Are Dominators a Joke?

[bluesfannoz]

In my quest for Dominator Mustang owners I post on a lot of other Mustang related forums and I get a lot of thats just another dealer sticker package car thats nothing special..

So I want to start a poll.

Do you think the Summit Ford Dominator Mustangs should be considered a special edition on par with a Predator Mustang or nothing special? Don't be afraid to explain your opinion.

[02Z06]

I think things are best viewed in light of the times. This was the very beginning of the 5.0 performance era. Not much was known, and the aftermarket was very limited. Ad to that the gas crunch, tougher emissions, and the general lack of performance they were doing the best they could. There was much more emphasis on looking fast, and is probably why the ASC McLarens, Predators, and Saleens were so popular even though most of them were all just cosmetic. The Dominators (especially the early Stage III cars) had a decent number of performance mods (headers, ram air, ignition) for the time, and for being a small-time dealership building a few cars. Sure they weren't 350 horsepower, but nothing was at the time. The Yenkos were little more than a COPO camaro that anyone who knew what they were doing could order with a sticker package. The Baldwin Motion cars were on a different level, but those cars were ungodly expensive and were true supercars in their time. I find all of the special edition mustangs attractive, Predators, Dominators, McLarens... they are all unique. It's unfortunate we don't have a more concrete way to verify Dominators... but I have a feeling we will at some point with all of the research you are doing.

[85 Speedfreak]

Hopefully I won't offend any COBRA II owners but that is a laughable sticker package car,Factory or dealer installed as long as it contains engine or suspension mods I believe it would qualify as a collectible but at what level I don't know.
Anybody chuckle at a TASCA modified Mustang?Nope.Different power level for sure but like it says above they worked with what they had at the time and I think that makes them legit.

[eeprete]

I think the Dominator package suffers from having too little be known about them outside the circle of people that really enjoy them. Being a dealer added package within a specific region and not being a "manufacturer" probably alters perception as well and doesn't place them on the same level as Saleen, etc, within the general Mustang population.

Personally, I think they are very cool, would love to own one if presented the opportunity, but even I don't know very much about them outside of what I've read here on FEP.

I also think your poll options should be expanded as very few cars are on the same level as a Yenko Camaro. To me, that is a totally different ball of wax, same with Motion Performance cars etc.

[bluesfannoz]

Thanks Chris! I needed to hear that. I think you hit on a important part of this. The Dominator has many faces. But it never was just a sticker car. At minimum all cars had long tube headers. Which was an Emission violation risk for the dealership to put on.

Here is an example of putting long tube headers on a new mustang. 15+ rear wheel horsepower increase.

http://allfordmustangs.com/forums/ti...o-results.html

I am not proclaiming that back then the long tubes gave it that much. I am just using that as an example of how this made it a more powerful car over a stock one, and that was just one of the mods they put on the stage I cars.
So it wasn't like they just put some stickers on the car. They truly did things to the car to back up their ads. They wanted the cars to be faster than the guy in the regular GT next to them. I won't argue that I am sure the people who bought them overpaid for what they got.. But does that make the cars less desirable?

The 1985 Dominator I had back in the day, before I made any modifications to it, would pull away from my friends stock 85 every time. So they backed up their claims.

I think things are best viewed in light of the times. This was the very beginning of the 5.0 performance era. Not much was known, and the aftermarket was very limited. Ad to that the gas crunch, tougher emissions, and the general lack of performance they were doing the best they could. There was much more emphasis on looking fast, and is probably why the ASC McLarens, Predators, and Saleens were so popular even though most of them were all just cosmetic. The Dominators (especially the early Stage III cars) had a decent number of performance mods (headers, ram air, ignition) for the time, and for being a small-time dealership building a few cars. Sure they weren't 350 horsepower, but nothing was at the time. The Yenkos were little more than a COPO camaro that anyone who knew what they were doing could order with a sticker package. The Baldwin Motion cars were on a different level, but those cars were ungodly expensive and were true supercars in their time. I find all of the special edition mustangs attractive, Predators, Dominators, McLarens... they are all unique. It's unfortunate we don't have a more concrete way to verify Dominators... but I have a feeling we will at some point with all of the research you are doing.

[bluesfannoz]

Thanks for your input. I agree with you that the lack of information about them, causes much of the grief that I receive.

After reading this, I see that the difference on the Yenko's was that ultimately Chevrolet acknowledged Yenko and worked with him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yenko_Camaro

What Vince Hancock and Randy League were doing with the Dominators was the same thing Don Yenko did.

They raced these cars at the track. Set ADRA records. And sold the cars too. You could watch the car at the track and walk into the dealership the next day and buy one. Their overall sales of Mustang GT's would tell you that they had pretty substantial pull in the Midwest region. So do I think ultimately it will be proven that they were legitimized behind the scenes, like a Yenko. I believe so.

As for changing the poll.. If I knew how I would. I would remove the yenko.

I think the Dominator package suffers from having too little be known about them outside the circle of people that really enjoy them. Being a dealer added package within a specific region and not being a "manufacturer" probably alters perception as well and doesn't place them on the same level as Saleen, etc, within the general Mustang population.

Personally, I think they are very cool, would love to own one if presented the opportunity, but even I don't know very much about them outside of what I've read here on FEP.

I also think your poll options should be expanded as very few cars are on the same level as a Yenko Camaro. To me, that is a totally different ball of wax, same with Motion Performance cars etc.

[bluesfannoz]

Why are there so many reads and only 5 votes? Express yourself!

[tORMENtOR]

The Dominators remind me of the Royal Bobcats Pontiac put out in the 60's. I think the Dominators were very special cars,when performance in the 80's was down,Summit came out with a great package for thoose who wanted to buy a high performance car off the showroom floor. The were doing it before Saleen,Steeda and others started modding the Fox's.

As far as feedback from other sites,I would'nt expect much as people are so unfamilar with the history of these cars. Same goes for the 79-81 Cobra's,the are not considered real Cobras to most people on thoose sites.

Keep up the good work on your research project Bluesfannoz

[85 Speedfreak]

You could look at this from another angle.You know these cars were special in performance while the others think nothing of them.Great I used to look for 455 equipped Buick Gran Sports and could buy them cheap and have loads of fun driving and racing them.
It WAS a lot easier for me to get a race with a Buick than a Camaro,Lack of knowledge made them cheap money makers to a point.
You have the same opportunity to buy relatively unknown cars that you love at a discount because they are just sticker cars anyway right?
A golden opportunity exists now while they are still relatively obscure so live it up!Keep it under your hat until you can find some stage three cars the show them what's up.

[Blainer]

I think the 79-86 fox mustangs are all in the same boat and all get harsh critizism. People say "ah its just a 1980 what ever mustang"...at the 30th International Mustang Meet I overheard a guy say that the 80's mustangs shouldnt be concidered mustangs and dont deserve the recognition". My wife had to calm me down and hold me from going over there. I am afraid the fox mustangs and especially the low production, named and badged cars will keep getting looked down upon untill the distant future. It's a sad reality but the truth.

[Droog]

As a regular member of Yenko.net, I've argued this same point before. And believe me, there are others in the hobby who feel the same way. The Fox cars time is coming, it's just going to take awhile.

Keep in mind, 25 years ago, nobody outside of a few hardcore collectors knew much or anything about Yenko Camaros. COPO Chevelle's were not positively identified until the mid-late 80's. Baldwin-Motion cars didn't gain widespread recognition until the last 10-15 years. In fact, new cars are still being indentified. A "Fast Track" L88 powered Nova from a dealership called Cordia Chevrolet was recently discovered. Debate still rages in the Pontiac hobby over a pair of "factory" built Ram Air V GTO Judges delivered new to Knafel Pontiac. And even today, as well known as the Yenko cars are, there is new information coming to light every day. And alot of misconceptions regarding those cars.

What I'm trying to say is, uncovering the whole story on the Dominator may take decades, but the more that is known and disseminated to the public at large, the more interest there's going to be. I also believe that, as Foxes become more collectible, more of these dealer prepped "Super Stangs" will come to light.

After studying the specs on these cars, I believe that a top option Stage III in a hatch, or even better, a coupe, was a 12 second capable car with a good driver on a good day. This puts them in the top echelon of musclecars from the 60's, let alone the 80's, and I think the time is quickly approaching when we see a Dominator Mustang residing in a collection along side all those legendary cars like Yenkos and Nickeys and Baldwin Motions. I also think we're not far from the first Dominator feature in a magazine like Musclecar Review.

[mossybull]

great observation droog,and this gives me hope that someday we will have t-top #'s.

[eeprete]

great observation droog,and this gives me hope that someday we will have t-top #'s.

I just read droog's post and agree, it's a good analysis and comparison, nice post.

[theemustangman]

Don't take this the wrong way But YENKO Camaro's were a Joke Compared to the Yenko Nova That out performed it and was even rarer......LOL, not that i would turn down a yenko anything.

So being that a 82 GT is just a 82 Mustang With different badges, and ground effects does that make it a Joke??? what about anything that is a limited or special edition? It's value lies with the beholders.

Who cares what other people think?? Keep collecting them, and when they are worth 5 times what you paid for them people can then kiss your butt because you snapped them all up when people thought they were nothing.

When it comes down to the only ones left in existance are the ones you own then the story will change. and I CANNOT believe how many people on here think that a dominator is a Joke and just a sticker package. THAT IS DISSAPOINTING i thought there was more repect than that for special edition cars on here no matter what they were.


So is an RS w/o a turbo a joke?
is a SVO with Flush headlights a joke because they should be recessed?
is a 86 LX a joke because it doesn't were GT Badges?
is a 80 Cobra a Joke because of the stickers on that hood and side?
is a 84 GT350 Anny a joke because it is no faster than it's sibling 5.0?
is a 79 Pace Car a joke because it is just a Replica of one of the real ones?????
is a 79 Pace Car a joke because it is no faster than it's standard 5.0 Sibling????
is a 83 Coupe w/o t-tops a joke?
is any of this making sense to anyone? NO BECAUSE ITS POINTLESS to say a car is not worth anything because it is or is not something OTHERS think it should be or not be!!

[1982 niGhTmare]

If Dominators are a joke, then Saleen S281's must be a joke too. I mean, afterall I can just buy a normal GT and put parts on it to be faster than the Saleen, so it's just a bodykit and decals, right?

What's the difference between THIS car and THIS car? Other than decals/wheels, nothing. They both have the same 429 SCJ powerplant. So in that case, the fastback must be a joke because compared the Coupe, it's just decals, right?

Externally, what makes a Dominator a Dominator? Three decals and a hood scoop? It's not like it's super flashy like a stock King Cobra with a 140hp 302. But wait, the King Cobra must be a joke too, after all, it's just decals, right?

Who cares what "they" say. YOU like Dominators, YOU have one, and YOU are the one doing research. Screw them. I bet those are the guys that drive v6 SN95's with Cobra badges.

[bluesfannoz]

Thanks for the encouragement guys! Yes I believe whole heartedly that my efforts will be fruitful eventually. It is always nice to hear others agree! There have been some very insightful posts already! Keep em coming!

[Droog]

I've got much more in my mind on this topic, but I don't want to bore anyone. I would like to draw one more comparison.

In 1969, a well known high performance Pontiac dealer in Ohio called Knafel Pontiac built a very small (Best estimates say 10 or 12) run of special GTOs called Golden Sabres. They were all white, had special gold trim and paint, and a Judge rear spoiler (They may have actually been Judges, I don't know. And I don't think anyone else does either.) The most important part of the package was the Ram Air V crate engine, installed at Knafel.

In the 80's, virtually no one outside of a very small core group had ever heard of these cars. Even if you had found one, and advertised it as such, it's doubtful it would have brought any more money than a standard GTO, and probably less than Judge. Slowly, however, the word started spread among the more hardcore enthusiasts (And I would like to say that for the purpose of this conversation, I'm defining hardcore as the big history/numbers geeks like me). After that word spread to the more casual Pontiac guys, and now, if one of these cars were found, it would probably rate as the most valuable GTO on the planet. As of now, none are known to have survived, and without VIN numbers, they would be very hard to document.

I see this as direct parallel to the Dominators. Right now, to me, a Stage III in coupe or hatch form with paper and documentable race history is the most valuable production Fox on the planet. Most of the hobby would disagree with me because most of the hobby is unaware of them, or are aware of them only on the most basic level. The most important things are to keep talking about them, keep educating people, and keep researching. A feature in a national magazine would be a huge step, and I'm currently doing what I can to try and make that happen.

[bluesfannoz]

Thanks for your input! I agree totally! I believe a fully documented Stage III car will be the most valuable Dominator. Any more takers on my Poll?

I've got much more in my mind on this topic, but I don't want to bore anyone. I would like to draw one more comparison.

In 1969, a well known high performance Pontiac dealer in Ohio called Knafel Pontiac built a very small (Best estimates say 10 or 12) run of special GTOs called Golden Sabres. They were all white, had special gold trim and paint, and a Judge rear spoiler (They may have actually been Judges, I don't know. And I don't think anyone else does either.) The most important part of the package was the Ram Air V crate engine, installed at Knafel.

In the 80's, virtually no one outside of a very small core group had ever heard of these cars. Even if you had found one, and advertised it as such, it's doubtful it would have brought any more money than a standard GTO, and probably less than Judge. Slowly, however, the word started spread among the more hardcore enthusiasts (And I would like to say that for the purpose of this conversation, I'm defining hardcore as the big history/numbers geeks like me). After that word spread to the more casual Pontiac guys, and now, if one of these cars were found, it would probably rate as the most valuable GTO on the planet. As of now, none are known to have survived, and without VIN numbers, they would be very hard to document.

I see this as direct parallel to the Dominators. Right now, to me, a Stage III in coupe or hatch form with paper and documentable race history is the most valuable production Fox on the planet. Most of the hobby would disagree with me because most of the hobby is unaware of them, or are aware of them only on the most basic level. The most important things are to keep talking about them, keep educating people, and keep researching. A feature in a national magazine would be a huge step, and I'm currently doing what I can to try and make that happen.

[mattquerio]

I vote that they are more than a sticker package. Even if it's a "low trim" Dominator with nothing more than long tubes, it's still an 80's performance icon (I wouldn't say little known, so much as forgotten). When I meantion Dominators, and Predators to people who were alive in that era... I get a kind of "Oh yeah......I remember those" reaction. In the 80's performance was slim, and these would blow the doors off generally anything on the road, and leave a "What was that?" look on the losing party's face.

Even if it was primarily cosmetic, they are an important car in the history of the fox, and in my eyes highly desirable.

[bluesfannoz]

Something that my research into the Dominators is showing me is that Summit Ford was one of the first to offer a special edition. They were advertising Dominators in the spring of 1982!! Show me one of these other special edition fox Mustangs that has a 1982 model??? I believe they also caught the eye of Ford executives, because Jackie Stewart was called in to visit Summit Ford in the spring of 1982. Checkout this article about his schedule that week, from the Sunday May 9th, 1982, Kansas City Star Page 3 Sports Section.



Some no name dealership selling lowly sticker package mustangs is important enough to fly the flagship Ford guy in when he is that busy??? I leave it to you to decide. Me... I think that shows the Ford recognition of what Summit Ford was doing!

[RichV]

Does it really matter? It is a special edition and that's the reason collectors enjoy/value them. In comparing apples to apples, how did it compare with the time's offerings of its own stablemates and the GM competitors? (I don't know, I know very little about them)

I'd never say they were a 'joke'. I mean look at the Saleens, they were a tiny bit better (performance) then 4 eyed GTs at the time, but collectability is much higher. That was the factory hot-rod of the time and that's what we have to work with, like it or not.

So again, does performance really matter for collecting? I bet if you took a stock P/D you'd probably get spanked by 1/2 the cars in a high school parking lot by today's standards. And most of those are lightly modded turbo'd 4 or 6es, maybe a LSx, or mod motors.

[85mcLaren]

Well - it is all subjective.

As someone stated earlier - it was early in the years. Not much was available. After all - the saleens never really got HP added until 1989. Before that - it was a little suspension and graphics package.

And look at the mclaren coupes. A sticker package, a different airdam and a FEW little add-ins (detector and an alpine or kenwood radio), etc. These were items that ANYONE could buy at a department store or jcwhitney (A&A specialties). No HP was added (I don't want to get in a discussion about a possible b303 cam). Of course I am not downing these 'STRIPED' cars packages (mclarens, saleens, dominators, etc). That is why I own a few - because they are cool looking. But they mainly are what they are - a pretty sticker car..... I am sure Mike or Sandy would argue with me about things like the wheels, spoiler, etc., but like I said - ALL these cars were mainly a STICKER package with a few little upgrades that you could buy in a KMART or at your local dealer.

But - these were exciting times and models back 'in the day'. Remember - the stickers alone gave the assumption the car was muscular, race worthy and a lot faster.... The predators, twisters, mclarens, etc. are cool to talk about.

I am not sure if I would ever justify a rise in price just based on a 'coolness' factor, but hey - like I said, that is why I own a few. All these cars are a good conversation piece.

To me - it is not as exciting as it was back then. Anyone now can just buy a supercharger, nitrous, etc. Back then - it was LITTLE secrets that helped.....

Kinda like the magic we felt as a kid when SANTA would come. Now - it ain't quite the same.

Just my .02 cents.

Jason

[dakota4eyes]

Bluesfannoz,

Keep up the good work.

I have to admit when I started the restoration of my 85 T-TOP Dominator I did it because I liked the car, and had no real idea what "Dominator" meant. Your research helps me somewhat vindicate the time and $$ I'm putting into this thing, as well explain to others what it is.

Not that I hold out hope for Yenko like returns, but at least it's different enough that to me it makes it worth saving.

Up here in the Dakota's, you rarely ever see a 4-eye mustang anymore, and when I take my 86 vert out for a drive I get a thumbs up like I used to get when I drove my dads 68 vert back in high school.

What makes things valuable is having more people who like the item than what's available to own, creating demand. We will get there with 4-eyes.

[Turbo Futura]

.

So being that a 82 GT is just a 82 Mustang With different badges, and ground effects does that make it a Joke??? what about anything that is a limited or special edition? It's value lies with the beholders.



When it comes down to the only ones left in existance are the ones you own then the story will change. and I CANNOT believe how many people on here think that a dominator is a Joke and just a sticker package. THAT IS DISSAPOINTING i thought there was more repect than that for special edition cars on here no matter what they were.


So is an RS w/o a turbo a joke?
is a SVO with Flush headlights a joke because they should be recessed?
is a 86 LX a joke because it doesn't were GT Badges?
is a 80 Cobra a Joke because of the stickers on that hood and side?
is a 84 GT350 Anny a joke because it is no faster than it's sibling 5.0?
is a 79 Pace Car a joke because it is just a Replica of one of the real ones?????
is a 79 Pace Car a joke because it is no faster than it's standard 5.0 Sibling????
is a 83 Coupe w/o t-tops a joke?
is any of this making sense to anyone? NO BECAUSE ITS POINTLESS to say a car is not worth anything because it is or is not something OTHERS think it should be or not be!!

I think it was a marketing idea (stickers,springs,badging, engine swaps from 60's) from dealerships (Ford,GM,Dodge) with performance a heart trying to get a nitch for sales. So Refering to your list of joke cars (spoilers,trim packages,handling packages engine options,etc). are from the manufacture. To me thats collectability. The Dominator/Saleen/Yenko/Grand Spalding Dodge are a slice of the auto pie and people will want them for any reason.

[bluesfannoz]

Sometimes I just have to come reread this thread. Thanks all who chimed in with your support of my Love for these cars. Whether they end up being as valuable as a Yenko Camaro doesn't really matter to me. It matters most that I am not alone in belief that they were more than just a sticker package.