Carb Turbo M81 Mclaren- ready to start after 15 years!

[m81mclaren]

Thanks again GR I'll play with the timing and test until it's happier. I like your one leg peg!

[gr79]

Thank you much for the progress coverage. Got to keep our rare turbos running good as intended.
A test after after installing a good right rear SVO LCA the week before.
If had boost turned up, prob would have had to pedal the accell. Once the boost kicks in, it really spins like in water.
Most of the time the car has traction and never quite gets to the point of breaking tires real loose in 1st.
Rain and slick surfaces like fresh blacktop are another story to have fun feathering the pedal like it had 400hp.
Has done that rarely on dry street. Spin/rpm/boost at 15 mph.

"Power came from McLaren-worked Ford 2.3-liter turbo engines. The production fours were extracted at McLaren in Livonia for what engine master Wiley McCoy said was a “hot rod tune up,” with head porting and blueprinting for durability and performance."
Maybe could make a contact for more engine info (undocumented non-production engine mods). I live close by to McLaren in Livonia where the engine was done.

[m81mclaren]

CAT is now installed and I actually made it 12 miles home. After thinking about the tuning I decided to get an AEM Wideband to assist with measuring since nobody has the old school EGT stuff anymore. My exhaust shop put the bung on the exhaust crossover pipe about 18" down from the exhaust manifold. I thought it should go on the turbo down-pipe further down near but before the CAT. He said that it would not get good readings after the turbo. Anyone run one on their car successfully and where did you install yours (bung!)?



[QUOTE=gr79;1891731]Can say mine hardly ran at recommended 6° btdc. Too low.
Last i checked it was at about 12-16 at idle. Gave it what it wanted.
Did my engine timing on the road. No light except to check initial at idle and at 2500.
Took dist wrench along. Took days to get it right. Everything was connected.
Snugged dist so it would not move easily but could be turned by hand.
Kept adv dist a bit until spark ping was heard when driven faster than normal for a few seconds.
Got out, opened hood again, backed it off a bit. No audible pinging was acceptable.
After few hours locked dist down for the day. Took a few days of testing.
If any pecking was heard, would reset it then and there if possible.
Picked various conditions, roads normally traveled, hiway and side street normal over a span of weeks.
Pulls smoothly from 1100 floored no knock 87 fuel. Can cruise at 1500. Lowest rpm that boost starts is about 1900.
Boost is turned down to 3-4 max. Detuned.
Ave 20 mpg. No problem with power. Nice torque.
Have not touched timing for over 10 years.

Was a dog when i drove it the first few miles after engine rebuild.
Turned out the reman carb (from Holley) jets were too small. Replaced with larger stock size, engine came alive.

Last time i signed the pavement in June. About a 10 roll in 1st, revved to 2500, dumped clutch. Kept in it for few seconds.
Backed down, turned into 3rd driveway in pic and parked car to sit with friends.

[erratic50]

Cats burn off unspent fuel.

[m81mclaren]

AEM confirmated it should go after Turbo in the downpipe 36 inched away from the Turbo but before the cat. I’ll need to go back for that bung move. Made it to tire shop and had my new 255/60/15’s put on. The young and old guys at the shop were intrigued and asked lots of questions. Got several waves/ thumbs up from a couple mustangs along the drive and even a kid in a Honda Accord who passed me dropped back and gave me a wave and took a cell phone picture. Then the drive home was a special moment, windows rolled down on a scenic road as I realized it was the first time I actually and truly drove this car any real distance since I bought it over 2 decades ago. Strangely just after having drove pretty well for I’d say 20 miles it cut out on me four times and had to coast off to side streets. I was able to get it restarted with much cranking each time so I need to continue troubleshooting this random issue. I’m thinking a maybe clogged filter or dying fuel pump. More to come as I sort out the tuning and try to pass smog. Thanks to all again for helping me get here!

[erratic50]

Two decades! Awesome! Take your kids out for that ride they’ve dreamt of their whole life!

My 86GT has been basically a piece of crap for most of the time my kids remember. My son remembers it being pretty nice still, but my daughter does not. they both cherish the times they got to ride in it. My son so much so that before his senior year of high school he bought his very own 86GT that is nice and took it to a few shows, etc.

Enjoy it as much as you can! Pull molds off the unique pieces to ensure you’ve done your part to preserve a very rare investment just in case something happens and you need them for making repair parts!

[m81mclaren]

Thanks erratic personal enjoyment (and occasional pain to keep us centered!) is why we do this. Hopefully this Sunday will be the show I take my son to with the mustang if I make it through smog today. He told me this morning that my priority today was getting that done rather than going to his football game! He's been there through the whole refurbishment process so far and can't wait for a real ride. He's trolling Craigslist regularly and is partial to the foureyes too so we'll see what happens. Congrats to you as well.

Two decades! Awesome! Take your kids out for that ride they’ve dreamt of their whole life!

My 86GT has been basically a piece of crap for most of the time my kids remember. My son remembers it being pretty nice still, but my daughter does not. they both cherish the times they got to ride in it. My son so much so that before his senior year of high school he bought his very own 86GT that is nice and took it to a few shows, etc.

Enjoy it as much as you can! Pull molds off the unique pieces to ensure you’ve done your part to preserve a very rare investment just in case something happens and you need them for making repair parts!

[gr79]

Great news. 2 decades? wow.
Like its learning to walk..err..drive again. Runs a little wobbly and you taking special care of it.
Tune must be close using up a gallon of gas driving. Long crank prob fuel.
Easy fuel check:
Buy clear Fram G2 fuel filter from WM, install near carb. Temp or permanent install.
Filter mounts with included rubber hose sections slipped over fuel line and carb filter barbs.
Handy as a fuel 'window' to see if fuel is present in the line.

When car stalls, pull air filter lid. Work throttle at carb to see if fuel is squirting into venturis.

Stalls on its own when driving and every time car is restarted after a key off engine stop.
Or on its own, but restarts normal after key off shutdown. 2 different situations may or not be related.

[JKengineering]

Had the same stalling problem when we got our 67. Turned out to be the sock on the pickup in the tank.
Mike

[m81mclaren]

Car stalled while driving an even 35 miles an hour like it was running out of gas. Then on the side of the road cranked and cranked but no fire at all. Then after a few minutes and lots of pedaling I would get it to fire and it would drive a few hundred yards then the same thing. This happened several times but made it home. A few weeks ago when I had it towed home when this happened I thought it jumped the timing belt 2 teeth but in the end my marking assumptions were incorrect and I believe it had not jumped time. I pulled the fuel filter and there was no debris in there so was leaning to fuel pump. I'm buying a fresh replacement fuel filter and a see through filter for the visual and have an unused mechanical fuel pump replacement but I like Mike's suggestion of the pickup filter. It would make sense if I had some crud in the tank (now disturbed with 6 gallons of fresh fuel) the sock gets clogged and starves the engine. Then gravity drops the crud off as pressure bleeds from sitting allowing a start and drive repeating the cycle. Looking back at my post #98 I asked about the pickup filter/sock and believe I put the new one on there. I may have to drop that tank again since it was 2011!

Setting timing?

So I reread my Haynes on properly setting timing and it says to pull and plug the distributor vacuum line and to unplug the ignition module connector. The emissions decal on other M81's (and other 79/80 4cyl cars) makes no mention of pulling the vacuum line but says to unplug the ignition module. Logically it makes sense to me that the base timing is set with the vacuum line pulled/plugged as the distributor would alter timing based on vacuum while driving. Does anyone know specifically which ignition module and which plug on the module needs to be pulled? Without an actual factory service manual it's not clear so maybe I need find a factory manual to be sure.

Also do I set the idle before or after setting the timing? I would think after as changing just the timing alters the idle (too high in my case).

Thanks for feedback as I try and dial her in for smog testing today (and assuming I get this intermittent fueling issue licked).

[m81mclaren]

Installed a new stock type fuel filter as well as a see through in-line filter. Siphoned out my gas tank through a rag and there was very minimal dirt and otherwise clear fuel. Filters filled nicely and were clean. We made it 1/4 mile on the way to the BAR Smog station but it stalled out on me again. I was able to restart after some cranking and drive 50 feet then stall out 2 more times before I could get to safe place off the highway. Had my last AAA tow for the year back home.



My racing buddy Mike who is strong on Pintos and SVO motors was with me and he is a bit stumped. Restarts happened but idle this time had 2 stalls. After 10 minutes it fired back up and idled for 10 minutes no problem. We are leaning towards a fuel pump that is weak under load, the Duraspark ignition box or the distributor pickup.

[m81mclaren]

I know I'm killing the 3 of you still with me with way too much detail as I try and sort this beast! Sorry.

For what it's worth on my car I have the following ignition components (Kendal any chance you can confirm you have the same??)
Duraspark Ignition Control Module- # D8AE 12A244 AB number on face of unit
Distributor # 0F806 E0ZE 12127 BA on tag attached (Single Vacuum inlet)
Coil # D5AE 12029-AB






Seems strange to me that there are early ignition parts on here- ie. D8A for the ICM indicating 1978 & D5A for the coil indicating 1975. Was this a McLaren engines change or is this all stock? Maybe the previous owner swapped some junkyard items to try and fix the same issue way back when?

Looks like there are aftermarket versions of each for my year even on the Motorcraft branded Duraspark type ICM DY893which I may give a go but the wire color sequence seems to be different.

[KevinVarnes]

Those are just part numbers indicating their release date. They could have been made in 1981, but the design was released in 1975 or 1978. For instance my '91 Crown Vic had E5AE cylinder heads on it. Just looking at the pictures and how untouched everything looks those look like they could be original to the car.

[gr79]

Chiming in:

Also agree those car parts look old enough to assume to be correct, replaced or not.

One mine, replaced oem coil with Motorcraft DG-314/D5AZ-12029-AB. I believe AZ and AE interchange.
Coil, module, dist were replaced as part of engine rebuild and overall car redo 1999.
Saved all and stored them in shed.
Replaced entire ign system at rebuild so as to not have issues/doubts on first startup and later on.

Oem dist with tag is buried in the shed with the other parts. Is for year 79 so not same p/n anyway.
Replaced it with Cardone 30-2490 in 1997 during engine rebuild. Also single vac line.

However, looking at your pics, dist. sure looks like a dual vac? The vac adv assy looks wider than mine, like the duals have.
Not the shiny part with single port, but the cast part behind it with the 2nd top port.
And the dual interchange numbers match your tag. The Ford p/n.
https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...stributor,7108

Motorcraft Duraspark modules. They were color coded by the strain reliefs for the wiring. Yellow is dual mode.
Have one in car, one new spare in box. Got spare from swap meet.
Both are stamped D8AE 12A244 AB on the casting, yellow code.
Both have white labels, different spots.
Castings have different looking stamped numbers and cast lettering positions.
Motorcraft numbers printed on box are DY-237-A , D9AZ-12A199-C MODULE ASSY.
Oem, current and spare ICMs have yellow strain reliefs on side of module, three harness connectors.
New ICM module has good wire colors not faded or worn.
Six wires from one yellow strain relief:
One 2 wire harness connector plug pink-red and white
One 4 wire purple, orange, green,black.
Other yellow has 3 wire plug: tan-brown, black, yellow wires.
Connectors have lots of white grease in them as packaged.

Next, checked Rock Auto for 1979 part number accuracy as to what i bought back then per records.
Dist- Cardone- same p/n and cost.
Coil- Motorcraft not listed. Standard Motor Products lists same Ford p/n number for interchange.
ICM module-No Motorcraft listed. Paid 58.00 back in 1999.
Standard LX209 looks to be the only correct one with yellow, 3 connectors, Ford p/n number listed, correct wire coding.

The 1980 listing for ICM 3 connector yellow does not show the Standard brand, only Wells for 2.3T
Wells 6H1094 is also listed but costs more than the LX209.
V8's of that era also used this module.

To confuse things more, there is a DY-297 box with yellow code.
E1AF-12A244AA casting number, p/n E1AZ-12A199A.

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...rock-auto.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duraspark

[82GTforME]

Our early 79 V6 had many older part number items: coil, module, voltage regulator among others D8 and earlier.

And there are more than three following along with the details

[KCoker]

maybe these will help

[jlehma13]

Man, that car looks mean/pi$$ed sitting on the side of the road! Way to keep at it.

[gr79]

From my parts counter experience in that era, special parts details as noted were/are needed to get customer correct parts.
Nothing has really changed since then except pc screen replaced parts catalogs (the books) and microfiche.
And having less parts in stock. Prices/markups are all over the place. Name or house brand can be of equal quality or not.
Beware of cheepo markup copies. Even some name brands sell junk at full price.
Lifetime or limited warranty is one clue, as is no warranty.
Remote viewing the photos 'check' as a parts counter person:

√ yellow colors on module wire outlets, 2x. No known other requirements to match up with.
√ coil p/n clear. Simple interchange.
√ dizzy tag numbers wiped out by flash. Looks like the dual diaphragm version again minus the metal tube, right of tag. Hole is there.
79 2.3T was different. Extended vac adv assy, but with no can like area behind the front diaphragm. Dunno about F/Z turbo engines.

1980 has 2 versions for turbo apps. Seeing above pics, would give you the dual version. Tag number confirms interchange.
Same with module. 'Yellow' 3 plug version, choose which brand. Price does not always reflect quality.Inspection match does.
Store computer may or may not agree on this or have multi choice. Maybe has nothing. Buy what matches exact or near exact.
Not clear why the much more expensive dual dia version is used but not connected. Wonder if the other would work as well?

Wonder if McLaren left the dist mechanical advance curve stock, recurved, blueprinted it? Doubt it but never know.
If left stock, easy to replace with reman. Otherwise, replacement would have to be recurved or reworked to match.
Interested in what they did to the engine to get more hp. The detailed stuff not documented in articles.

Small details matter concerning certain parts replacement:
Again, ordered a reman Holley 5200 from Holley via Pep Boys. Confirmed interchange per carb tag. Special order.
Carb arrived. Looked new. Was geeked. Number on reman box was right. Reman carb had no tag. Had inspection paint dots.
Carb was not built right. Wrong jets. Everything else was fine. Simple fix once diagnosed, which was not immediate.
An error by Holley or their rebuilder. A 'nah, cant be the carb- its reman new from Holley' to 'wtf is this'?
Carbs are hard to order and be exact right out of box. One would think that changed. Maybe it has since 1999.
Dist. are much simpler, less variable as to parts makeup/mix. More apps use the same exact versions.
The reman dist. bought off the shelf has performed same as original and actually better durability wise.

Throwing parts into this is not the real way to go about anything but sometimes its ok. Everything will be new.
Taking it in is one solution. but a new module and reman dizzy can be bought for one hour dealer labor alone.
Heck throw in a coil too. So that's three items.
Replace one at a time and test if wanting to find out what was bad.
The other way is to do all 3 and move on one way or another.

[m81mclaren]

Wow thanks guys and Kendal for the added pics that confirm we have the same original parts, and GR for the details! I agree that it makes sense to throw new parts at it since they are cheap but hate to do it with these old new parts that have been sitting on the shelf for decades now. But at this point I can't do much else. Who knows if the distributor was re-curved to cope with the added boost and adjuster knob but I'll take a car that runs for now vs. tuned to perfection. A few more pics from mine to confirm:

ICM has a larger yellow plug at the top right which has 2 connectors on it as well as smaller yellow connector on the bottom right (which is unplugged at the picture but goes to the vacuum tree thingy just above the ICM). So I think it's the same as yours instead of the Motorcraft DY893/LX215 as called for by RockAuto. Good thing you had me double-check so the Yellow 3 connector would be a 1979 Turbo match rather than 1980 so I need a WVE/AIRTEX/WELLS 6H1094 or STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS LX209 although the wire sequence top to bottom is different it looks like the connector wire colors match up (and are same as identified by GR)!
BTW do you know which one of these 3 plugs is removed when setting up the timing as per my previous post from the Haynes instruction?


My distributor has single diaphragm vacuum (hole on the top where the second port would be looks closed or missing as also seen in Kendal's pic) and a what appears to be a replaced pickup as one of the screws was already stripped a bit. I tried to remove it but the reluctor wheel has a roll pin that's in there tight so a reman single diaphram A1 Cardone (yikes) 302470 it will most likely be and I'll cap the smaller vacuum port.


Coil= no brainer.

I'm also going to go ahead and throw in the reman fuel pump I already have on hand as a precaution. Will be a week or so to figure out and get the parts but will update when I get them swapped. I will do a better job marking the distributor and rotor when I pill the distributor and try and get new one in correctly (and not 180 out). I am still learning and am far away from understanding many things ...but I'm still enjoying the process even if frustrating at times. Thanks again for all your help!

[gr79]

Am learning here too.
The pic of the ICM module shows correct wire codes, three plugs, and two yellow wire retainers.
LX?? Not following that. Is that on another car?
That dist pic is just like a dual diap without the pipe sticking out the hole.
Could try the other type and maybe re-reluct it as a spare or put it back in after.
Would not turn current dist in for a core. Eat the core charge. Keep old for reference.
Have to remove dist to work on it. Funky screw is a red flag.
Meantime, another can run car.

I know the vac adv on mine was always pointed toward the shock tower or brake booster. Max room for adj.
More ccw than yours is.

Putting new parts in cant hurt. Money spent is part of owning cars. Restoring.
Like adding another car payment after it was paid off.
The hurt is finding good NOS parts you bought years ago and could not find when needed.

[gr79]

Sorry to hog up your thread but these may be of value. In the name of getting car on road and back normally.
Help sort things out somehow. Back to mechanic school mode. The rest of the story.
From 1979 Ford shop manual 1980 has to be similar.
Distributor info.
Note importance on indexing armature with pick up coil and housing.
Note pic of firing order on cap in relation to screws.
What to do if oil pump shaft comes out with dist.
Attachment 124169Attachment 124170

[gr79]

Have fun with the fuel pump shield...

Per Ford shop manual- plug to remove to set timing, dual mode module is:
The 3 wire brown/black/yellow which routes to the pressure switch array.
For timing control under boost (retard) in turbo apps.

2 wire red/white are power at start and run.
4 wire orange/black/purple go to distributor, green to tach side of coil.

Rotate dist ccw to advance timing.

[m81mclaren]

YES!!!! Thanks GR this is hugely helpful and goes way beyond my Haynes manual. The LX??? I fixed above is the part# for the Standard Motor Products LX209 which has the 2 yellow retainers on the side with 3 connectors instead of blue or single side retainer with 2 connectors as the computer lookup calls for my year on all the parts sites. With kendal's confirmation this indicating the M81's which were build very closely together contain some 1979 spec components.

Not sure if I should get the dual 30-2470 or single 30-2490 distributor and if the module/reluctor comes with (I assume so but the description indicates otherwise). My diaphram is riveted to the arm that goes to the module so it does not look like a simple swap). I'm leaning to dual and just capping the one that's missing on mine if that's enough.

Also FWIW from the ford-trucks.com forums....lol looks like I am on stage 2 and compounding a dizzy module issue....
thanks to NumberDummy , 02-07-2013 05:01 AM
“
The 3 step scenario of a failing DuraSpark ignition module.

1) Module overheats, engine dies. Module cools down, engine restarts almost at once.

2) Module overheats, engine dies. Module cools down, engine restarts in an hour or so.

3) Sooner or later, usually sooner, the module overheats, BURNS OUT. Now the engine will not restart.

Engine heat, especially radiating from the V8's red hot left exhaust manifold, is the mortal enemy of these modules.

Module installed on left fender inner apron. When replacing, use some washers to space it further away from the apron. The more airflow, the better.

The modules used in the 1970's were so unreliable, that Ford techs referred to them as NeverSpark!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1974/79 F100/350, Bronco & Econoline: There were five different DuraSpark ignition modules.

One was 1974 only. One was 1975 only. One was only installed in some 1976/79 sold new in CA vehicles. One was the "high altitude" module installed in 1978/79 (and 1980).

Modules are identified by a colored plastic square above where the wires feed out.

1974 only: D4AZ-12A199-C .. Ignition ModuleBlack Plastic Square (Motorcraft DY-157-B).

All 1974 FoMoCo vehicles.
-------------------------
1975 only: D5AZ-12A199-C .. Ignition ModuleGreen Plastic Square (Motorcraft DY-166-B).

All 1975 FoMoCo vehicles.
-------------------------
1976/79: 1U2Z-12A199-AA (replaced D6AZ-12A199-A, D8VZ-12A199-A, D9VZ-12A199-A) .. Ignition Module Blue Plastic Square (Motorcraft DY-893).

This module was used well into the 1990's on myriad FoMoCo vehicles.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
1976/79 CA only: D7AZ-12A199-A (replaced D6AZ-12A199-B) .. Ignition Module Red Plastic Square (Motorcraft DY-204).

This module was a total POS from day one!
-------------------------------------------
1978/79 High Altitude only: D9AZ-12A199-C(replaced D8AZ-12A199-A) .. Ignition Module-Yellow Plastic Square (Motorcraft DY-237-A).

D8AZ-12A199-A ~ Brown Plastic Square.
------------------------------------------
Don't forget this little charmer, the same symptoms apply to it as they do to a failing ignition module.

D4PZ-12A112-A .. Stator aka Magnetic Pickup Coil (Motorcraft DU-1A).

All 1974/79 V8 Passenger Cars/Trucks/Bronco's/Econolines except 1979 LTD/Grand Marquis 351W with EEC”

Reply

[gr79]

Ah LX of course 209. Did not make the connection. Was thinking car model LX, GT.

Haynes is ok for keeping in car. The Ford manuals cost more but are like blueprints with text.
Used to use them too until found out how to get a full set of Ford authorized shop manuals.
Store manuals use bits and pieces out of the Ford manuals and cover multi years which is ok.
Ford manuals are specific one year only. No other years are covered in the set.
Have bought a set for every car i owned since the 70's. VWs too. All have paid for themselves.

Ford manuals are arranged by group, sections, then page number.
Post #206 shop manual page order is backwards:
23-01-9 (4cyl 6cyl dist, diaphragm, and pick up coil remove/install)
23-01-9 (closeup of FIG. 10)
23-01-8 (distributive parts exploded view)
23-01-7 (v8 dist and pick up coil remove/install)
23-01-6 (engine firing orders)


Reman dists come complete, except of course cap and rotor.
Difference of advance calibration between 79-80 is unknown. Suspect they are the same or close.
But then again emissions parts were not.

Was thinking about swapping vac adv diaph too. Buy the cheaper dist, swap the dual into it.
Its easy if you know the trick. Remove the tiny round spring clip on the rivet.
Removal/install info is on page 23-01-9 (text, left of FIG 10). Parts are shown in FIG 9 (page 23-01-
Tiny print but the word diaphragm is there.
Page numbers are at the top. Pages can be zoomed for easier reading.

Trick as to how to remove the armature (reluctor wheel) is mentioned too under mag.pickup coil (pg 22-01-9).
Page 22-01-8 shows all the parts. May be the better option, reusing existing 80 dist. Cheapest option.
Thread post #267 shows Motorcraft p/n DU-5-A/D5TZ-12A112B. Standard LX212 has galv plate too.
Replacing the magnetic pickup coil looks way easier to do than a rebuilding a turbocharger!

[erratic50]

Base timing will be critical to set low if you do not know advance vs boost. As boost increases timing advance has to be reduced to avoid detonation on any boosted motor. Just thought I’d mention it before something happens and you are back to head gasket....

Love this car, so cool. Good luck getting it fixed!!