! California specific! new exhaust laws!

[d9zz]

Its illegal to speed and roll through stop signs but the majority of americans do it.
Doesnt make it right BUT
It all comes down to risk vs reward.
I have no im requirements where I live and my fox has a p.c.v. valve and thats it.

Risk = virtually no chance of a federal epa agent fining me for violations.
Reward = something not everybody has that hauls @$$ economically.

My daily driver would pass emmmisions if I had to have it done.
There are all sorts of laws that are on the books with no means of enforcement.

[fordfreak300]

I am taking an insert from the C.A.R.B. website located here http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermk...ftermktcat.htm

The Air Resources Board's (ARB) California Evaluation Procedures for New Aftermarket Non-Original Equipment Catalytic Converters (California Procedures) were adopted by the Board on August 19, 1988. An interim procedure, Optional Evaluation Procedures for New Aftermarket Non-Original Equipment Catalytic Converters, was set up to address requirements specific to catalytic converters for vehicles equipped with on-board diagnostics II (OBD II) systems and went into effect on December 2001. These regulations require new aftermarket catalytic converters to comply with requirements of Title 13, California Code of Regulations (CCR) section 2222(h) in order to be exempted from California's anti-tampering law (Vehicle Code section 27156), thereby allowing them to be offered for sale, sold, installed or used in California.

The ARB adopted revised regulations and evaluation procedures in October 2007 for the approval of new aftermarket catalytic converters sold in California. The requirements apply to all new aftermarket converters produced for sale or sold in California after January 1, 2009. The requirements also sunset provisions allowing the sale of certified used catalytic converters beginning July 10, 2008. This means that no used converter can be legally advertised for sale, sold, or installed in California after this date.

This means they can not be sold or installed after that date. I had mine installed before that date. I also purchased it before that date. Now if you have one already that was C.A.R.B. approved I would assume it is still fine. Also if you buy a used one from someone else that had purchased it before the date of Jan. 1st, 2009 they would have no idea you bought and installed a pipe with new cats. It also appears it is only the cats and not the pipes them selves that are in question. Now if you read the last 2 lines of the quote it also states used cats can not be advertised for sale, sold, or installed in california after this date. They will have no way to stop that.

At any rate I think the work around is that you already have the h or x pipe before Jan 1st, 2009, if you didn't then purchase a used one from someone.

[fordfreak300]

Tony my above doesn't help you very much in that your cat failed and your going to have to get a new cat. I do have one solution for you. It will take 2 trips to my house for you though. 1 to pick up my stock h-pipe and 1 to return it after your car is smoged.

[Marz]

It may be sealing the fate of my 84 also. I just spent a bunch of money and time to convert my carbed car to SEFI so I could remain smog legal at all times. No more switching parts to beat the system with teh carb set up. I was happy and thought I could be smog legal 100% of the time and even spent $450 on my bbk x-pipe that was at the time 50 state legal. I am not sure if mine is still 50 state legal or not. I will have to look into it. Once I have the car ready to go I will take it to the smog station and get the car smoged and if it fails because of this x-pipe I will take it back with my stock h-pipe then put the catted x-pipe back on the car. I see smog shops starting to take a little extra money to pass people with the different exhausts.

My question is this, how will they know if the pipe that was formerly a carb exempt pipe wasn't placed on the car before this law change?

I'm wondering about that too. My LTD LX has a stock looking single exhaust. But my 85 GT was converted to a 86+ true dual H-pipe years ago. The damn thing passes the sniffer super clean! These A$$holes are wanting us to use less clean cats and setups instead of a set up that is more efficient. It makes no sense!

Jeremy don't count your self out they can change the laws to say your 66 has to have smog too. They have been talking about that for a few years now. With each state being able to legally make it's own smog laws I wouldn't surpass California to make that law.

They did it in the past. I had a 66 Charger I wanted to restor but the cali nazis screwed that up with their idiot laws. May be best to just go 1950's. But sema and Leno had a good fight at the most recent attempt to smog cars as early as 1959 and won. We just need to get the right people to help fight this.

[Marz]

Tony my above doesn't help you very much in that your cat failed and your going to have to get a new cat. I do have one solution for you. It will take 2 trips to my house for you though. 1 to pick up my stock h-pipe and 1 to return it after your car is smoged.

I'd just toss an universal on his and hope the shop is cool and ignores it. Hell, the guys I go to just run the sniffer and the evap BS and let me go. They've never once looked at my Cats. Now I'm wondering!

BTW: I just joined SEMA and asked them about this.

[50 Proof]

People seem to think that because their own particular state or local government doesn't have an "emissions test" for certain model years, that they're then free to modify, remove, bypass, or render inoperable any or all emissions systems on their cars. It is still illegal under the Federal Clean Air Act, which dates back over 40 years. Maybe people don't know, or they don't care, or whatever.

as childish as this may sound, nothing is illegal until you get caught. If a particular state or local government doesn't have an "emissions test" for certain model years, then who is going to find out if you remove, bypass, or render inoperable any or all emissions systems on your car?

In some states, since clearly no one is available to find out and clearly some states don't care enough to check, then why would anyone living in such a state give a flying **** what the Federal Clean Air Act says? Illegal by technical form only, but is not enforced; therefore does not matter and no longer applies.

[v8only]

at least my 66 has some value. I'd sell it and pick up a 65. The 86 however, is only worth the sum of it's mechanical parts

Mark, your bbk pipe was never 50 state legal. Magnaflow is the only company out there at all to have carb legal #'s for a mustang h or x pipe.

BBK never certified any of their pipes for carb.

In deans case, he bought a pipe that WAS legal to run. I called magnaflow, and they said that if you have an older unit like his, pre Jan laws...you'd have to provide proof via shop receipts for install that the pipes were installed prior to the new law.

since we're all backyard mechanics, this ****s us all over.

I wanted to add, that if any of us do cough up what will be a tremendous amount of cash for the new carb exempt h pipe, you'd better damned well have some install receipts from a shop, and showing that your car had bad cats and needed the new h pipe. If you don't have those receipts proving your old cats were bad, kiss any carb exemption down the drain.

DEAN, MARK don't get discouraged. Just run the stock 4 catted pipe for inspection purposes then swap it out afterward.

[anthonydalrymple]

People seem to think that because their own particular state or local government doesn't have an "emissions test" for certain model years, that they're then free to modify, remove, bypass, or render inoperable any or all emissions systems on their cars. It is still illegal under the Federal Clean Air Act, which dates back over 40 years. Maybe people don't know, or they don't care, or whatever.

Huh? You must be talking about the "other 49 state" people? I and for the most part others do abide by the laws; problem is they keep changing them. I don't know what I'm going to be dealing with this May when I have to smog this car. All I can tell you is that if it gets too stupid? I'll build a big polluting stroker big block'd Pre-66 Ford & drive it daily as a commuter car. There is a point of no return & I'm damb near close too it. And what did the tree hugger's & power monger's really accomplish? NOTHING but burn my precious hard earned money & I'll be happy to pollute 10 times as much compared to what was a "clean" '89 'vert that I love dearly.....

[v8only]

i've got a clean 70 maverick grabber with a straight frame now that's got your name written all over it (frame was straightened yesterday)

In all seriousness though Tony, unless you can come up with receipts proving that you need the new magnaflow h, you're never gonna pass legally

[fordfreak300]

Tony, I was just talking with my uncle and he already knew about this law. He talked to some exhaust guys and said the work around is to buy the cat out of state and have it shipped to you. You can also order one online still have have it shipped to you, just state it is not for a car that will be driven on the street. Then have a buddy at work weld it on for you. The law only applies to anything sold after Jan 1st, 2009 and they have no way of knowing on the older cars when the h or x pipe was installed, which is as I thought. Marz is on the right track with buy a universal cat from summit have it shipped to you and have it welded on your car on the side. If your cat is bad and your pipe is new enough you may also be able to send it back to magnaflow under warranty and have them replace it. It is worth a call to them to find out.


Jeremy I suggest you research what emissions were on the 66 mustang, it was the first year they had smog of some sort on them, buy it and have it ready to install. My uncle mentioned the same thing to me about California tossing around the idea of smog starting from 66 and on. Better do the same for your maverick. I really think that California will put that law into effect and sneak it buy us also in order to make some money. Santa Clarita has joined the band wagon on road side smog tests. So I have seen them between Yucca Valley and San Bernardino, my uncle has seen them in Santa Clarita, Jeremy posted pics in Corona. It's becoming a reality and we have to be ready for it. Our state is broke and looking at every way to make money. Look for los of new ways for revenue to be made at our expense in any sort of way here in California.

[v8only]

I was discussing this with Magnaflow. It's not exactly a work around.

BY LAW, you'll be required to provide receipts FROM THE SHOP that installed the x or h pipe, showing that it was done before the new Jan law took effect. NO receipts, NOT legal.

As well, you could weld in a new cat to his old x, but once again, it won't matter..he can't prove he installed it before the new law.

THE ONLY WAY you can install the newer cats into an older pipe is to do it yourself, but then to be 100% legal, the ONLY way it can be done is to have all 4 welded into the stock factory h pipe.

The only work around is to pay magnaflow for their new 50 state legal h pipe, that hasn't come out yet. At that, you better damned well have a shop install it too so you can have receipts showing that the shop said you needed it. IF you can't prove that you needed the pipe and it was installed by a legal shop authorized to work on cats, then you are NOT legal, period.

I'll gauran-****ing-tee that any smog stings will be set up to ask you for proof that your cats were tampered with LEGALLY, and if you cannot prove it, then you're in hot water. You and I are not authorized to be swapping out H or X pipes.

[50 Proof]

I'll gauran-****ing-tee that any smog stings will be set up to ask you for proof that your cats were tampered with LEGALLY, and if you cannot prove it, then you're in hot water. You and I are not authorized to be swapping out H or X pipes.

That's complete b.s. Joe Smith at the local exhaust shop is no more qualified than you or me. Think about it, you can't always tell when your cats are bad. So what makes a shop qualified to swap out what could be a perfectly good cat? Exhaust shops have no way of telling if your cats are good or bad. There's nothing that makes an exhaust shop qualified over you or me. All that matters is the CARB EO number on your cats and the receipt in which you purchased the catalytic coverters.

Our Mustangs are old enough to mandate having to go to a Test Only Center. A test only center is not allowed to repair your car, make repair recommendations, or refer you to a shop. Who is authorized to determine that your cats are bad if the smog station isn't authorized to do so? An ASE certified mechanic can't tell if you have bad cats without smog testing your car really and if you have to go to a test only center, then there aren't any smog technicians available to tell you whether or not your cats are bad.

Since no one is technically authorized to tell you that you have bad cats, installing new cats at a shop or in your garage doesn't make a difference. Hold your receipts that prove when you bought the x-pipe and you should be fine. I don't think the person you spoke to at Magnaflow really know what he was talking about.

[Marz]

I wonder if a large group of us could get together and sue California just for Sh!ts and giggles and get them to stop this stuff? Make them aware that what they are doing actually produces more smog....

[yodaddyz82gt]

Well, for those of us that already have replacement cats on their cars what's going to happen? I don't think most exhaust shops would care if you buy a cat from say summit and ask the exhaust shop to install it. I don't need to smog my mustang this year. Which is strange cause I thought it was a yearly thing now.

same here..

[yodaddyz82gt]

whats the big deal about having x or h pipe anyway? like is it the end of the world or something? I spent big $$$ but had new pipe with new cats and 40 series flows installed, but NO x o h pipe. Am i ok? i have the receipt, passed smog last year ,ans was installed pre-2009.

[v8only]

whats the big deal about having x or h pipe anyway? like is it the end of the world or something? I spent big $$$ but had new pipe with new cats and 40 series flows installed, but NO x o h pipe. Am i ok? i have the receipt, passed smog last year ,ans was installed pre-2009.

no, you're not legal unless they installed the magnaflow carb certified h or x into your car and you have the receipts to prove the install date.

If they cut and welded replacements into your stock pipes, then you're legal as long as they kept the original configuration...which on an 82 is not a true dual.

If they made their own x or h pipe custom with cats in it, it's not smog legal.

GUys, we're not authorized to be an "installer". Installers cannot be just anyone, they have to be certified to replace and inspect the cats...

that's why john doe, or you or I cannot opt to replace them.

[Slick 5.0]

no, you're not legal unless they installed the magnaflow carb certified h or x into your car and you have the receipts to prove the install date.

If they cut and welded replacements into your stock pipes, then you're legal as long as they kept the original configuration...which on an 82 is not a true dual.

If they made their own x or h pipe custom with cats in it, it's not smog legal.

GUys, we're not authorized to be an "installer". Installers cannot be just anyone, they have to be certified to replace and inspect the cats...

that's why john doe, or you or I cannot opt to replace them.

This suck's. i think i dont want my fox any more. my cat'd x i pay 200 used for last year.

[Marz]

I wonder if we can get enough of us to file a class action lawsuit against California and those responsible for passing this new law....

[v8only]

get it started, I'll sign it.

[50 Proof]

I wonder if we can get enough of us to file a class action lawsuit against California and those responsible for passing this new law....

sue them on what grounds? In their eyes, they are trying to prevent us from over polluting the environment. That's how it will appear in court too.

[varn82]

what they forget to realize is that requiring people to continually replace items on their cars to pollute "less" the pollution produced to make the new items, matched with the pollution created everytime someone in government opens their mouths, is more than just leaving your cars alone. just like trying to faze out older vehicles as gross polluters. on what grounds? making people buy new cars that pollute "less" is a farce. the pollution and waste produced, not to mention the petroleum used to create all the plastics in the new vehicles, far outweighs someone driving an older vehicle that may pollute slightly more. just goes to show that politicians do what large corporations want them to.

[50 Proof]

Exactly

...not to mention, buying new cars helps out the economy and helps out the government when taxes are assessed on that expensive new car with an easy 72 month installment plan

**** That!!!

[fordfreak300]

Jeremy did you read what C.A.R.B. said where I quoted from teh website. It only is for cats sold after Jan 1st, 2009. I called my local smog shop today and asked them, they said they have no way of telling when I bough tit so if it was already 50 state legal and had a carb e.o number it will be fine. I don't care what magnaflow says, they aren't Smoging my car, they want me to buy their new products. The smog shop that is going to smog my car says I am exempt because I had already purchased the cats and have my carb e.o. number stamped on them so I am fine.

To requote my quote

The Air Resources Board's (ARB) California Evaluation Procedures for New Aftermarket Non-Original Equipment Catalytic Converters (California Procedures) were adopted by the Board on August 19, 1988. An interim procedure, Optional Evaluation Procedures for New Aftermarket Non-Original Equipment Catalytic Converters, was set up to address requirements specific to catalytic converters for vehicles equipped with on-board diagnostics II (OBD II) systems and went into effect on December 2001. These regulations require new aftermarket catalytic converters to comply with requirements of Title 13, California Code of Regulations (CCR) section 2222(h) in order to be exempted from California's anti-tampering law (Vehicle Code section 27156), thereby allowing them to be offered for sale, sold, installed or used in California.

The ARB adopted revised regulations and evaluation procedures in October 2007 for the approval of new aftermarket catalytic converters sold in California. The requirements apply to all new aftermarket converters produced for sale or sold in California after January 1, 2009. The requirements also sunset provisions allowing the sale of certified used catalytic converters beginning July 10, 2008. This means that no used converter can be legally advertised for sale, sold, or installed in California after this date.

Where does it state cats bought before Jan 1st, 2009 are not longer allowed? It has to do with new cats sold after Jan 1st, 2009. I have made this portion bold to stand out in the above quote. I read through the entire C.A.R.B. website dealing with this and no where does it mention Cats previously sold with a C.A.R.B. E.O. number are now illegal if previously purchased and installed. All this means is that some of the pipes we previously bought, we can no longer buy. We just have to buy different ones now when ours wear out. The people it really hurts are people like Tony whom need to replace a cat on their pipes. For those of us that already bought our pipes we are fine, nothing to worry about.

[v8only]

Mark, you don't understand, the x pipe you bought was never carb legal to begin with, even before Jan 9 it wasn't carb legal. BBK has and never has had any carb exempt mid pipes.

[fordfreak300]

no, you're not legal unless they installed the magnaflow carb certified h or x into your car and you have the receipts to prove the install date.

If they made their own x or h pipe custom with cats in it, it's not smog legal.

GUys, we're not authorized to be an "installer". Installers cannot be just anyone, they have to be certified to replace and inspect the cats...

that's why john doe, or you or I cannot opt to replace them.

A couple things here, it is not the pipes them selves that get the C.A.R.B. E.O. number it is the cats. Mangnaflow are not the only company with a C.A.R.B. E.O. number so it can be any manufacturer's cats. We are not the installer of the cats, the company that produces the H or X pipe is. We can physically bolt it to our car, they already installed it onto the pipe. This where companies are tricking everyone to thinking you have to use their stuff. They are making people think it is the entire assembly that is C.A.R.B. certified, and that is only true if they are changing the configuration. Which is what most of us want, we want to move to 2 cats instead of 4. Here is another point, how do they know the cats where replaced in california? They don't unless you provide them with the receipt. If your car has an issue in say Nevada while you are on vacation and take your car to an exhaust shop to fix it and they order you up a C.A.R.B. certified Cat, do you think they will send in a receipt to the state of California for you? Heck no they won't, they don't even know where to send it to. California can not regulate where you do your Buisness. If you chose to have your car fixed out of state with parts that are oked for California there is nothing they can do about it. So lets say you actually put that new h pipe on your own garage and just give them the Nevada story I gave you, how will they know the difference?


I know it seems like I am picking on Jeremy here and I am not. He is just bringing up some points that are able to help me show mine. Jeremy and I are actually good friends and I know he will take no ill will towards this. I have been all over this issue today to find out what is allowed and what isn't.