal contact. Out of curiosity, you could hook up a temporary ground, after verifying there is no gunk, paint, corrosion between the metal to metal surfaces on the distributor, from the negative battery post to the distributor hold down and see if that helps the spark. If it does, you have a ground issue at the distributor. Just a couple other easy things to try and help narrow this down.
    So I changed the ground cable out with a NOS one I had. Bench testing the resisitance between the old and new gave me what seemed like a difference between them. I cleaned the connections all up and gave it a try.

    Still the same poor spark when grounding the plug to the manifold. And here I thought I was on to something

    Going back from the cap, I am going to look into the coil again. Even though the resistance numbers seemed close to what I should have, it is fairly cheap to get an over the counter one to try I suppose.

    It is odd that when I got the firing order corrected and the car started, it seemed to be firing "okay" and the timing gun was lighting up as it "should". Now there is a weak or non-existent spark which doesn't light it.

  10. #60
    FEP Power Member bridgener's Avatar
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    I was thinking that maybe your timing chain skipped, but reading your last post kinda ruled that one out. I've got nothing to add really, this is quite the stumper.
    Brian

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  11. #61

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    What's wrong with this pic?


    What's up with that possible ground terminal at the grommet, which isn't fastened to anything?


    And isn't one of your early notches a factory 5.0? If you're frustrated enough to switch some parts between the two cars, you might stumble upon the revelation you're looking for.
    '88 Mustang GT convertible, T5, 3.08:1 gears. 5.0 Explobra Jet: A9L Mass Air conversion, Fenderwell Mac cold air intake, 70mm MAF meter = 4.6 T-Bird/Cougar housing + '95 Mustang F2VF-12B579-A1A sensor, aftermarket 70mm throttle body and spacer, Explorer intakes, GT40P heads with Alex's Parts springs and drilled for thermactor, Crane F3ZE-6529-AB 1.7 "Cobra" roller rockers, Ford Racing P50 headers, Mac H-pipe, Magnaflow catback, Walbro 190 LPH fuel pump, UPR firewall adjuster and quadrant with Ford OEM cable, 3G conversion ('95 Mustang V6), Taurus fan, rolled on Rustoleum gloss white paint...
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  12. #62
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    nothing

    Quote Originally Posted by grabbergreen84 View Post
    What's wrong with this pic?


    What's up with that possible ground terminal at the grommet, which isn't fastened to anything?


    And isn't one of your early notches a factory 5.0? If you're frustrated enough to switch some parts between the two cars, you might stumble upon the revelation you're looking for.
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  13. #63
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    is the advance plate moving freely?

    your issue isn't spark, its spark timing, probably lol. so don't keep chasing issues you have proven good.

    to run;
    air, fuel, spark... and... compression, correct cam timing and correct spark timing.

    you have air fuel and spark, as well as compression, it runs and you drove it. the other 2 are whats left to validate.

    Your initial timing seems to be properly set. since you didn't have a valve lash change during all of this i would take that off the table as well. ruling out a t chain issue has not occurred. at this point, i am going to guess advance plate issues. unhook the vac advance arm and see if the plate turns smoothly and returns to its original position easily on its own. any idea how much vacuum advance that can is giving ( i just noticed the 12 on the arm, that should be 12 degrees)? is it connected to a timed or full vacuum source? unhook the vacuum line and see what that does with it running.

    if that checks out you need to verify valve (aka cam) timing is correct.
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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by grabbergreen84 View Post
    What's wrong with this pic?

    What's up with that possible ground terminal at the grommet, which isn't fastened to anything?
    That is the way it was. It must be a universal fit for other applications. The eyelet without the screw is one piece and is attached and part of the other one so it is properly grounded.

    Quote Originally Posted by grabbergreen84 View Post
    And isn't one of your early notches a factory 5.0? If you're frustrated enough to switch some parts between the two cars, you might stumble upon the revelation you're looking for.
    Good idea. It is stored in a neighbors garage down the alley. I may grab the coil at least for starters. Not that I am believing all of them but some of the tests I did of course pointed to the harness wiring between the module and the distributor. There was a perfect donor for a harness on a 4.2L 81 Zephyr at the JY but someone took the dizzy and cut the wiring I hadn't thought of switching but I will keep that for a back up plan now!

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by stormy69 View Post
    is the advance plate moving freely?

    your issue isn't spark, its spark timing, probably lol. so don't keep chasing issues you have proven good.

    to run;
    air, fuel, spark... and... compression, correct cam timing and correct spark timing.

    you have air fuel and spark, as well as compression, it runs and you drove it. the other 2 are whats left to validate.

    Your initial timing seems to be properly set. since you didn't have a valve lash change during all of this i would take that off the table as well. ruling out a t chain issue has not occurred. at this point, i am going to guess advance plate issues. unhook the vac advance arm and see if the plate turns smoothly and returns to its original position easily on its own. any idea how much vacuum advance that can is giving ( i just noticed the 12 on the arm, that should be 12 degrees)? is it connected to a timed or full vacuum source? unhook the vacuum line and see what that does with it running.

    if that checks out you need to verify valve (aka cam) timing is correct.
    Good ideas. I did change the original advance at the beginning of this trek so that may be a good place to check. I am also pretty sure it is hooked up to the full vacuum not timed on the carb but I'll double check. I'll check the advance and make sure it is rotating freely too. I will likely have to bite the bullet and get to the valve lashes also.

    Can you explain a little what this means? "you need to verify valve (aka cam) timing is correct"

    Thanks again Stormy. I'll be a master at this soon!

  16. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by 82GTforME View Post
    I am also pretty sure it is hooked up to the full vacuum not timed on the carb but I'll double check.
    The vacuum advance should be connected to the special vacuum bung on the carburetor.
    All of the vacuum sources on the manifold, as well as all except one on the carb, will provide regular manifold vacuum, and that is not what you want. If your V.A. is indeed receiving manifold vacuum, then it is advancing at idle and when the throttle is mostly closed. Then when you open the throttle, it returns to base timing, or whatever the mechanical advance is making.

    You want the V.A. plumbed to the proper ported vacuum port on the carb, so that the V.A. will add advance when it should, and the car will run much better.
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    i was posing the question for other reasons really, some cars like full vacuum, others prefer timed spark, primarily due to pre-ignition issues in my experience. i just helped someone locally get their 66 mustang back on the road, the advance plate was unpredictable, not stuck but sticky and wouldn't always fully return or advance consistently. disassembled, cleaned and lubed fixed that. His car liked full vacuum... it can allow for a reduced idle screw setting once connected (less fuel required to idle) so better mpg. his vac can was only giving 8 degrees of advance max though.

    i know you are questioning some wiring, imho it is highly unlikely from your posts so i would move forward and look back only if you don't find the issue elsewhere. if it were an intermittent wire problem, you would be more likely to have a miss, it wouldn't run or it would die.

    unhooking vacuum and seeing how it runs can help diagnose ignition timing issues, and is probably the easiest job you will have had to do thus far . it will likely be down on power but if it is related could stop the backfire issue. do you have a dial back to zero light?

    cam timing: you are going to have to bite the bullet and pull the timing cover and verify the chain hasn't slipped. this i would save for last.
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    So, I gave another last attempt to do something last week. The vacuum advance is fully actuated at 9" of vacuum with the pump on it but cannot see on the balancer how much advance I was getting. I still cannot get a regular pulse out of the timing gun on number one to check the timing correctly it seems.

    Seems to run better on full vacuum not ported also.

    This has distracted me from another project for enough hours over the summer and into the fall. I covered it up and will hopefully get to checking the valve lashes and timing gear in the spring.

    Thanks again to everyone for the input and patience!

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    Thinking more about it, I'd be willing to bet that your timing chain jumped. Happened to my friend's 351w powered '69 coupe, with the same symptoms as yours. It ran very rough when it started at all, and it confused the hell out of him because he had fuel and spark.

    Either way, putting the car away for the winter gives you time to save for more parts. Double roller timing set, and while you're at it why not do a cam swap too? Maybe even throw on some GT40P's...
    Brian

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    Well, I'M BAAACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by stormy69 View Post
    cam timing: you are going to have to bite the bullet and pull the timing cover and verify the chain hasn't slipped. this i would save for last.
    Quote Originally Posted by bridgener View Post
    Thinking more about it, I'd be willing to bet that your timing chain jumped. Happened to my friend's 351w powered '69 coupe, with the same symptoms as yours. It ran very rough when it started at all, and it confused the hell out of him because he had fuel and spark.
    It's been a few months but I finally got a free moment to take the front end apart to inspect the gears.

    This was a Cloys set I put on a few years and a thousand or less miles ago. I had to check to ensure I wasn't chasing something I couldn't find.

    I can't see anything amiss, can you? I rolled it to zero degrees TDC on the compression stroke before I pulled it all apart.





    Once it is all together and roll it to 12 degrees TDC, the stator and rotor should be lined up properly as specified.



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    I hope it goes back together leak free like the last and only time I put this one together.

    Once I get it together I am going to double check the stator and rotor marks at the proper base timing mark.

    After that I suppose I try to start it up OR check the lashes as Stormy suggests to rule that out too.

    I really want to drive this this year!

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    timing set looks proper.
    the only thing that caught my eye: is that arc tracking on the side of the cap adapter(4th photo down)?

    don't sweat the alignment of the pickup, as long as it, and the reluctor, is installed correctly you can adjust for that while setting base timing with a light. when talking ~10 crank degrees, that amount of play is totally possible by the time it gets to the dizzy shaft.
    66 7 Liter Galaxie 4 sale
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  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by stormy69 View Post
    timing set looks proper.
    the only thing that caught my eye: is that arc tracking on the side of the cap adapter(4th photo down)?

    don't sweat the alignment of the pickup, as long as it, and the reluctor, is installed correctly you can adjust for that while setting base timing with a light. when talking ~10 crank degrees, that amount of play is totally possible by the time it gets to the dizzy shaft.
    Thanks stormy. I'm hoping to get this back together this weekend after cleaning all of the surfaces during the week. I decided to change the oil while I am at it and realized I never had another filter around so I was stalled. The old oil smelled very gassy.

    Interesting about the arc you pointed out. I had noticed it but actually thought that it was from a previous mark on the housing to denote #1.




    I also pulled and cleaned all of the plugs; again. A lot of carbon fouling.



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    at this point, i think you have carb issues that are greater than the perceived ignition issues.

    1. oil smells "gassy" aka fuel contamination.. this is an issue when the carb is dumping fuel. i would bet that a needle is sticking...

    2. the carbon on the plugs verifies excessive fuel is reaching the combustion chamber.

    so... at this point you need to deal with the carb first. doing so could eliminate both problems.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stormy69 View Post
    at this point, i think you have carb issues that are greater than the perceived ignition issues.

    1. oil smells "gassy" aka fuel contamination.. this is an issue when the carb is dumping fuel. i would bet that a needle is sticking...

    2. the carbon on the plugs verifies excessive fuel is reaching the combustion chamber.

    so... at this point you need to deal with the carb first. doing so could eliminate both problems.
    Thanks again Stormy!

    Had a small set back with the water pump install so I had to strip back down to redo that part. I have a new gasket on order Probably lucky the first time I put it all together a few years ago. Of course I couldn't be so lucky the second time.

    As to the fuel issue. It is a fairly new (3 year old) Quick Fuel HR-680-VS. I recall having some fuel bowl level issues with it. They would fluctuate from the middle to above the sight glass. I seemed to be changing the level steadily for the first bit. I put a gauge on last fall but haven't had a real chance monitor fuel pressure. Could something be not working properly inside to cause the level fluctuation?

    I also had issues with trying to set the mixtures for optimal vacuum and RPM. It seemed to get good, then I would drive it for a bit and when I stopped, the idle would be higher and I would have to adjust again. IIRC though it was around 12-14".

    I think I brought it up earlier about the carb maybe being too big but symptoms led me into the ignition system.

    Can too much fuel in a cylinder prevent an actual sparking of the plug? If so, this may be part of the reason I was having what seemed like intermittant firing of the timing gun??

    Apologies for all of the rookie troubleshooting questions but I really want to get this car running right...on my own!

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