ordered Marti Report

[eeprete]

Yes. It's called the original post. 7 months. Plus 4 years of empty promises for years 80-89.

If that isn't being "difficult", I don't know what is.

If the business you seek to do business with doesn't do things in an acceptable manner to you, you have a choice of:

a) do not do business with them
b) do business with an alternate company or service provider that operates in the manner you wish
c) do business on their terms

pretty simple.

Given the fact Ford has entrusted Kevin Marti and his company with the data they have, and this has not been provided to anyone else to provide similar services (and likely will not be provided to anyone else), then we simply have to play by his rules.

Given a customer is not billed until it's time for product delivery, then any claims for failure to deliver a product are unfounded.

Frustrating? Perhaps.
Life altering, hardly.

[85GTTops]

I totally understand Ed. But what I'm trying to get across is that Ford entrusted their data to a company with alterior motives for "harvesting" the data in the first place. This is not a simple issue of "we're working on it and we're slow so be patient". Start at 79, then just stop? Odd, don't you think?

I don't think Ford ever expected Kevin and Co to sit on the data. I can certainly ask, and I will certainly get an answer from Ford directly. Perhaps they know all about this. Perhaps they do not. They may say they don't care, but rest assured, they do. Collectibles drive current sales. There are certainly more reasons to sit on the data than to release it. Examples:

1. They are one of the largest 60's muscle car restoration companies out there.
2. The bread and butter for Marti Auto Works is 64-73 Mustangs. Nothing more. Nothing less.
3. It's a lot of work to process this data, especially if you don't service the market you're getting data for.
4. They don't know the fox body market. If they did, they would be making plenty of reproduction parts for it and providing data to it.
5. The latest retro body style for the Mustangs has certainly boosted collector value and their market share. Adding another "retro" option they are not familiar with will drop market share.
6. Adding Fox Mustangs as collector cars by revealing data puts fox body collectibles in direct competition with that bread and butter.
7. They don't see a large demand for fox body Mustang parts and information.
8. But they do see an opportunity for another mini "Mustang Boom" and they could lose a lot of money over it.

Don't hold your breath on this guys. Do not expect to see any data past 1980 from MAW, if that. Tell me I'm wrong after the data is released. I couldn't be happier if they did. It will be a nice day to finally see the fox bodies at collector status.

But being nice to the fox in the hen house ain't going to get you more eggs. Now you know where I'm coming from, so it's time for me to bow out of this thread.

[85mcLaren]

I totally understand what some of your topics above are saying. I work in politics everyday and have see "junk" everyday, but if we go with that theory:

It doesn't make sense to me why Marti would release a 79. A 79 would at some point be worth something since it was the first year of the fox mustang. Why not release the most numbered year just to get something out (something like the 88s) - in what could be the most non-desired year since they made too many of them ?

Jason

[eeprete]

I totally understand Ed. But what I'm trying to get across is that Ford entrusted their data to a company with alterior motives for "harvesting" the data in the first place. This is not a simple issue of "we're working on it and we're slow so be patient". Start at 79, then just stop? Odd, don't you think?

I don't think Ford ever expected Kevin and Co to sit on the data. I can certainly ask, and I will certainly get an answer from Ford directly. Perhaps they know all about this. Perhaps they do not. They may say they don't care, but rest assured, they do. Collectibles drive current sales. There are certainly more reasons to sit on the data than to release it. Examples:

1. They are one of the largest 60's muscle car restoration companies out there.
2. The bread and butter for Marti Auto Works is 64-73 Mustangs. Nothing more. Nothing less.
3. It's a lot of work to process this data, especially if you don't service the market you're getting data for.
4. They don't know the fox body market. If they did, they would be making plenty of reproduction parts for it and providing data to it.
5. The latest retro body style for the Mustangs has certainly boosted collector value and their market share. Adding another "retro" option they are not familiar with will drop market share.
6. Adding Fox Mustangs as collector cars by revealing data puts fox body collectibles in direct competition with that bread and butter.
7. They don't see a large demand for fox body Mustang parts and information.
8. But they do see an opportunity for another mini "Mustang Boom" and they could lose a lot of money over it.

Don't hold your breath on this guys. Do not expect to see any data past 1980 from MAW, if that. Tell me I'm wrong after the data is released. I couldn't be happier if they did. It will be a nice day to finally see the fox bodies at collector status.

But being nice to the fox in the hen house ain't going to get you more eggs. Now you know where I'm coming from, so it's time for me to bow out of this thread.

Jeff, some of your statements pretty much nullify others.

1. Yes, 100% correct

2. Yes, 100% correct again

3. The data is the data, it's there, it exists, its at a point where if its not stored, it needs to be entered into whatever system or database they may have, however with your first two points above, with the early cars being the bread and butter, no real need to rush, correct? After all, if Marti sells 100 Fox Gen reports versus 1000 Gen 1s where do you think he will expend his efforts?

4. Are we talking about the same data? Data doesn't produce parts. And if parts aren't that in demand, why would anyone invest a great deal of time, money and effort to do so (beyond passion, loyalty and interest). And these days most part are made in Asia in order for the mfg's to remain profitable to the point of continued product development and production.

And who are we to say what they know and don't know. We don't know what they know. Considering they have the data, maybe they do know. Maybe they already know what we suspect, which is: there isn't as much demand for early fox stuff as the early gen 1 stuff, hence less potential profit, tighter margins, is it worth the risk given the current economic climate?

5. This is false. A retro fox would be an abomination. People want retro original, not retro 3rd or 4th gen cars. Hell, lets have a retro 1985 Buick LeSabre, bc people want that too, no?

No doubt we love our cars, but our cars pretty much became a cultural phenomenon simply on the basis that they were cheap, easy and fast. They were our generations 57 Chevy. People want gen 1 cars bc there is history, because it's the original classic.

6. Fox cars are not nor will ever be in direct competition with the first generation cars. If you believe that, then you might be on that planet others are inferring. They are a different car, a different breed. And while there are many people who can appreciate both, we're talking apples to oranges here and the only common element is the name Mustang.

I could go on and on, but you need to remember that what we find desirable, the general public may not. We will always have that "wow, cool, I had one of these in High School" comments at a cruise night or car show, but if you expect our cars to directly compete and contend with the earliest of Mustangs then I would hate to burst your bubble. There will be examples that are fine examples worthy of recognition and appreciation, but I don't think we'll ever see the same level of interest as those first generation cars.

[85GTTops]

Ed,

Data does produce parts. Before the original parts, very few retro items were available for the 60's Mustangs. Marti Auto Works pretty much ignited the 80's restoration movement.

I also disagree with the "the public doesn't want a retro 80's Mustang" theory. Here's why:

1979-1993:



2011+:



Ford has solitified the existance and the prowess of the 80's 5.0. They don't just revive old monikers if there is a b-flat reaction to it. It has and always will be a favorite among enthusiasts and regular car buyers who are old enough to remember the Mustang-vs-Camaro haydays. They may not have remembered the styling, but they surely remember the performance. The same applies to the original Chrysler platforms that were ugly as sin and fast as hell.

I think some people think the 80's Mustangs aren't worthy of the "collectible" crown for 2 reasons. 1: Owners believe their cars and their parts will be out of reach once the frenzy begins. 2: They feel the lack of love towards the brand means nobody cares. This is far from the truth.

It's all about the perception we have of our own cars. We don't own Opels. We don't own Mustang II's. And we certainly don't own non-desirable cars. I think what makes it a problem for this community is that so many of us don't accept these cars for what they are and want to change them into something they are not. These are not track queens. These are not race cars. They are nice, quick, and attractive cars with a lot of character and unique features every year of production between 1979-1986.

I don't think we are giving our movement enough credit. Do I want a clunky 1965 car? No thank you. I'll take an 85 like mine with the performance and looks that will rival most cars today, 25 years later. Let's cherish our vehicles and stop thinking they aren't worth the value they behold. Because they are, and they are superior to their predecessors.

OK, out of the thread for good. I promise.

[negusm]

I see 85GTTops really didn't bother to understand my reply so I skipped most of his too. It's water under the bridge to me.

Anyway, I think all of this can best be summed up as "SH!T HAPPENS!".

Here is a very nice response he gave me:

Mike,
We run 1979 reports now. I believe the person who thought they heard 2011 for his 79 report is mistaken. As far as 1980 and up reports, its a funding issue. With the economic pullback, we haven't had the ability to fund this project, which is a shame since it is over 80% complete. But I have to pay with real money. Which brings up the point that we have the 79-86 invoices and very few people are buying them. I was informed by certain owners that when I finally made them available, they would sell like crazy, so I invested a huge sum of money to get them shelved, stored, and sorted. But people aren't buying them. Now I wish I had just thrown those invoices away and put the money in the report program. They take up an incredible amount of space that I pay for, so they continue to lose me money. Oh, well. Hindsight is always 20-20. I wish I had better news. Tell people to buy the invoices. If I started selling hundreds of them, I could eventually pay the programmers to finish the report program. Kevin

#1. The OP should call back up and ask about how long it will be for his report and verify he heard correctly. Kevin says that didn't seem right.

#2. If Marti isn't pulling my leg, he's 80% done with the reports (sort of good news as in he's probably NOT going to drop the project). As to why 1979 was done and not the others, I can probably ask. My bet is that Ford boxed everything up in decades. Why anyone would smell a conspiracy theory is beyond me. How many want to guess that when the 80+ reports come out it'll be for 80-89?

#3. The Eminger invoices screwed the whole fricken thing up. From what I understand they were in danger of being lost so he bought them. They aren't selling well and now his storage cost for them is eating into his cash flow.

#4 His frustration is evident. Marti is stuck, the economy sucks and he's not going to invest in the reports until he can do it safely. I don't blame him one bit. Overextension is the number one reason for business failure.

---------------------

I bought my Eminger report tonight. If you want one GET IT NOW. His web site says Sept, there will be a SUBSTANTIAL price hike. I have my fingers crossed he has mine.

-Mike

[FoxChassis]

1.98 million

That's roughly the total production figure for '79 through '86 Capris and Mustangs combined.

Imagine how much money was paid for almost two million invoices. Then consider the task of paying employees to go through those nearly two million invoices, to get some sort of organization done so they could be sold.

Same goes for all of the data, in whatever form it may have been in, from Ford, and organizing it and doing data entry for each of those almost two million records. Not to mention that Marti has production data beyond the '86 model year. Add over one million more to that 1.98M for '87 through '93 Mustang production.

Going through all of that, on top of your regular course of business (1st gen Mustangs, etc.)

Yeah, they're just not moving fast enough....

-------------------

I ordered an Eminger Invoice for my '83 GT tonight too. Thanks for the reminder, Mike.

[Mustang Marty]

Sounds like its time to upgrade to a Elite package and pick up a Emminger report to help keep him motivated. If others with 79's could do the same, the 80-86 may become available sooner.

[In2Fords]

well, I personally feel its HIS company, we cant tell him what to do. If you dont like it, dont buy from there, he still has no obligation to us.
It does suck and I wish this info was available but its not.

On another note I had put the money together to get a invoice and a report, went to his website to pull the trigger and decided he is to ignorant to buy anything from.
this statement is what did it for me

"This is known as a "hidden tax" and is a consequence of the "hope and change" this country wanted."

If he is retarded enough to think that its Obama's fault for trying to pay for things that Bush spent the money on other things he isnt going to be smart enough to get anything correct for me!

but its his company, he has the right to put that there, it's my right as a potential customer to steer clear of ignorant hillbillies or people dumb enough to repeat what they hear even though it doesnt make sense!

[negusm]

"This is known as a "hidden tax" and is a consequence of the "hope and change" this country wanted."

If he is retarded enough to think that its Obama's fault for trying to pay for things that Bush spent the money on other things he isnt going to be smart enough to get anything correct for me!

It's pure frustration. I wish he didn't put that there either but I can empathize with it. There's a lot of anger and frustration to go around these days.

-Mike

[84GT Ragtop]

Alright, this thread and Marti's reply to the questions talked me into finally ordering the Eminger Invoice for my 84. I'll post it when it gets here.

[Mustang Marty]

I just ordered the Eminger Invoice for my 85 ASC. It will be insteresting to see how that was ordered.

[chalkysexplorer]

Ok.....gonna weigh in here. My Emminger invoice is on order, so I'm a Marti supporter and I have two more invoices to order. As for the delay in the availability of 80-up Reports, it's in his reply...programming. The Marti system is designed for the pre-80 vin system. The 9R0%..... vins. To make the data retrieval easier they have had to re-design the programming for the 1FABP..... vin nunbers. Time and Money!!!! I'm willing to wait till they are available and I'm just glad that we are not in the situation of 65 and 66 owners. Those records are gone....forever!!!! Destroyed by Ford back in the day.

Now, the other issue that is being discussed is the inherant value of our cars and where they fit into the Mustang hobby. You need to look at the timeline here. Until the 80's resto boom on 65-70 Mustangs there were virtually NO repro parts available. At that time, a lot of those cars were 20 year old junkers. Hell, I know a guy who sold his 65 Shelby in 1981 for $500!!! Now you can just about build a 65-6 from a parts catalogue!!! It needed that generation who saw them at the World's Fair or who had one in High School or who's Grandma had one to push them to the popularity they have today.

We are getting to that point with Fox cars were we are hitting that point in the timeline. FMR and Fox Resto are the leaders in parts availability but it's still pretty pitiful compared to the earlier cars. There just isn't the demand. What needs to happen, and what I believe will happen, is the kids of the 80's will want that car they were hot for in High School and will turn to the Fox Mustang. We also need a younger generation, those who can't afford and nice 65-73 to get involved. Only then, will we start to see more appreciation and value added to these cars.

It's a perception problem. Most people think Fox mustangs are cheap transport or a good basis for a drag car!!! A lot of people don't even think they LOOK like a Mustang!! Until we start to see some good serious resto's, cause there are a million "Restomods" already of 80's Foxes, I don't think to many people, apart from the serious enthusiasts, will take them more seriously. Even then, it will most likely be the "halo" cars that garner most of the attention. I don't mean to offend anyone but the current trend seems to be that Saleen's (the 80's Shelby) and the SVO (the 80's Boss) are the only cars that are pulling any real money, and even then, they need to be real low mile original cars. I also believe that the 83-6, cars will be forever more popular because that was the dawn of the "modern performance era". I'm ignoring the 87-93's at this stage on purpose.

Also be aware that a change is afoot. NPD will be releasing a 79-93 catalogue this fall. I think this will create a huge change in the quality and availability of repro parts for our cars. Now, this is not to diminish the efforts already made and I will still continue to call FMR because, well, I can get the owner of the phone (a huge plus!!!), but to most people who have a passing interest, this may well be what it takes to get them interested in the Fox Mustangs. Then, and only then, will we see the Fox cars reach anywhere near the level of popularity of the 65-73.

So again, it comes down to business and economics. More interest equals more demand and more demand equals more time invested and more product availability. Either way, I'll wait till I can get a Marti Report for my three cars and I'll happily pay the price of admission. We need to support the people who are, and who may be more willing, to support us and to me this includes MAW.

Sorry for the Essay

[eeprete]

Thanks to Mike for reaching out to Kevin. I too, can empathize and will order them for my cars as well.

-Ed

[mb84gt]

I see 85GTTops really didn't bother to understand my reply so I skipped most of his too. It's water under the bridge to me.

Anyway, I think all of this can best be summed up as "SH!T HAPPENS!".

Here is a very nice response he gave me:


#1. The OP should call back up and ask about how long it will be for his report and verify he heard correctly. Kevin says that didn't seem right.

#2. If Marti isn't pulling my leg, he's 80% done with the reports (sort of good news as in he's probably NOT going to drop the project). As to why 1979 was done and not the others, I can probably ask. My bet is that Ford boxed everything up in decades. Why anyone would smell a conspiracy theory is beyond me. How many want to guess that when the 80+ reports come out it'll be for 80-89?

#3. The Eminger invoices screwed the whole fricken thing up. From what I understand they were in danger of being lost so he bought them. They aren't selling well and now his storage cost for them is eating into his cash flow.

#4 His frustration is evident. Marti is stuck, the economy sucks and he's not going to invest in the reports until he can do it safely. I don't blame him one bit. Overextension is the number one reason for business failure.

---------------------

I bought my Eminger report tonight. If you want one GET IT NOW. His web site says Sept, there will be a SUBSTANTIAL price hike. I have my fingers crossed he has mine.

-Mike

I tried to order an Emminger invoice for my 86 (July build date car). The lady on the phone said they did not have it because it wasn't with the other invoices and they didn't know where they were or if they would ever find them. I don't have a problem with that.


My frustration is in his email response to you. He says it is available and it is NOT!!

Will I order a report when availble for my 86? Of course. I have been excited about the reports since I first heard about them.

[FoxChassis]

As for the delay in the availability of 80-up Reports, it's in his reply...programming. The Marti system is designed for the pre-80 vin system. The 9R0%..... vins. To make the data retrieval easier they have had to re-design the programming for the 1FABP..... vin nunbers.

The '80 model year also had an 11-character VIN. The 17-character VIN didn't start until the '81 model year.

[negusm]

My frustration is in his email response to you. He says it is available and it is NOT!!

These are original documents from my understanding. They were gathered by hand and stuffed into boxes/crates. I am sure more than a few are missing. I am fully prepared to accept that mine will be missing as well since I have a specialty car, and a special build. God only knows if somebody at Ford pulled them as they were made and put them into a special file somewhere.

-Mike

[foxmustangrestoration]

I see 85GTTops really didn't bother to understand my reply so I skipped most of his too. It's water under the bridge to me.

Anyway, I think all of this can best be summed up as "SH!T HAPPENS!".

Here is a very nice response he gave me:


#1. The OP should call back up and ask about how long it will be for his report and verify he heard correctly. Kevin says that didn't seem right.

#2. If Marti isn't pulling my leg, he's 80% done with the reports (sort of good news as in he's probably NOT going to drop the project). As to why 1979 was done and not the others, I can probably ask. My bet is that Ford boxed everything up in decades. Why anyone would smell a conspiracy theory is beyond me. How many want to guess that when the 80+ reports come out it'll be for 80-89?

#3. The Eminger invoices screwed the whole fricken thing up. From what I understand they were in danger of being lost so he bought them. They aren't selling well and now his storage cost for them is eating into his cash flow.

#4 His frustration is evident. Marti is stuck, the economy sucks and he's not going to invest in the reports until he can do it safely. I don't blame him one bit. Overextension is the number one reason for business failure.

---------------------

I bought my Eminger report tonight. If you want one GET IT NOW. His web site says Sept, there will be a SUBSTANTIAL price hike. I have my fingers crossed he has mine.

-Mike

Mike

I would really like to talk to you about this conversation in length. What Marti emailed you is completely different than what I was told by some one over the phone at his company.

PM sent.

[negusm]

Mike

I would really like to talk to you about this conversation in length. What Marti emailed you is completely different than what I was told by some one over the phone at his company.

PM sent.

Sure thing. PM sent.

-Mike

[escogt]

I too ordered an Eminger invoice only to be told that it could not be found. I was disappointed but what can you do?

[foxmustangrestoration]

On a second phone call and talking to someone different I was told that they are sending the invoices if possible.

I will be contacting Kevin directly to see if I can help. I will post an update after I hear back.

Has ANYONE recieved an invoice for a 80-86 Mustang yet???

[FoxChassis]

There are two posted in this thread:

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread.php?t=73676

One on page two and one on page three. There have been a couple posted on the SSP boards.

And those are just ones that have been shared with the rest of us.

[KCoker]

On a second phone call and talking to someone different I was told that they are sending the invoices if possible.

I will be contacting Kevin directly to see if I can help. I will post an update after I hear back.

Has ANYONE recieved an invoice for a 80-86 Mustang yet???

My blue 84 svo is posted on the thread Fox put up.

[negusm]

On a second phone call and talking to someone different I was told that they are sending the invoices if possible.

I will be contacting Kevin directly to see if I can help. I will post an update after I hear back.

Has ANYONE recieved an invoice for a 80-86 Mustang yet???

Matt (FMR) and I talked a bit about the current visibility of this stuff. I have known about Marti Autoworks from the days that I used to chase classic Mustangs. It appears that the current generation of owners that gravitate to the Fox Chassis have almost no knowledge of who he his.

Matt is going to see if he can work on that by using his resto business as leverage. Another reason to buy from FMR!

If you guys haunt any other Mustang web sites. Why not drop the info that there are these invoices out there?

-Mike

[plumkrazy]

I do know that a 1985 Capri got it's report after waiting some time.

I just cannot decide if I should order for My 3cars $$$$$$$$$$$