EFI conversion fuel pump questions

[patrickoneal]

Hoping someone here can help me...

I have a 1982 Granada station wagon with a 200 I6. I have a 302 I'm going to fuel inject and swap in. From reading here, I've decided the best way to handle the fuel issue is to replace the fuel tank with one made for an LTD wagon with CFI. As per advice I found here, I've ordered an FC2 fuel tank. I'll be using a camaro fuel pump along with it. For the fuel pickup/pump, I bought this off of ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...006779090&rd=1

From all the pictures on the advance auto and autozone web sites, this looks like a wagon pickup just from the orientation of the float, connector, and fuel connections. Can anyone here confirm that this is in fact a wagon pickup?

Thanks.

[FuturaGuy]

Your pump and sending unit assembly LOOKS like the one for a station wagon but it's hard to be sure with the picture taken at that angle. In the eBay photo there was a Ford part number on the box. Suggest you check with the parts man at a Ford dealer and find out if your assembly is the wagon part. On the wagon sender assembly, the pump is vertical. In one of his posts, LTDScott had pictures of the Camaro pump on an '85 LTD sedan sending unit and the pump appeared to be at a slight angle from vertical.

If all else fails, put the sender in the tank and see if it fits. There are 2 other holes in the tank, one for the filler and the other for a vent valve, so you can attach at string to the float and pull it up and down. Looking thru one hole and shining a flashlight in the other, you should be able to see the float and if it interferes with anything.

[Greywolf]

I hope those two work, I've ordered the same ones (and the fuel pump from the same vendor!).

Sending unit wise, the LTD/Marquis all used a 73-10 ohm sender EXCEPT wth digital gauges. So as long as this is goes from 10-73 ohms, I figure I can "adjust" the arm to work in the F2C tank. Ditto for the fuel pump and pickup.

If it is the digital style (80 to 250 or something like that) then we're hosed. :-P

...or I get a programmable fuel gauge somewhere and have an excuse to do that gauge swap I always wanted :-D

Ben

[patrickoneal]

First off, thanks for moving my post to the proper forum.

Thanks for the replies guys. I'm about 99% sure its a wagon unit. He's selling another thats definitely a sedan unit as it says "BUILT FROM 5/85", the wagon pumps were the same thoughout production as far as I know whereas the sedan changed in 5/85.

[Dean_T]

I think the sedan unit's refer to the fox LTD sedans and I think they did not have the spare tire wells like the fox wagons and the '78-'81 Fairmont/Zephyrs.

Just adding some info bits.

Dean T

[Greywolf]

78-81 Fairmont/Zephyr/Cougar sedans used the same tank as the '78-'86 wagons (Spectra F2A or F2B depending on emissions/year; F2C with fuel injection and pump-in-tank). They are shaped to clear the spare tire well.
In '82-'83 Ford made the trunk deeper and put the spare tire in the corner of the trunk, without a well. The resulting tank (F16A/B/C) was used in sedans and had a flat top. The wagons kept the "shaped" tank and the spare tire remained in the well.
There was a 20 gallon "extended range" version of the F16 tank also.

Ben

[Dean_T]

78-81 Fairmont/Zephyr/Cougar sedans used the same tank as the '78-'86 wagons (Spectra F2A or F2B depending on emissions/year; F2C with fuel injection and pump-in-tank). They are shaped to clear the spare tire well.
In '82-'83 Ford made the trunk deeper and put the spare tire in the corner of the trunk, without a well. The resulting tank (F16A/B/C) was used in sedans and had a flat top. The wagons kept the "shaped" tank and the spare tire remained in the well.
There was a 20 gallon "extended range" version of the F16 tank also.

Ben

Yup! And that's the route I'm going to shoot for with the '83 2 Dr sedan. It's going to be a hoot. If all goes well, I'll get the wagon version for the Friggin' Futura and convert her to EFI. If it's a PITA, then Friggin' stays carbed...

Dean T

[FuturaGuy]

Yup! And that's the route I'm going to shoot for with the '83 2 Dr sedan. It's going to be a hoot. If all goes well, I'll get the wagon version for the Friggin' Futura and convert her to EFI. If it's a PITA, then Friggin' stays carbed...

Dean T

Converting to EFI IS going to be a big PITA. "Paul78Zephyr" and I are both working the problem and helping each other out as much as we can. The tank, fuel lines, brake lines, rear suspension, and the dual exhaust system all fit together like a Chinese puzzle. I spent most of yesterday fitting the exhaust and the fuel lines. I'm getting too old for the lying-under-the-car-s**t and there are only a few warm weekends left this year in this climate.

I'm using Mustang fuel lines that will have to be cut and lengthened. I found a shop in Hartford that does aircraft welding for Pratt & Whitney and they'll do the job for me. Mounting a Mustang fuel filter will require a sheet metal bracket to box in an open section between the trunk floor and the fuel tank support. A local sheet metal shop made one for me and it fits perfectly. The tough part is locating the filter and plumbing the fuel lines around the exhaust. If I ever figure out how to use the digital camera, I'll send pictures.

[patrickoneal]

Converting to EFI IS going to be a big PITA. "Paul78Zephyr" and I are both working the problem and helping each other out as much as we can. The tank, fuel lines, brake lines, rear suspension, and the dual exhaust system all fit together like a Chinese puzzle. I spent most of yesterday fitting the exhaust and the fuel lines. I'm getting too old for the lying-under-the-car-s**t and there are only a few warm weekends left this year in this climate.

I'm using Mustang fuel lines that will have to be cut and lengthened. I found a shop in Hartford that does aircraft welding for Pratt & Whitney and they'll do the job for me. Mounting a Mustang fuel filter will require a sheet metal bracket to box in an open section between the trunk floor and the fuel tank support. A local sheet metal shop made one for me and it fits perfectly. The tough part is locating the filter and plumbing the fuel lines around the exhaust. If I ever figure out how to use the digital camera, I'll send pictures.

Its not that big of a PITA.... I had converted my 81 Fairmont over. I used nylon line and a fuel filter and bracket off an LTD. I also used a fuel cell mounted in the truck instead of a tank. The only problem I had was lack of money and the nylon lines leaking(not good). I ended up usings some rubber EFI line and clamps to get rid of the leaks. This time I bought the tool to press the connectors onto the nylon, as the boiling water method doesn't work. I haven't looked at it closely, but I think I may try to run the lines in the transmission tunnel. This seems like a good way to stay away from the exhaust.

I used megasquirt last time, and it was kind of difficult to tune, though I should have kept messing with it. This time I'm using an ECM out of a mustang.

Whenever I get started on this, I'm going to make sure to take plenty of pictures and document the entire conversion.

[Dean_T]

For my '83 sedan, I plan on using the stock Mustang EFI lines but unbending some of the bends to get some added length. I recall Ken Newman did that for his Futura. For my '78 Friggin' Futura (if I get that far) I hope I can have Classic Lines make a set that is 5" longer - but no bends since they wigged out when I tried to explain to them where to add the 5". I figure they can make a straight line, formed the ends, attached the nylon fuel lines then coil it up and ship it. I can uncoil and put in the bends myself.

Or give up and make one longer set by grafting two ends together using compression fittings.

I think the PITA part for me is getting the who shebang through the California "smog" referee process.

Dean T

[Greywolf]

As best I can tell, F16B fuel tank is the 16 gallon sedan tank and the 16C is 20 gallons.
Ben

[patrickoneal]

The sender came in today, it fits snugly into the F2C tank I ordered. The fuel lines lined up perfectly with an indentation in the tank and the pickup filter is just above the bottom of the tank. I'd say this is definately a wagon pickup/pump. I ohmed out the sender wire to ground and got a range of around 10-65 ohms when moving the float. So this is for the non-digital guages(perfect!).

So, if anyone else needs one, the number to search for if you're searching for new old stock is E4DZ-9H307-B.

I got the F2C tank from a vendor on amazon.com for $117 shipped. Just search for "F2C Fuel Tank"

ETA: I just found another wagon sender/pump on ebay, its not $10 like mine, but it beats paying $100 at the parts store especially since you'll throw the electric pump on it in the trash anyway. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORD-...QQcmdZViewItem

[slomont]

my experience....with a 20 gallon ltd lx i used tbird fuel lines and ltd lx cfi pickup with a 255 mustang high pressure. everything worked great except....

with my low 11/high 10 second combo and under 12-15 gallons the sump would empty and fuel pressure would drop. ended up sumping the tank and running dual walbro 255 inlines with 8an feed lines to 95 gt rails then drainback to stock pickup with 6an. no problems now.

[massacre]

Great info thanks everyone for sharing

[xctasy]

GM and Ford did this electric fuel pump thang in very different ways.



The VB Opel Commodore/Senator/Monza's used A Bosch fuel injection system from 1978. Same wheel base and dimensions as the Fox cars.To the 1/8 of an inch.

Holden in Australia avoided EFi till 1985. All GM stuff used a "stillage pot" to avoid fuel surge, and scavange down to the last ounce of gas. The downside was increased fuel pump failure.


Ford used no stiilage pot, just the "Fly-tongue" fuel pickup and a rudimentary high sided baffle.


Fords rationale was that the tank could be shaped to do the same job as a plastic stillage pot insert/ Ford were only partly successful.


For High and Low pumps above the normal CFi 165 hp range, they work great.


The multiple stage single pumps from 1986 onwards were good too, but when upgraded to say, the Walbro 255 gallon per hour, the return-line has to be nicely submerged.


If you have any problems, have a look at this.


Good fortune.

How you go about it is up to you. but Basin Performance and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ium8jf4Jm04

https://youtu.be/Ium8jf4Jm04

[84lxvert]

[massacre]

GM and Ford did this electric fuel pump thang in very different ways.



The VB Opel Commodore/Senator/Monza's used A Bosch fuel injection system from 1978. Same wheel base and dimensions as the Fox cars.To the 1/8 of an inch.

Holden in Australia avoided EFi till 1985. All GM stuff used a "stillage pot" to avoid fuel surge, and scavange down to the last ounce of gas. The downside was increased fuel pump failure.


Ford used no stiilage pot, just the "Fly-tongue" fuel pickup and a rudimentary high sided baffle.


Fords rationale was that the tank could be shaped to do the same job as a plastic stillage pot insert/ Ford were only partly successful.


For High and Low pumps above the normal CFi 165 hp range, they work great.


The multiple stage single pumps from 1986 onwards were good too, but when upgraded to say, the Walbro 255 gallon per hour, the return-line has to be nicely submerged.


If you have any problems, have a look at this.


Good fortune.

How you go about it is up to you. but Basin Performance and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ium8jf4Jm04

https://youtu.be/Ium8jf4Jm04

Thank you for the video, just bought one of those pump hangers! Love that it has AN fittings already, I was using adaptors on my old tank.

[massacre]

After watching the video again, I may return it.
not sure how I missed this but in the video the stock return line is really short and way above the bottom of the tank.
i have a stock ford fuel sender assembly and the return line goes all the way to the bottom of the tank down to the end of the pump where the fuel sock is.
just like every other obd-1 eec-iv efi I have personally seen.

However I do see the added benefit to the bigger lines so I’ll call them and figure something out.

[massacre]

What I am noticing is that the fox mustang setup in the video uses only a 2 wire connector for the pump. Pump power and pump ground.
my connector is 4 wire. Pump power, pump ground, sender signal, sender ground.

seems like the fox mustang in the video uses separate ports on the gas tank for the fuel pump and the gauge sender. Mine only uses one for both pump and sender.
once I get a tank in my hands, I can prob modify the tank to wire them separately.

[Patrick Olsen]

After watching the video again, I may return it.
not sure how I missed this but in the video the stock return line is really short and way above the bottom of the tank.
i have a stock ford fuel sender assembly and the return line goes all the way to the bottom of the tank down to the end of the pump where the fuel sock is.
just like every other obd-1 eec-iv efi I have personally seen.

Got any pictures of your stock setup? And what did your stock setup come out of? It's been a long, long time since I pulled the pump out of my '89 Mustang GT's tank, so I can't really say what its hanger looks like. But I've seen plenty of pics online of stock Fox-body Mustang hangers, and they all have the short return line with the "duckbill" rubber diaphragm thing on the end.

[Haystack]

What I planned to do on my old 83 when I was thinking about the swap, you can buy threaded fuel filter fittings for the efi filter.

My plan was to take out the stock filter, add an inline pump with fittings and place it on the frame rail where the old filter was and add a new filter in the engine bay and just run a return back to the tank.

Then all you have to do is clean up the fuel hat (or what eber that parts called) and solder in a new tube for a return.

Then you have the stock fuel tank and sending unit with few modification and can always go back to stock.

[massacre]

Got any pictures of your stock setup? And what did your stock setup come out of? It's been a long, long time since I pulled the pump out of my '89 Mustang GT's tank, so I can't really say what its hanger looks like. But I've seen plenty of pics online of stock Fox-body Mustang hangers, and they all have the short return line with the "duckbill" rubber diaphragm thing on the end.

I also have the orange duckbill.
it’s just way down at the bottom of the tank, not way above it like in that video

[massacre]

It’s not my stock setup
my stock setup was carbed.
i found this through a friend, I think it fits the f2c tank

The sender in the video arrived today, its quality is amazing! Fittings are perfect, wiring is perfect, only problem is that it won’t fit my tank.



sender in video is on the left
it is a very well made piece and worth every penny. Well engineered and designed and works flawlessly.
problem is I need the sender on the right.
I thought about trying to make the wiring work, but once I realized that the sender mounting plate was too small to fit, that was a deal breaker.

[massacre]

Wish I could have my sender with the bigger lines installed. That would be the best of both worlds

[gmatt]

Wish I could have my sender with the bigger lines installed. That would be the best of both worlds

I attempted that when I installed efi in my Fairmont. The shop doing the modification said they couldn't fit the bigger lines into the top of the sender. So we kept the stock sender for the fuel gauge and blocked the fuel lines. Then installed larger lines for supply and return directly into the tank. I think I paid around $150 to have it done. I'm running a frame mount pump though.