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  1. #26
    FEP Member d9zz's Avatar
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    In the interest of simplicity.... Did you disconnect the throttle cable?
    I pulled my hair out once doing the same thing and the cable
    Wasn't letting the thing close all the way
    I too hadn't touched anything but I had bent the cable bracket
    Doing something unrelated
    Last edited by d9zz; 03-16-2009 at 12:27 AM.
    '79 cobra/357w/toploader etc etc etc
    2013 foureyedfox calendar...Ms. February and cover!
    Best 12.6@110 w/2.0 60'

    "Junk Car" before/after
    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...70#post1476670

  2. #27
    FEP Super Member mmb617's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JACook View Post
    The additional air does not have to be coming in through the carburetor. At idle,
    the throttle blades aren't much more than a controlled vacuum leak. The carburetor
    just adds in emulsified fuel through the idle passages. It can still do that if you've
    got air getting in from somewhere else. A less brute-force carburetor would have
    a pretty severe off-idle stumble under those conditions, but I can't say for sure
    whether that double-pumper would ever notice.

    Since you have very little connected up to manifold vacuum, it should be pretty
    easy to eliminate the obvious suspects. After that, it gets a bit more interesting.

    If blocking off the brake booster hose doesn't settle down your fast idle, the
    next thing I would do is block off those valve cover breathers, and see if anything
    is trying to pull a vacuum on the crankcase.

    BTW, once you get this sorted out, you really do need to consider running either
    a PCV system, or pan evac to the headers. It's really not healthy for your engine
    not having anything to suck out crankcase vapors.
    With your explanation in mind, I would say it's quite probable the problem is a small intake leak, possibly at the intake manifold since I did have that off over the winter. I will have to retorque the bolts and see if that helps.

    I didn't have a lot of time to work on the car this weekend, but I did fiddle with the idle mixture and throttle blade position. I now have it idling at 1200 warmed up. It seems to have all the power it ever did, at least as far as I could tell in the very short WOT runs I can make on the street. The idle is pretty smooth and I don't notice any hesitation when accelerating.

    Bottom line is, I know something's not quite right and I'll keep looking for what it is, but the track opens in two weeks and I'm gonna be there. A trip or two down the track will tell me a lot about how the car's really running since it's the same combo I ran last year, other than much improved suspension. If I trap the same as last year, I won't be losing any sleep over it.

    In the interest of simplicity.... Did you disconnect the throttle cable?
    It took me a while to think of that, but yeah I did. Then even though I'm running double return springs I pushed against the linkage to be sure it wasn't hanging up anywhere.
    408/T5/3.73's

    We're not fast racers, we're more what's known as half fast racers.

  3. #28
    FEP Super Member PaceFever79's Avatar
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    Use carb cleaner to look for a vacuum leak. You really don't want to be running it down
    the track with a big vacuum leak (high rpm lean condition).

  4. #29
    FEP Senior Member
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    Edelbrock

  5. #30

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    Yeah, those are magic.
    Cheers,
    Jeff Cook

    '85 GT Hatch, 5-speed T-Top, Eibachs, Konis, & ARE 5-Spokes ... '85 GT Vert, CFI/AOD, all factory...
    '79 Fairmont StaWag, 5.0, 62K original miles ... '04 Azure Blue 40th Anny Mach 1, 37K original miles...
    2012 F150 S-Crew 4x4 5.0 "Blue Coyote"... 65 coupe, 289 auto, Pony interior ... '67 coupe 6-cyl 4-speed ...
    '68 Vert, Mexican block 307 4-speed... '71 Datsun 510 ...
    And a 1-of-328 Deep Blue Pearl 2003 Marauder 4.6 DOHC, J-Mod, 4.10s and Lidio tune

  6. #31
    FEP Power Member grtskydog's Avatar
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    LOL...Yeah, I could never get the rich WOT tuned on my Eddy. I'd put it on a truck or RV I guess...real reliable

    Any luck finding vac leaks?
    Last edited by grtskydog; 03-17-2009 at 07:39 AM.
    Ed

    "The Dude abides."

  7. #32
    FEP Super Member PaceFever79's Avatar
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    The Eddy AFB is a good carb. More reliable and fuel efficient than a Holley (especially
    the old 1850 type that it most resembles). Eddy carbs are easy to tune once you know
    how to tune them and they can be modified to perform better and even work with blow
    through superchargers if you know what you're doing. In the end they will be a tenth or
    two slower than an equal size Holley. But that doesn't matter much to a guy that drives
    on the street most of the time and races on occasion.

  8. #33

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    Not sure if anyone said it yet, or if the problem is fixed yet, but I had the same problem on my 650. On the idle air screws there are little gaskets. If one falls out you will have a constant leak. Pull the screw all the way out and look inside.
    88 TC w/15psi, 79 PC currently undergoing EFI conversion.

  9. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaceFever79 View Post
    The Eddy AFB is a good carb. More reliable and fuel efficient than a Holley (especially
    the old 1850 type that it most resembles). Eddy carbs are easy to tune once you know
    how to tune them and they can be modified to perform better and even work with blow
    through superchargers if you know what you're doing. In the end they will be a tenth or
    two slower than an equal size Holley. But that doesn't matter much to a guy that drives
    on the street most of the time and races on occasion.
    The thing I take exception to in this is the "than a Holley" part, as if one Holley
    is pretty much the same as another Holley. They're not.

    If a person doesn't have the skills to tune their Holley carb, what makes the AVS
    faithful think they'll do any better with the Eddy?

    The most frequent problem people have with Holleys is they buy the wrong one
    for their application, then blame Holley for making carbs that are too big for a
    stock-ish 302...
    Cheers,
    Jeff Cook

    '85 GT Hatch, 5-speed T-Top, Eibachs, Konis, & ARE 5-Spokes ... '85 GT Vert, CFI/AOD, all factory...
    '79 Fairmont StaWag, 5.0, 62K original miles ... '04 Azure Blue 40th Anny Mach 1, 37K original miles...
    2012 F150 S-Crew 4x4 5.0 "Blue Coyote"... 65 coupe, 289 auto, Pony interior ... '67 coupe 6-cyl 4-speed ...
    '68 Vert, Mexican block 307 4-speed... '71 Datsun 510 ...
    And a 1-of-328 Deep Blue Pearl 2003 Marauder 4.6 DOHC, J-Mod, 4.10s and Lidio tune

  10. #35
    FEP Power Member grtskydog's Avatar
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    Well, I consider myself a pretty decent carb-tuner. I went through more money than I care to admit buying rods and jets for my 1406. I have a nice Excel spread that calculates the area of all rod/jet combos to figure out what and how much a rod/jet combo would lean or richen. I still couldn't get the WOT to lean past about 11:1 (I use an Innovate WB reader).

    I put my "built" 4180 back on and you could actually feel the difference in the butt-dyno alone. Definitely not a slam on the Eddy carb. It drove good and was very reliable, and an extremely simple design to work on. It was that off-idle to about 3k, the 1406 felt like it was holding back. That's why I say it's great for a daily driver...or an old GM sled. I guess I'm just pissed that for the money I have in rods and jets, I could probably own a complete gas AND alcohol jet set for a Holley.
    Last edited by grtskydog; 03-20-2009 at 07:49 AM.
    Ed

    "The Dude abides."

  11. #36
    FEP Super Member PaceFever79's Avatar
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    Hey it's click and clack

    I've been tuning carbs for decades. I like Holley and Edelbrock/AFB carbs.
    But my street cars usually run a worked AFB style carb.

    To each his own!

  12. #37

    Default Click Responds...

    The point is, it's all about choosing the right size carb in the first place. If you
    do that, then what brand you choose is not as important as the carburetor
    evangelists among us would have us to believe, because it'll most likely be just
    about right out of the box. If you choose wrong, it's not because the brand
    you chose is no good, it's because you chose wrong. The biggest advantage
    Edelbrock has, IMO, is that they don't make huge double-pumper carbs.

    I think it's kinda humorous how people will defend what is sometimes clearly the
    wrong choice, or prescribe we all should change to their brand no matter what
    the problem. You have one group that will tell you how swapping their old brand
    'H' carb with a new brand 'E' solved all their problems, never stopping to consider
    the possibility that the only reason the 'E' was better was because it was new.
    Then there's the other group that says they can tune an 850DP to work just
    fine on a lawnmower engine. I'd like to see more of those guys volunteering their
    time to help tune those carbs for the poor guy that's having problems, and isn't
    a carburetor guru.

    Here, we had a situation that is clearly a vacuum leak problem, and the 'fix' that
    was suggested was to buy a different brand of carb. While I don't agree with
    the OP's choice of a 650DP, that choice is not causing his high idle problem.

    This isn't a popularity contest. If you like Edelbrock carbs, fine. If you prefer
    Holley carbs, fine. I think there's value in discussing the why, in specific terms.
    Otherwise, the discussion takes on a religious tone.

    If you do a bit of searching, you will see that I have said many times, you won't
    find a better -street- carb for a 5.0 than the factory 4180c that came on the
    '83-'85 four-eyes. I've given reasons. And I've also provided a recipe of sorts
    that will put that 4180C pretty close to right for the majority of guys that have
    one.

    "Clack" recently went back to the 4180C, and is reporting his real-life results,
    with some actual data points to back 'em up. He's also evaluating the new Summit
    carburetor, and doing a thorough factual job with it. No magazine fluff. From
    what I've seen of this carburetor so far, production glitches aside, I'm expecting
    good things. But the jury is still out.
    Cheers,
    Jeff Cook

    '85 GT Hatch, 5-speed T-Top, Eibachs, Konis, & ARE 5-Spokes ... '85 GT Vert, CFI/AOD, all factory...
    '79 Fairmont StaWag, 5.0, 62K original miles ... '04 Azure Blue 40th Anny Mach 1, 37K original miles...
    2012 F150 S-Crew 4x4 5.0 "Blue Coyote"... 65 coupe, 289 auto, Pony interior ... '67 coupe 6-cyl 4-speed ...
    '68 Vert, Mexican block 307 4-speed... '71 Datsun 510 ...
    And a 1-of-328 Deep Blue Pearl 2003 Marauder 4.6 DOHC, J-Mod, 4.10s and Lidio tune

  13. #38

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    Very well spoken, and very true. We all can learn something from JAcook. Thanks you!
    Yep my **** is coming apart again... Isnt life great!

    (My peeps!)
    http://www.sbftech.com/
    http://www.fordstrokers.com/index.php

  14. #39
    FEP Super Member PaceFever79's Avatar
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    Shakes head okay!

    I'm always down for a straw man argument.

  15. #40
    FEP Power Member grtskydog's Avatar
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    LOL...Clack is done.

    Got the replacement Summit carb yesterday. I can already tell ya it looks a lot better casting-wise than the last one. Time to go bolt it on.
    Last edited by grtskydog; 03-20-2009 at 01:52 PM.
    Ed

    "The Dude abides."

  16. #41
    FEP Super Member mmb617's Avatar
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    Default Looks like you guys were right.

    After being told by a bunch of you that my problem was a vacuum leak, and ruling out any leaks in the lines, all that was left to check was the intake gasket. I hated to pull it because I had been having trouble with an oil leak last year and replaced the intake gasket over the winter, and it doesn't leak a drop of oil now but I knew it had to be done.

    I found something that looks like a sure source of vacuum leakage. See how the gasket is blown out at the top of the port? Remember the intake is upside down in this picture.





    So my next question was, why did it do that? The answer to that turned out to be so obvious I could have kicked myself for not noticing it when I installed the intake.

    I had used a stock Felpro gasket which had port sizes of 1.95 x 1.10 inches. I put it against my Vic jr intake and it matched up real well. However I didn't realize that the ports on my heads are 2.10 x 1.25 inches. The end result was almost no gasket at the top of the ports.

    I wanted to get the car back together this weekend, but by the time I found out this information NAPA was closed and they are the only local supplier who might stock the right gasket. It's special order at both Autozone and Advance. If I can't get it from NAPA tomorrow, I'll order one from Summit.

    At least I feel confident that I've located the problem as the gasket is blown without a doubt.

    Thanks to all who offered help. I'll give you what better be the good news as soon as I get the car back together.
    408/T5/3.73's

    We're not fast racers, we're more what's known as half fast racers.

  17. #42

    Default

    felpro 1250's have the larger intake ports for your heads. glad to hear you found something
    79 Capri RS
    341 rwhp,348 rwtq 11.20@127


    1939 Pontiac Deluxe 6. 73,xxx original miles. Barn find. Currently the secomd owner.

    2013 Focus ST
    2012 Taurus SEL
    1997 F350

  18. #43

    Default

    Glad you got it figured out. You can have your thread back.

    The gasket you need is the FelPro 1262, but I wouldn't use the regular 1262
    gaskets. They're too soft. The FelPro 1262S-3 is a MUCH better gasket.
    Cheers,
    Jeff Cook

    '85 GT Hatch, 5-speed T-Top, Eibachs, Konis, & ARE 5-Spokes ... '85 GT Vert, CFI/AOD, all factory...
    '79 Fairmont StaWag, 5.0, 62K original miles ... '04 Azure Blue 40th Anny Mach 1, 37K original miles...
    2012 F150 S-Crew 4x4 5.0 "Blue Coyote"... 65 coupe, 289 auto, Pony interior ... '67 coupe 6-cyl 4-speed ...
    '68 Vert, Mexican block 307 4-speed... '71 Datsun 510 ...
    And a 1-of-328 Deep Blue Pearl 2003 Marauder 4.6 DOHC, J-Mod, 4.10s and Lidio tune

  19. #44
    FEP Super Member mmb617's Avatar
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    Default I can't think you guys enough!

    Well I replaced the intake gasket this afternoon. The only one I could get locally on a Sunday with the correct port sizes was a Mr Gasket from NAPA. It's a composite with the printoseal on the intake side but not the head side so I used some RTV around the ports on that side.

    I'm happy to post this picture:



    It's idling at 800 rpm! I don't think it's idled this well since I put the motor in three years ago. The throttle response off idle is instantaneous now. I'm pumped to get to the track this coming Saturday for the season opener, I'm sure I'm gonna have a new best time.

    You guys know your poop! Thanks to all who chimed in with helpful suggestions, I really do appreciate it.
    408/T5/3.73's

    We're not fast racers, we're more what's known as half fast racers.

  20. #45

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    awesome to hear. glad you got it squared away. now you can enjoy the fruits of your labor on all that suspension work. cant wait to hear what your times are.
    79 Capri RS
    341 rwhp,348 rwtq 11.20@127


    1939 Pontiac Deluxe 6. 73,xxx original miles. Barn find. Currently the secomd owner.

    2013 Focus ST
    2012 Taurus SEL
    1997 F350

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