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  1. #376

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    Quote Originally Posted by gr79 View Post
    just some thinkin
    1 qt fuel in lines = 1/4 gal
    20 mpg/4= 5 miles
    32 oz/4= 8 oz, 5 miles
    + some in fuel bowl. another 4 oz or so
    another 2 miles
    5- 7 miles, then fuel runs out; engine quits?

    Not far off GR. I added 6 gallons after the muffler shop and drove about 25-30 miles total (back home then to the tire shop and a couple trips around the block) before my next stall out. I know I can't trust that gauge until I have a few fill-ups. So I assumed I had at least 3 gallons in the tank based on my previous work siphoning 3 gallons out to check for sediment and adding that back in, plus my fuel gauge showed 1/8 tank before the work yesterday which jives with a tank capacity of 12 gallons. I didn't lose all that fuel when i removed the lines or fill pipe as I had the passenger side jacked up to shift the fuel to the left side. Anyways, I need to do one thing at a time now so will start by adding at least 5 more gallons and re-test. If I fail again then at least I know the tank, lines, and filters are all working and I need to shift focus elsewhere.

    I feel really bad for my son who is probably getting tired of all the work we have put in and not being able to actually enjoy the car! At least he is still always ready to work on it which will make the experience all the more satisfying once it is finally right. We are learning a ton as we go and he even helped get a friends Honda ATC back on the road with some of the knowledge gained along the way. Again I can't express how helpful you all have been here to help be my armchair mechanics! FWIW I am helping others on my VW forum with their CIS fuel injected cars which I have owned on and off since the 80's and to me are far easier to work on and diagnose! Someday hope to help others here as you all have done for me.
    Last edited by m81mclaren; 12-31-2018 at 07:48 PM.
    Current FEP:
    1980 M81 McLaren Carb Turbo 2.3T #003P ... IT'S ALIVE after a 22 year slumber thread!

    Past FEP:
    1986 Capri GS 5.0- very missed but in goods hands
    1985 LTD SSP- quick little fox 5.0

  2. #377

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    Ok so added two gallons and then two trips around the neighborhood with no stalling but the filter still looks lower than before. Will add 4 more on Friday and take it for a long drive and see how she does.
    Current FEP:
    1980 M81 McLaren Carb Turbo 2.3T #003P ... IT'S ALIVE after a 22 year slumber thread!

    Past FEP:
    1986 Capri GS 5.0- very missed but in goods hands
    1985 LTD SSP- quick little fox 5.0

  3. #378
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Default The kids are alright

    Found early on i was very interested in car, mechanical things, tech. For sure at 10 years old.
    By choice as a hobby, not as a vocation. Later on developed into DIY to save or stretch money.
    Formal training is faster if one can absorb the pace or even understand it. DIY is slower, more error.
    Observing, playing, reading 'Say Smokey' (Yunick) articles in Popular Science mag in the '60's.
    The space programs. Fascinating. Will never know it all. No one does. Many don't care at all.
    Hands on is very valuable in understanding what the books say and then some.
    Even if at a young age, when details can be fuzzy, the attitude is formed. Self taught. Home schooled.
    Plus the M81 focus is not entirely a generic one, but specific ongoing as if in chapters.
    Understanding basics from an early timeline project can be linked eventually to new tech.
    Forming an interest in real things. By choice or necessity. Forming a personality.
    Working on cars, eventually learned diy home and pc repair skills beyond the basics.
    But only on my stuff. Expanding detailed knowledge beyond to cover other variations is time consuming.
    And still learning new as needed, curious about, and relearning what one forgets or got wrong the first time.
    The stuff in school that was not absorbed correctly. Too intense at the time, etc.
    All this told me the auto industry would be cool to be in as a career and was/is. Came easy.

    Sometimes no choice diagnosing things by trial and error. Non-destructive testing.
    Nothing that damages anything or is not reversible.
    Taking notes on conditions when problem arises. Clues to help find a common denominator to solve problems.
    Like the tough multiple issues that move back/forth, on/off, being connected to the whole only part time.

    Have connected an inexpensive vac/pressure gauge with an adapter tee, into the fuel line at the filter.
    To find out what the fuel pressure is when engine is running.
    Using a tee the size of fuel line on 2 barbs, and 3rd barb the size of gauge hose.
    An invaluable tool kept in car tool box at all times. Mine is older than the car, tuned many a carb with it.
    A tuning tool great for idle mix adjustments on carb, help in finding vac leaks.
    https://www.harborfreight.com/fuel-p...ter-62637.html
    Last edited by gr79; 01-02-2019 at 04:42 PM.

  4. #379
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Pics of the Cobra's fuel levels in fuel filter today.
    Return line, from fuel pump to tank, is connected and functional.
    When the fuel return line is pinched off, or disconnected and capped, fuel filter stays full as long as carb needle/seat is not leaking.

    Level after overnight engine shutdown.
    At this stage, takes 10 or so seconds of cranking with a few pumps of pedal to start engine.
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    Level, engine running.
    When fuel return is pinched off, fuel level stays at this level all the time. Car starts much quicker dead cold.
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    Level, few minutes after engine shutdown.
    Engine easily restarts in a second or two at this stage.
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    Could try pinching off this hose (temporally). Then start engine, run a bit, turn off. To see if fuel filter fills up and stays full.
    This is when i would take the gas cap off before and after just to see if anything changes.
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    Last edited by gr79; 01-02-2019 at 05:23 PM.

  5. #380
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Out of curiosity, just went out to check the fuel level in fuel filter.
    Been 5 hours since Cobra's engine was last started to take above pics.
    Filter was empty.
    Engine started quickly. Ran it for 15 sec.
    Turned engine off.
    Checked filter- was 3/4 full.

  6. #381

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    awesome thanks GR this is very helpful as usual! Will test as suggested Friday when I get off work!
    Current FEP:
    1980 M81 McLaren Carb Turbo 2.3T #003P ... IT'S ALIVE after a 22 year slumber thread!

    Past FEP:
    1986 Capri GS 5.0- very missed but in goods hands
    1985 LTD SSP- quick little fox 5.0

  7. #382
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Good.
    Was thinking if or when car stalls again, remove and replace gas cap just to be sure its not tank pressure issue.

    Long time ago, Dad had new 61 chevy. Went on a trip.
    Got bad gas or something. He had to tap carb with rubber hammer every time car stalled out.
    For 200 miles home. Dirt in carb i think it was. Even with filters. First time i seen a carb, much less know they got rebuilt. Old Harley, the mechanic, let me watch. Being a little kid, had to stand on something to see up there.

    Sometimes have to keep repeating checks until catching something in the act.
    Last edited by gr79; 01-02-2019 at 08:44 PM.

  8. #383

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    Thanks I tried the carb tapping-tap trick too to see if it was a stuck float or to loosen any debris.
    Current FEP:
    1980 M81 McLaren Carb Turbo 2.3T #003P ... IT'S ALIVE after a 22 year slumber thread!

    Past FEP:
    1986 Capri GS 5.0- very missed but in goods hands
    1985 LTD SSP- quick little fox 5.0

  9. #384

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    I had to work on a 71 Tbird with a 429 recently that also had a clear Fuel filter that would slowly get lower and lower. The car would also stall eventually.
    I found " the hard way" that even though there's no liquid visible, there was still plenty of psi in the lines. I discovered this by removing the fuel filter, hearing a pop from the pressure, and thankfully only a bit of gas sprayed around.
    The theory I came up with is modern fuel vaporizes way too easily and that the only way to combat this was with a helper pump and a return line. That way the fuel has very little time to absorb heat and vaporize in the line.

  10. #385
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Yah mech pumps cannot pump vapor. Gosh is it vapor locking? What the heck kind of fuel you guys have out west?
    Mine is running fine and always did. Fuel level in tank has no affect like it should be.
    I do drive it weekly. Tank of fuel can last one day or one month, depends on if i drive it.

    I thought return lines help purge vapor, pushing it back into the tank.
    Like in EFI, elec pump runs 5 sec to insure prime/pressurize of fuel lines before start.
    Thing is why does mine pump fine and has no electric pump? And is mechanical, same setup on the M81.
    I have a tank vent. M81 apparently does not with the tank mods for the SW fuel gauge.
    But the car should drive normal or they would not have sold it new that way.
    And is why i wonder what is going on in the tank when car stalls? Vacuum build up somehow from no vent?
    Was anything changed when tank was sent out to be cleaned? Tank pickup/return assy lines clear?
    Wonder if the return line is clear? Check valve is opening? Debris in valve? Why did it run fine in 2010?
    Reverse blow out both tubes in assy? Remove return line at tank to see if anything is returning?
    In Mich, the fuel blend is changed several times a year per weather. No problems.
    Actually get better fuel mileage when winter blend is still in tank and weather warms up.

    Typed 'vapor lock' search.
    https://www.google.com/search?q=vapo...hrome&ie=UTF-8
    Several posts read on another forum:
    https://www.stevesnovasite.com/forum...d.php?t=138909
    https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...-pump.1028531/

    "Vapor lock is caused by the temperature and pressure of the fuel is less than the Vapor Pressure of the fuel. Suction lowers the pressure and temperature gets it closer to evaporation point.
    If you have a 5/16" fuel line and it's seen better days (check for pin hole leaks), try a less restrictive fuel line (all the way to the tank) and insulate anything near headers or exhaust.
    you may also have a clogged tank vent port. when I got mine, the car would run for about a hour then die. Found the vent port clogged on the tank.
    Sometimes after running for a while a loose piece of debris in your fuel system will get sucked to a point of restriction, then when it stalls the lack of pressure allows it to float free, then you restart it and the process starts all over. Teflon tape can cause this if it gets loose in the system. I would doubt it's vapor lock this time of year unless you're running your lines near your exhaust or getting the engine extreemly hot. Check the fuel filter, Needle and seat, and blow out the fuel lines."

  11. #386

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    When I removed the return line to blow it out a good amount of fuel came out. I did not check the fuel in tank pickup/return metal unit for flow so it's possible that there is a restriction there. If more fuel in the tank does not solve I'll think about retrofitting a vapor port and see if that makes a difference. 2010 did not see much of a drive that would make the stalling appear so I can't use that as a basis for anything now. It's possible that I had a separate electronic issue solved by the replacement ignition parts and the recent stalling is just a case of missing baffles/being too low on fuel causing new fueling issues. We will see!
    Current FEP:
    1980 M81 McLaren Carb Turbo 2.3T #003P ... IT'S ALIVE after a 22 year slumber thread!

    Past FEP:
    1986 Capri GS 5.0- very missed but in goods hands
    1985 LTD SSP- quick little fox 5.0

  12. #387
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Prob have posted this pic in the past but one more time:
    The vapor vent valve, which connects to the loose rubber line you have back there.
    Again this is where your tank gauge sending unit now is. Connects up front directly to the charcoal cannister on mine.
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    Fuel tube pickup on the left, fuel return from fuel pump to the right:
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    Overall view. Float assy is deleted on M81.
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    Looks like both units are clocked the same. So the fuel pickups are immersed in the same area in center of tank.
    Was thinking if clocking was wrong, pickup tube could be too low or high in center of tank.
    Pretty sure there were tabs to index the pickup assy from turning when lock ring is installed.
    Name:  fuel tank install (9).jpg
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  13. #388
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Also, when i removed the return line from the fuel pump, car started fine.
    Took it out of the 'loop'. Fuel did not return to tank from pump.
    Would be same as if return line was pinched off or blocked.
    Temp running with loose or no gas cap should vent tank when driving.
    If she stalls again, then tank venting is not the problem.

    Used to be funny when people used to forget gas cap and stick a rag in there.
    For all to see on most cars. The untethered gas cap days.
    Or someone stole others to replace their missing ones.

    Wonder how the other M81's are running. Or even if they are driven at all.
    Or have been driven long enough for same issue to crop up.

  14. #389

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    Thanks GR, picked up another 2 gallons of gas on the way home so will try again tonight. Clocking is same as your car with both pointing up from the top position. I did not see baffles so maybe the fuel sloshing plus low fuel contributed on a spirited run? My car has about 23K on it so it clearly ran well at some point to accumulate some miles before the turbo carbon seal gave out and the valve burned. I'll drive it with the new gas cap on (no Moltov cocktail rags for me!) and see what happens. If I stall out I'll try no cap again. If I stall again, I'll clamp the return. Crosses fingers!
    Current FEP:
    1980 M81 McLaren Carb Turbo 2.3T #003P ... IT'S ALIVE after a 22 year slumber thread!

    Past FEP:
    1986 Capri GS 5.0- very missed but in goods hands
    1985 LTD SSP- quick little fox 5.0

  15. #390

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    Just noticed I do not have a do-hickey on the end of my return line in the tank feed/return unit. Is that a restrictor or of some kind? I wonder if that has an impact on the fuel pressure in the system? Fuel pressure testing as suggested are my next step if other tests today don't solve.
    Mine


    Yours


    OEM
    Last edited by m81mclaren; 01-07-2019 at 08:43 PM.
    Current FEP:
    1980 M81 McLaren Carb Turbo 2.3T #003P ... IT'S ALIVE after a 22 year slumber thread!

    Past FEP:
    1986 Capri GS 5.0- very missed but in goods hands
    1985 LTD SSP- quick little fox 5.0

  16. #391
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    I figure that dohicky on return line is a check valve.
    Keeps fuel in tank from backing up into return on a hard stop or something.
    Should be flow into tank if present and for sure if not.

    Agreed. 23k is not from riding on a tow truck bed. A lot of short trips (stall sessions)?
    Fuel slosh should not be a factor unless pickup is too high in tank to pick up the last gallons.
    On mine when on dead 'E' pretty much empty tank.
    Have ran out in the past (being cheap). Now when low fuel light goes on, time to fuel up.
    1,2, gallons in tank is not very deep spread out over the flat surface in tank and no sump for pickup tube.
    Could cut out on turns but never seems to. My truck briefly hesitates when fuel level is real low.

    Being able to check fuel pressure, especially when driving, will help eliminate that or not.
    When i did mine, ran the hose thru a hood gap and taped the handheld gauge to the windshield wiper.
    Strange it takes a while to start acting up.

    1979 Ford Service Manual Vol 2, page 24-30-4, 2.3 fuel pump specs;
    Static pressure psi: 5.0#-7.0# warm engine, normal curb idle, trans in neutral.
    Min Volume flow= 1 pt in 25 sec. same conditions as above plus pump to tank fuel return line pinched off.
    Eccentric Total Lift (inches)= .304-.326
    Bolt torque, fuel pump to cyl block (foot pounds)= 14-21

  17. #392

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    As usual thanks GR. Could not test last night as planned as I had to work late but will after work today. Thanks for the pressure specs now I need to figure out how to adjust idle down properly since adjusting timing to where she likes it. Still have not found a place to adjust it!
    Last edited by m81mclaren; 01-08-2019 at 01:03 PM.
    Current FEP:
    1980 M81 McLaren Carb Turbo 2.3T #003P ... IT'S ALIVE after a 22 year slumber thread!

    Past FEP:
    1986 Capri GS 5.0- very missed but in goods hands
    1985 LTD SSP- quick little fox 5.0

  18. #393

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    6 gallons total back in and drove fine for 2 miles. Will take an extended drive and see what happens...AAA card is ready JIK.
    Current FEP:
    1980 M81 McLaren Carb Turbo 2.3T #003P ... IT'S ALIVE after a 22 year slumber thread!

    Past FEP:
    1986 Capri GS 5.0- very missed but in goods hands
    1985 LTD SSP- quick little fox 5.0

  19. #394

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    I'm very happy to report that a 30 minute drive and about 15 miles and all is well. The fuel filter at the tank looks mighty low but flowing after the drive and most importantly no hiccups or stalls. This thing maybe just likes at least 1/4 tank to stay happy. It clearly needs some carb tuning, further timing tweaking and to get that idle to adjust down when warm. I was able to keep up with traffic and it runs very smooth at cruise. Next up will be vacuum line tracing thanks to GR and Xtasy's help with the VECI decoding in the other thread, AFR bung move, and some further tuning.

    The car gods were smiling on me today as I also got my Callaway Rabbit GTI through Smog testing/new plates and back on the road since 1999!
    Last edited by m81mclaren; 01-12-2019 at 10:56 PM.
    Current FEP:
    1980 M81 McLaren Carb Turbo 2.3T #003P ... IT'S ALIVE after a 22 year slumber thread!

    Past FEP:
    1986 Capri GS 5.0- very missed but in goods hands
    1985 LTD SSP- quick little fox 5.0

  20. #395
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Great news. Fluids in the car had time to warm up for once.
    Am curious what kind of AFR's turn up.

    Maybe Ford and VW talks gaining steam helped?

    Niece came into town for the holidays.
    Drives a New Beetle convertible. Brought along her pet rabbit.

    Worked few years, late 70's, at VW dealer parts counters. 'Factory trained'. Learned a lot, seen a lot.
    Was real convenient to own a VW at the time too. (Parts) discount in a 'candy' store. Paycheck dents.
    Rabbits were clean design, solid, simple, lightweight. I do remember a fuel pump relay shortage.....

    Possible fuel pickup in tank is not on bottom, but a few inches up off the tank floor.
    Thus needing slightly higher minimum fuel level to suck from.
    If low fuel is the stall problem, carry 2 gal with you next time just to see if more fuel helps after stall.
    Figured 2 gal per inch of fuel level, rough ballpark estimated guess.

    One thing am sure of. Never did cyphoring on this, nor am repeating anything wrote before.
    Shop math comes in handy, as do online calculators. Was curious about fuel levels and how much per inch.

    Rough dimensions of fuel tank, 6" high, 33" length, 16" wide. Stock 12.5 gal tank.
    My car has been pretty consistent: 1/4 tank= 2.5 gal about 50 miles @ 20 mpg.
    Figure stock gauge reads 10 gallons from F to E. Allow 1 gal to slush around at top or bottom of F/E marks.
    Filled to 5.5"= 12.57 gal.
    1 gal of fuel is 231 cubic inches.
    12.5 gal x 231= 2880 cubic inches.
    Floor of tank approx 525 sq inches. x 6 is 'bout 3000 cubic inch tank volume.
    Check: 1" of fuel is approx 2.25 gal. 2.25 gal x 5.5 = 12.37 gal. Close enough.
    Gee, 1 gal is 1/2" of fuel?
    Now for more coffee....

    Name:  tank vol m.JPG
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    https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calcu...ction/tank.php
    Last edited by gr79; 01-12-2019 at 11:27 PM.

  21. #396

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    Quote Originally Posted by gr79 View Post
    Great news. Fluids in the car had time to warm up for once.

    Maybe Ford and VW talks gaining steam helped?

    Niece came into town for the holidays.
    Drives a New Beetle convertible. Brought along her pet rabbit.

    Worked few years, late 70's, at VW dealer parts counters. 'Factory trained'. Learned a lot, seen a lot.
    Was real convenient to own a VW at the time too. (Parts) discount in a 'candy' store. Paycheck dents.
    Rabbits were clean design, solid, simple, lightweight. I do remember a fuel pump relay shortage.....

    Possible fuel pickup in tank is not on bottom, but a few inches up off the tank floor.
    Thus needing slightly higher minimum fuel level to suck from.
    If low fuel is the stall problem, carry 2 gal with you next time just to see if more fuel helps after stall.

    Am curious what kind of AFR's turn up.
    ha ha maybe! I heard they are going to be collaborating on some trucks and pickups and VW will be taking up some unused Ford production capacity.
    GR that must have been a busy parts counter job as those Westmoreland built VW’s we’re not the pinnacle of reliability. I keep a spare fuel pump relay in the glovebox today just in case. My first car at 16 was a 79 Rabbit I bought with a hole in the block for $500 that I swapped a later Scirocco motor into. I turned it into a fast, great handling car that surprised a lot of my V8 driving buddies. It’s what fueled my automotive passions and need to tinker. I made friends with the parts guy at my local VW dealer over the years using their microfiche machine to chase parts. A few years ago I found a super clean 53k mi Rabbit GTI with a Callaway Turbo kit on it to relive my teen years. In parallel to the M81 build we’ve been working on it and finally got the Bosch CIS K-Lambda system happy enough to run clean. AFRs on that are now great under full boost. Will need to learn how to tune a carb now and get this Mustang similarly happy!
    I’m still a bit perplexed by the low fuel flow indicated still by the clear filter but the car is much happier with a 1/4-1/3 tank.
    Current FEP:
    1980 M81 McLaren Carb Turbo 2.3T #003P ... IT'S ALIVE after a 22 year slumber thread!

    Past FEP:
    1986 Capri GS 5.0- very missed but in goods hands
    1985 LTD SSP- quick little fox 5.0

  22. #397
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Ah, 1/4-1/3 tank. 3-4 gal. 2"-3" fuel level. 5/16" pickup dia. Boy am i taking a chance running on E.
    Low fuel light on mine comes on just below 1/4, steady at 1/8 tank. About 2 gal left in tank.
    Gauge reading does change on left or right turns +/- 1/8 tank. Right turn= lower. Then evens out block or 2 later.

    I now keep a spare fuel pump relay in my Ranger. They wear out. Same relay for PCM, A/C cutout, fog lights.
    Those Stage II turbos put out some serious hp. Give us a good race.
    Drove 1st boss's dk blue Scirocco. Liked that car. He moved to Audi parts next door.
    Spent many hours on microfiche. Used spare time for my cars parts.
    Later, third (older) prick boss drove an Audi Fox. Dealer added Honda line and parts.
    The VW/Audi/Porsche parts system was well organized number wise. Honda no. I left. VW pride. Germany and Japan was too much.
    Retrofitted a Motorola electronic ignition kit we sold to my 75 FI Super Beetle. No more points to set, just valves.
    Also found a service part that stacked under the engine temp sensor to fool computer into thinking engine was colder= more fuel.
    The Bosch L-Jetronic. Late 70's. First time getting to know Bosch ele FI and electronic FI in general.

    Cannot recall anything major with the Westmoreland cars. The dik boss handled big stuff.
    Back then corporate was nearby in Warren MI. Brought their cars in to dealer #2 i was at later.
    They were dishonest with some parts (no brand for oe) so i left and returned to first class dealer 1.
    Last edited by gr79; 01-13-2019 at 12:27 AM.

  23. #398

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    BTW that calculator is awesome ��
    Current FEP:
    1980 M81 McLaren Carb Turbo 2.3T #003P ... IT'S ALIVE after a 22 year slumber thread!

    Past FEP:
    1986 Capri GS 5.0- very missed but in goods hands
    1985 LTD SSP- quick little fox 5.0

  24. #399
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...llon-gas-tanks

    I had to do the 15 US gallon load up every time I went for a 600 mile day trip. 12.4 US gallons was just too small.




    I did road inspections for the Contractors who supplied roading maintenance to the Government. I used a 33 year old car to do it because the suspension was the basically the same as the 1978-1993 live axle Australian Holden Commodore, which was used for road roughness measurement with e GM patent Mays Meter.

    So 47 liters is bang on 12.4 US gallons, and it would run to every last liter...or Ounce of gas. A splash of half a 5 US gallon can, and I was back in orbit.

  25. #400

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    You are a madman!!!
    Current FEP:
    1980 M81 McLaren Carb Turbo 2.3T #003P ... IT'S ALIVE after a 22 year slumber thread!

    Past FEP:
    1986 Capri GS 5.0- very missed but in goods hands
    1985 LTD SSP- quick little fox 5.0

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