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  1. #326

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    Thanks X yes so door tag says code Tr - 6 = manual Borg Warner (RAD) 4-speed transmission.


    Current FEP:
    1980 M81 McLaren Carb Turbo 2.3T #003P ... IT'S ALIVE after a 22 year slumber thread!

    Past FEP:
    1986 Capri GS 5.0- very missed but in goods hands
    1985 LTD SSP- quick little fox 5.0

  2. #327

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    Still stuck here. Going to re-check I'm @ TDC and marks line up and that rotor reluctor is in the perfect position. Suggestions?

    [QUOTE=m81mclaren;1894813]No fuel leaks and she started for about 20 seconds then died. I could not get it to restart and eventually killed the battery. Lots of fuel getting to the clear filter.

    I did find this wire that connects below (but not directlt to the ICM) with a break chafing about so I cut, soldered and shrink-wrapped. Charging the battery and will try and fire again in about an hour and report back. My OG distributor spins very poorly in my hands so was likely not helping at all with clean running.



    EDIT! I just pulled the #1 plug wire and grounded the plug and am getting spark while cranking. Added fuel to float bowl and carb inlets. It cranks great but will not fire or even give me a cough/sputter. So I have air, spark and fuel but no fire. I swapped to the extra spare ICM I bought and same result. My new coil felt pretty warm to the touch with all the cranking as well but I'm told this is normal. Any thoughts on where to go from here? I am suspecting the wiring from the car to the distributor but that's a total guess at this point.

    Still stuck here. Going to re-check I'm @ TDC and marks line up and that rotor reluctor is in the perfect position. Suggestions?
    Last edited by m81mclaren; 11-06-2018 at 02:04 PM.
    Current FEP:
    1980 M81 McLaren Carb Turbo 2.3T #003P ... IT'S ALIVE after a 22 year slumber thread!

    Past FEP:
    1986 Capri GS 5.0- very missed but in goods hands
    1985 LTD SSP- quick little fox 5.0

  3. #328

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    I have only see 3 "R" codes on the early manual transmission tags...

    RAD = Borg Warner 4-speed -- code 6
    RAP = Tremec 5-speed overdrive (140VS) -- code 5 on 1980-1983 door tags
    RUG = Tremec 4-speed overdrive (SROD) -- code 5 on 1979 door tags, code 4 on 1980-1983 door tags

    I don't remember if I have a Ford of Germany transmission tag, which is code 7 on the door tag.
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  4. #329
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    With air, fuel, spark, engine should run.

    Just a thought. Firing 180 out? Engine won't light on exhaust stroke.
    Is #1 on the compression stroke?
    Could be at tdc but on exhaust stroke.
    TDC happens 2x to every cyl for every 1 engine rotation.
    Can't check valve positions with vc on.
    Could swap wires 1-4 and 2-3 see if something happens.
    1 and 4 both are at tdc same time, but one will be on exhaust, one compression. Same with 2 and 3.
    Swapping wires is easier to do for a check than reinstalling dist.
    Of course prob have to move dist around a bit once engine catches.

    Could double check cam and rotor all line up at tdc.
    Crank tdc mark aligned with crank pointer, cam timing pointer indexes with sprocket timing mark, dist rotor is at #1 firing position.
    Once running, ign timing, moving dist, is: advance cw retard ccw. I think.

  5. #330

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    Quote Originally Posted by gr79 View Post
    With air, fuel, spark, engine should run.

    Just a thought. Firing 180 out? Engine won't light on exhaust stroke.
    Is #1 on the compression stroke?
    Could be at tdc but on exhaust stroke.
    TDC happens 2x to every cyl for every 1 engine rotation.
    Can't check valve positions with vc on.
    Could swap wires 1-4 and 2-3 see if something happens.
    1 and 4 both are at tdc same time, but one will be on exhaust, one compression. Same with 2 and 3.
    Swapping wires is easier to do for a check than reinstalling dist.
    Of course prob have to move dist around a bit once engine catches.

    Could double check cam and rotor all line up at tdc.
    Crank tdc mark aligned with crank pointer, cam timing pointer indexes with sprocket timing mark, dist rotor is at #1 firing position.
    Once running, ign timing, moving dist, is: advance cw retard ccw. I think.
    Short story I got it running again! Thanks, yes the process is I rechecked everything compression TDC on #1. Pulled the cam belt cover and double-checked the crank pulley notch was lined up with the mark. Pulled the distributor cap and checked that the rotor was pointing to #1. All checked good but the reluctor wheel was a hair off from with the pickup so I rotated the dizzy CC until perfect (a but farther than it was before). Still no fire but if I floored it it would just barely start to catch and keeping it floored while cranking for about 30 seconds finally got it started. Revs climbed very slowly and only if I kept it floored but eventually she ran on her own and idled/revved very well. Per the timing instructions after full warm up I pulled and plugged the main distributor advance line and port, unplugged the ICM line to the vacuum advance tree thingamabob and set the timing to about 12 BTDC. Sounds great but now idles @ 1,900 so I locked down the distributor and need to need to read up on adjusting the idle. Upon shutoff it dieseled quite a bit which is something it never did before so hopefully idle adjustments are all that are needed. 1980 carb idle adjustments look complicated so need to read up on that and attempt tomorrow after work. Rad sprung a leak at the lower hose. I can't tell you how happy I am that it runs again and seems much smoother than before. Need to see if I can get the rad leak sorted now so I can adjust the idle and take it out for a long drive and see if it stays running properly! If so then SMOG and hopefully I can get this to the last GGuys show this weekend with my son. Thanks for all the support!
    Last edited by m81mclaren; 11-06-2018 at 11:09 PM.
    Current FEP:
    1980 M81 McLaren Carb Turbo 2.3T #003P ... IT'S ALIVE after a 22 year slumber thread!

    Past FEP:
    1986 Capri GS 5.0- very missed but in goods hands
    1985 LTD SSP- quick little fox 5.0

  6. #331

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    Reading through my Holley 5200 book and the Haynes Manual does not give me anything to go on to actually adjust the idle on my specific carb. There is a primary idle mixture screw but no idle adjustment screw over on the throttle linkage arms on the rear of the carb as suggested in both manuals. There is also some procedures for adjusting fast idle on the electric choke. The only thing (almost) touching the throttle lever linkage is what I believe to be a idle stop solenoid which has both vacuum and electrical connections. Is my only option for adjusting idle to play with the actual throttle cable and adjust the idle mixture? Alternatively I can adjust the timing via the distributor back as that changes drops the idle back down. How are you doing it?
    Last edited by m81mclaren; 11-07-2018 at 01:46 PM.
    Current FEP:
    1980 M81 McLaren Carb Turbo 2.3T #003P ... IT'S ALIVE after a 22 year slumber thread!

    Past FEP:
    1986 Capri GS 5.0- very missed but in goods hands
    1985 LTD SSP- quick little fox 5.0

  7. #332
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    There is no solenoid kick on my carb.
    They either kick up idle for a/c or close throttle plates all the way upon shutdown.
    If throttle plates are open a little, due to high idle setting, can cause run-on.

    Carb here has idle mix, throttle curb idle. Entire choke assy is removed entirely.
    Pic below is where i set the curb idle. Firewall side of carb.
    Throttle cable has no adjustment.
    Backing down timing a little should drop curb idle too.
    Check choke fast idle cam too to see if on low step once warm.
    Have been adjusting carb and timing with everything attached as would be when driven.
    Vac gauge used to adjust idle mix for highest steady vac reading at idle.
    Once on the road, reset timing for best drivability without spark knock.
    Do get occasional run-on after shutdown due to fuel brand or something. Immediately stall it in gear with clutch and brake.
    Do not like run on when engine runs backwards. Not good for timing belt.

    Name:  carb detail 5200 (7b).jpg
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  8. #333

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    Thanks GR unfortunately mine does not have that idle adjustment screw but there must be a way right? It seems the throttle cable has some adjustment to it but agree that's probably not the way to do it. I did back off the timing a bit and dropped the idle down. Now need to adjust the richness as from what I am reading the dieseling is caused by overly rich settings and or incorrect timing. I reset timing @ 8 degrees BTC with distributor vacuum in place and it idles @ 1,200, still high. The good news is it fires instantly with the twist of the key with no throttle needed!








    Two lines I still need to figure out...

    This one is from the intake manifold top by head cyl#2 with a brass fitting and hard line to rubber line (with the golf tee inside)?

    Last edited by m81mclaren; 11-08-2018 at 11:10 AM.
    Current FEP:
    1980 M81 McLaren Carb Turbo 2.3T #003P ... IT'S ALIVE after a 22 year slumber thread!

    Past FEP:
    1986 Capri GS 5.0- very missed but in goods hands
    1985 LTD SSP- quick little fox 5.0

  9. #334
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Instant start means major everything is pretty darn close. Huge event. A keeper. Home run.
    I'd lock the timing down for now. Move at last resort. Fuel, air, ign, are in prime sync for the starting step.
    Id be curious how engine revs and even drives at this point. High idle, idle mix, minor issues right now.
    Now to other areas for drivability tuning steps if needed. One change at a time to observe result.
    Think I have timing at 12. My particular engine runs best overall there. No EGR, choke, carb heat.
    Has late SVO/T-Bird cam A231 straight up (i think, may be 1 tooth adv), so power curve is a little different.
    Rock steady idle rpm, 18"cold to 20" vac warm. Smooth pull up rpm, consistent mpg, power.
    Idles at 1000-1200. Engine never really liked factory spec 900. But the high idle sometimes causes run on.
    That's ok. Can deal with that. Nice torque. Will pull from 1200 floored in higher gears no buck or ping.

    Red arrow connection:
    Ok to mess with it. Will not change anything gained very much if at all.
    From 79 vac diagram, 50 state, all engines. 1985 even shows same connections.
    Air cleaner Bi-metal Sensor (A/CL BI-MET), 2 hoses. Pic with red arrow.
    One hose to vacuum source.
    One hose to a Cold Weather Module (A/CL CWM), one of the round colored plastic things, side of air cleaner housing.

    The round colored plastic Cold Weather Module controls the heat door in the air intake duct.
    Located in one of the round holes in the side of air cleaner housing. Fastened with U clip.
    Has one hose to Bi-metal Sensor, one hose to Air Intake Heat Door vacuum motor.
    The duct flap is moved by vacuum. Closed for manifold heat, open for cold air.

    Golf tee hose guesses:
    vac source?
    charcoal canister?
    what is the connection at other end?
    see below

    Now, this one can change what engine does when driving, especially going for the power runs.
    They add a fuel enrichment deal when boost comes on line. Boost needs extra fuel to make power.
    EFI turbo engines do this thru the computer. Carb turbo engines do this with carb tricks. Digital vs analog.
    Not enough additional fuel for boost mode is not good. Flat bog, knock, or worse.

    Noticed the right angle metal barb fitting on the air horn, valve cover side, has no connection.
    Is a part of the power valve control (f-port) when under boost on mine. Several short hoses, tee, check valve.
    Calif calib is different. Connection for 79 Calif emissions has extra parts than 49 state calib.
    The golf tee hose may be part of this.
    Prob posted this pic before but will again why not. 80 may be same or not.
    Check out CARB icon, F (port next to bowl vent on carb air horn) and V (air horn, right angle barb, not connected in pic)

    Name:  79 turbo vac diagram CALIF.jpg
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  10. #335

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    Thanks GR I'll see if I can follow this diagram. The golf T pic goes back to a metal pipe that goes to a brass elbow into the intake manifold (see pic just above the golf T pic). The car idles very well and revs nicely but if I juice the throttle up to 4k RPM's and let off instantly it makes a put put put sound. Can't take it out now until I get the leaky radiator fixed which I can't get done until the weekend now. I see a rod that attaches to once of the throttle linkage arms where there should be an idle adjuster. I'll try and trace that back and see if there is adjustment elsewhere.

    Once I have the rad fixed (will try and have it repaired since it's very nice and original Ford instead of some cheesy stock replacement with plastic end caps) I'll get the bung moved to the correct location and make some some runs and adjust timing to where it runs good all over and check AFR's/confirm the vacuum advance is working correctly @ keeping it safe. I have a long way to go to learn how to tune the mixtures on this carb but the main adjustments seem to be choke and primary mixture on DS of carb. In the Holley book it says there is no secondary adjustment although you can see on the PS there appears to be an adjuster. The guy who built my carb said to leave the adjustments as is and that if they go out to just turn them back in all the way then back out 2 1/2 turns. Will see how adjustments here affect A/F readings.
    Current FEP:
    1980 M81 McLaren Carb Turbo 2.3T #003P ... IT'S ALIVE after a 22 year slumber thread!

    Past FEP:
    1986 Capri GS 5.0- very missed but in goods hands
    1985 LTD SSP- quick little fox 5.0

  11. #336
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Good news reports continue, except rad.
    Why cant it be a loose lower hose connection or a hose cut? Would be too easy.
    In a way, rad is good news too. Appeared when car was not on the road.
    Found a new metal one for mine. Plastic does not last long. Hove one on the a Ranger. Lifetime warr.
    Still have to replace it. Seeps. Plastic drain screw head broke off. OE never did that.

    That 90 barb elbow on the air horn is letting additional unfiltered air into the carb.
    Cap it for now. Job 1.
    It may be affecting fuel mix. Causing the putt putt?
    On mine, is directly connected to intake via rubber vac hose.

    The putt putt may go away on its own once everything is sorted out.

    The brass slotted screw, to the right of the elbow, is the idle jet for secondary side of carb.
    No adjustment, just access to the idle jet, which is on the back side of it. Primary has one too.
    Holley Service Guide No. 1 page 53 Fig. 22. Which shows 70's 5200's.

    Like working on a pc. The more you know the more dangerous one can be messing around with it.
    As the cab guy says, the only real adjustment is idle mix. Page 53, figure 23. An 'it' item. Only one.
    Others like the choke fast idle worked before and really never need to be touched unless mis-adjusted.
    Except that idle dashpot thing. Cant find anything yet either. They say its adjustable. Yah how?

    Vac leaks, dirt in carb, are reg maint items with these engines.
    Minor idle mix adj 2x-4x a year. They change the fuel blend here in Mich. Summer, winter blend.
    Learned about 5200 having to replace, rebuild and tweak. Pretty easy once familiar.
    Started when i put a 5200 on my 1970 VW bug in the 70's.

    Something may be miss connected, since there are 2 open connections, but not close to one another.
    Assuming the golf tee line is routed the same as before laying 'natural'.
    Took me years to get things figured out. The last little tweaks. Related to the idle too.
    Right or wrong, when everything worked normal, left it that way.
    Found they affecting engine op way more than a good carb did. Its just a bystander, in a way.

    Never had a metal pipe like that on mine. Straight hose from that brass fitting. One of my miss marks rebuilding the engine.
    If the golf tee line is connected to the ft of intake runner (cyl) #1, diagram shows a connection to the spark retard SPK RET on the fender.
    I think i have my dist connected to that fitting. A mod. With a check valve so boost wont go to dist adv.
    Not factory but works when someone (me) messes with factory vac hose routing and eliminates some (the round colored air cleaner vac parts).

  12. #337
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Next secret project here. Cram this thing onto our engine. Just for fun. Stock 5200 is fine, but i experiment.
    Holley 2305. 350 cfm. The 4 cyl version of Holley 2300 carb. Made in the 1980's.
    Linkage is same side and config as 5200. Internals for 4 cyl. Staged pri/sec operation like the 5200.
    Non turbo 2.3 manifold no prob plenty of room, the intended Holley app. Bolts straight to 2.3 n/a manifold.
    Turbo another story. Tight fit. No data on how it will work with turbo. Fuel line and linkage connection is a go.
    May have to clearance valve cover a bit somehow. Should barely fit under hood scoop with aftermarket 1/2" carb adapter..
    Especially for the day when critical 2.3 carb turbo parts are all gone or sooner

    Name:  carb holley on manifold trial.jpg
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  13. #338
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    The 90 air horn barbs.
    Both of mine are connected to vac hoses.
    Front one leads to power valve inside carb.
    Side one leads directly to secondary venturi.

    Name:  carb turbo air horn barb color.jpg
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  14. #339

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    Thanks GR mine as far as I can tell from all my pictures is how I got the car so I suspect wrong in a few spots for sure. I need to study the diagrams for 1979 and 1980 with AC for CA and Federal and see if I have it right. My car was built 08/80 and has many 1979 spec parts instead of 80 and while it was sold new in CA, it was built in MI and apparently to Federal Standards rather than CA standards which required a special review/exemption as evidenced by the BAR sticker (California Bureau of Automotive Repair- the only place yo can go that will pass a unique/engine swapped car) on the door jam.

    I pulled my radiator this morning and looks pretty tired and not sure a "refresh" by the radiator shop is going to cut it even though I wanted to keep it as OEM as I could so I ordered new aftermarket one which will arrive Tuesday. Once I have that squared away I'll drive around and confirm the cut-off situation is fixed for good and get the bung installed and start the tuning and vacuum line routing check.

    Love your carburetor experiments and hope you get some good gains from it. It looks huge compared to the 5200! Good luck.
    Current FEP:
    1980 M81 McLaren Carb Turbo 2.3T #003P ... IT'S ALIVE after a 22 year slumber thread!

    Past FEP:
    1986 Capri GS 5.0- very missed but in goods hands
    1985 LTD SSP- quick little fox 5.0

  15. #340
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Looks like the situations have progressed nicely.
    The new rad will work. All metal is correct but not if undependable.

    The carb experiment has been on my mind since the 80's when was aware a special carb existed.
    Its all about the 2305's progressive linkage vs a regular 2300 series or 4 bbl alternatives for a 5200 carb.
    Not in the budget back then, nor could i fool with only mode of transportation.
    Super lucked out getting a like new and rare 2305 recently for same price as rebuilt 5200.

    Sometimes thinking out of the box helps in better understanding the stock setup that works and why.

    Have gotten a non-turbo 5200 carb to work well, so turbo engines have a little flexibility in them.
    The engine will run fine with turbo installed but bypassed with straight n/a down pipe. And get 25-30 mpg.
    The VW bug 5200 carb mod worked very well once sorted out. Now to do similar again.
    Had much more power, stock drive ability, better mpg, than stock 1bbl. Learned a lot.

    Is fun to get a chance to do a 'what if'. Get it off the mind even if it doesn't work out.
    Looking for ha 35 mpg and same or little more power. Never know.
    Heck i would consider temp running non turbo again someday just to use carb.
    Like if turbocharger went out.
    Could change out the whole turbo setup to a 77 Pinto n/a 2.3 manifold i also found this year.
    Straight bolt in. The Pinto manifold has correct 2300 bolt pattern under the 5200 adapter.
    Using a spare 2.3 turbo intake to get everything mocked up. The turbocharger complicates things.
    Do not want to mod anything that cannot be reversed or make a mistake that ruins something.
    Made a wooden adapter carb spacer just to play with before buying a metal one.
    Throttle plates are bigger and won't clear the manifold plenum without at least a 1/2" adapter.
    Plus the spacer adapts the different carb bolt patterns.

    Now to get a spare valve cover to mock up for more carb side clearance.
    Should be enough internal clearance from the cam towers for 1" deep pocket.
    Would like to just dent it in with a press or such, rather than cut and weld.

    Actually used play-doh and foam brick, on top of current air cleaner, to check real time hood clearance. Was about 2".

  16. #341

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    Good luck with that fitment it should be tight! My Pinto buddy just found an NOS Dual Weber setup with Ford part# D12X-9425-BB on the manifold for his NA 4cyl. It took some tuning but said it made a big improvement.
    Current FEP:
    1980 M81 McLaren Carb Turbo 2.3T #003P ... IT'S ALIVE after a 22 year slumber thread!

    Past FEP:
    1986 Capri GS 5.0- very missed but in goods hands
    1985 LTD SSP- quick little fox 5.0

  17. #342
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Dual Webers with stacks look pretty wild, like an Indy motor or something.
    So fortunate for past and continued interest for 2.3 engines and small fours in general.
    Many options for n/a 2.3. Motorcycle carbed, racing, boat engines, industrial propane. EFI opened up more.

    Always wondered how a Holley add on Sniper EFI conversion kit would work.
    Finally came out with a small 2bbl 2300 style. They claim it will work with turbos and engines down to 100 hp.
    Cost and much added work to adapt is a little out of range for me but glad it's an option. Never know.
    Car runs fine and really has other priorities, like rust repair. Plus household projects too.

    The bigger 350 cfm carb will be fun to play with if anything. Holley also made a 500 cfm version.
    The only clearance issues will be the air cleaner, valve cover, and maybe one of the turbo flange mounts.
    A new fuel line extension is done and ready. 2305 inlet is on the valve cover side.
    Did bolt it down with the wood adapter and got a real preview of what has to be done.

    Carb only needs to be raised an inch or two to clear everything. Hood clearance is the limitation.
    Boss 429 scoop height would work, or none at all. Hood has the factory cutout style.
    Possible may fab something from plastic or metal to raise the stock scoop up 1" and still look stock.
    May be the easiest and an inexpensive solution. Could use wood again for mock up of a spacer.
    Change out the scoop mounting studs to longer ones.
    Then could use a simple 1" tall carb spacer/adapter readily available. Gonna try a 1/2" spacer first.
    Raise the throttle linkage up to match if needed.
    A winter project. That's almost to April around here.

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