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  1. #351
    Mike Croke
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    Need some clarification as I've read through this several times and each tangent confuses me. This is for our '84 Turbo RS Capri.

    I have the parts shown in the pics. These 17" Cobra wheels are the ones that will go on the car.

    Front:
    I have SN95 control arms with spindles/hubs attached which I believe are '96+. I also have spindles/hubs separate which are '94-'95. I am pretty sure I need to use the '94-'95 spindles. I will get caster/camber plates.

    - Question 1a: Can/should I use the SN95 arms? Or just put the '94-'95 spindles on the stock '84 control arms with the spacers for the ball joints?
    - Question 1b: Which calipers/rotors should I get?

    - Question 2: Alternatively, should I keep the Fox style spindles and use an 11" rotor like Ranger/SVO/Mark VII?



    Rear:
    Have a complete SN95 8.8" axle assembly. This measures about 61" wide including the rotors between wheel mounting faces so I think this is from a '94-'98 not from a '99-'04.

    - Question 3: Should/can use this as is? Need to pull the SN95 axles and get Fox length axles?



    - Question 4: What springs and struts should I use since this is a 2.3T car (not a 5.0)?

    Attached Images Attached Images      

  2. #352

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    0.5) Yes, they are 1996 spindles.

    1a) If you use the SN95 FCAs, your front track is going to be widened by 1.18" per side. Even running -1.0 degree of camber, you are going to have major issues with tire clearance and the fenders. Some people run this combination with rolled fenders and -2.5 degrees of camber. In addition you will need to get a bumpsteer kit for the longer tie rods, or install stock SN95 inner and outer tie rods.

    1b) Whatever the matching SN95 setup is. I would use the 1999-2004 dual piston PBR GT (non Cobra) front calipers and rotors. If the spindles are 1996-98 models you will need to do some grinding on them to make them fit. Look at the part number on the steering arms.

    2) No.

    2.5) Yes, it is a 1994-98 axle assembly.

    3) With fender rolling and running a 245 or 255 tire, that wheel/axle combination will just fit. It may rub when cornering hard on bigger bumps. A PHB would completely fix that. If you install Fox length axles, you will need to get offset brake caliper brackets from NRC.

    4) I'll take a shot at that later, but it almost completely depends on what type of driving the car will be used for. How stiff do you want it, versus how good do you want the handling to be?

    You will of course need to change the m/c, some of the plumbing and prop valve stuff for the brake conversion. We can easily supply all of that.
    Last edited by Jack Hidley; 09-15-2012 at 04:08 PM.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  3. #353
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    Im not at a computer, but ill give my .02.

    -thise are definitely '96 spindles. Brake choice all depends on the rest of your plans. The later spindles will accept Cobra/Mach brakes with no problems (my current setup. They will also change your trck width enough to make aligning ut somewhat difficult. CC plates should help a lot. '94-5 spindles are really the simplest way to go, and you can install the bigger brakes if you like by a little grinding.
    -Rather than using spacers, replacing the balljoints with ones for an SN95 should resolve it.

    -Question 2 is a no-brainer. No way would I keep the stock style spindles. The SN95 stuff is light years better, and the floating rotors are pretty much the greatest thing since sliced bread, lol.

    -I would DEFINITELY go with fox-length axles. Being stuck with a 245 or 255 tire, AND dealing with tire rub would irritate me to no end. The SN95 rear caliper brackets can be modified to fit, rather than buying the NRC units. I've been running a set for years, and picked up the idea from 85GTVince. He's been running them on a track car forever.

    -as far as the PHB fixing the axle movement, I actually had to add spacers to my rear setup as I was rubbing on the INSIDE after my 5-link-2 install. Perhaps that was more from lack of bind than anything, but just something to think about. Not saying itvis a bad idea at all, though-it was the single most significant change I made to the rear suspension on my car.

    Plumbing/prop valve/MC/Booster is. "Relatively" a non-issue. A SN95 booster, towncar(or similar) MC, with a gutted stock prop valve and an adjustable rear valve would take care of stuff under the hood. The correct set of stainless lines for the brakes you intend tobrun, and some fittings would pretty well get you squared away.

    -On the spring/strut question - Jack, how do the 2.3T Cars differ weight-wise on the front end? Id venture toguess maybe 1-200# with all the turbo, plumbing, intercooler, etc. I've never messed much with a 2.3 car, but have considered it in times past. It would be good to know what considerations to make when looking at changing up the spring/strut combo. Thanks for all your help and knowledge.

    Hope all this helps,
    -Michael
    86 GT... 3.73's, elec fan, underdrive pulley, Bassani E/L Ceramic Coated Headers, Pypes Catted X, and Magnaflow Catback, MGW Shifter.
    5 Lug Conv, with cobra binders, TownCar MC, SN95 Booster
    H&R Race Fronts, Steeda 350# Rear Springs, MM CC plates, Tokico Illuminas, and a Steeda 5-Link-2
    Sounds:
    Image Dynamics IDQ 10.2 in a sealed enclosure with a RF Punch 201S amp

  4. #354
    Mike Croke
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    Thanks for the replies guys. My approach has been to choose the wheels we want first, then try to get the brakes that will fit the wheels. Plumbing comes last after the brakes are chosen.

    Previously in this wonderful thread (just to prove I'm actually reading through all this stuff ), 85GTVince stated the '79-'86 k-member is narrower than the '87-'93 k-member. Does this mean the SN95 control arms work well on the '79-'86 but not so good on the '87-'93?

    If I stick with the stock Fox control arms and the '94-'95 spindles, can I press SN95 ball joints into the stock Fox arms as a direct swap? According to 85GTVince again, no funny business with welding/grinding/adapters/back flips?

    The PBR calipers are a direct fit to the '94-'95 spindles? No grinding or silly adapters? Are the PBR calipers noticeably better than the '94-'98 single pistons or just a lot more expensive?

    Are all GT front rotors the same from '94-'04?

    In the rear, I guess I'll get the Fox length axles and either the NRC brackets or perform the modification outlined by (guess who?) Vince.

    For springs, shocks, struts and cc plates, I will just call Maximum Motorsports and get everything from them. Their reputation is excellent, they've been in business for a couple decades, they are designers and manufacturers instead of retail mark-up salesmen.

  5. #355

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    Mike,

    The SN95 FCAs will work better on the narrower k-member and worse on the wider k-member. Just move your front wheel outwards 1.18" and see if it fits or not.

    SN95 ball joints will press into Fox FCAs. When doing this it is a good idea to use a Loctite bearing and sleeve retainer to ensure they are tight. Absolutely do not weld to the ball joint. Do not buy the ball joints from anywhere but Ford. Most of the aftermarket ball joints are much higher friction. Ford has the lowest friction ball joints available.

    Which PBR calipers? There are three different models. 1994-1998 Cobra, 1999-2004 GT/V6 and 1999-2004 Cobra/Mach1/Bullitt.

    All of the SN95 GT rotors are the same.

    Cutting the stock caliper brackets and mounting them on the backside of the axle flange is a bad idea for a number of reasons. It makes the bracket less stiff, which makes the brakes more likely to moan. The backside of the flanges are not machined. This creates areas of very high localized stress. The material may deform as a result of this and the stress cycles from braking. This will cause the bolts to come loose. Bad things will result. This will also result in the brake pad not being parallel to the surface of the rotor. The pad will wear to fix this, but that doesn't change the fact that the piston bore isn't perpendicular to the rotor. Nothing good will happen. I know that a lot of people do this modification and I'm sure that most of them get away with it in the short and medium term. You are just asking for trouble.

    Since your rear brakes are from a GT, you should also use front brakes from a GT. Using front brakes from a Cobra will result in the wrong brake bias curve, which a proportioning valve can't fix.

    Your approach of starting with the wheels and working backwards is the correct one.

    Some weights:

    In 1983, with the 2.3l as the reference:

    The 2.3lT engine with T5 added 37.6lbs in front and 3.6lbs rear.
    The 5.0l engine with Auto added 82.5lbs in front and 18.1lbs rear.

    1985 GT

    Front 1,809lbs
    Rear 1,320lbs

    1985 SVO

    Front 1,761lbs
    Rear 1,489lbs

    The 1985 GT versus SVO case clouds things up since there are many differences between the two cars aside from the engines. The SVO has heavier FCAs, spindles, front rotors, front calipers, rear rotors, rear calipers, axles, wing, etc.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  6. #356
    Mike Croke
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hidley View Post
    The SN95 FCAs will work better on the narrower k-member and worse on the wider k-member. Just move your front wheel outwards 1.18" and see if it fits or not.
    I'll see if I can mock something to that effect. Why 1.18"? Aren't the SN95 arms only 3/4" longer?


    SN95 ball joints will press into Fox FCAs. When doing this it is a good idea to use a Loctite bearing and sleeve retainer to ensure they are tight. Absolutely do not weld to the ball joint. Do not buy the ball joints from anywhere but Ford. Most of the aftermarket ball joints are much higher friction. Ford has the lowest friction ball joints available.
    What sort of nincompoop would weld the ball joint? I will stick with Ford/Motorcraft on the brand. Thanks.

    Which PBR calipers? There are three different models. 1994-1998 Cobra, 1999-2004 GT/V6 and 1999-2004 Cobra/Mach1/Bullitt.
    I thought the PBR designation only applied to the '99-'04 twin piston calipers? Are the '94-'98 single piston calipers also made by PBR?


    Cutting the stock caliper brackets and mounting them on the backside of the axle flange is a bad idea for a number of reasons. It makes the bracket less stiff, which makes the brakes more likely to moan. The backside of the flanges are not machined. This creates areas of very high localized stress. The material may deform as a result of this and the stress cycles from braking. This will cause the bolts to come loose. Bad things will result. This will also result in the brake pad not being parallel to the surface of the rotor. The pad will wear to fix this, but that doesn't change the fact that the piston bore isn't perpendicular to the rotor. Nothing good will happen. I know that a lot of people do this modification and I'm sure that most of them get away with it in the short and medium term. You are just asking for trouble.
    I can cheat a bit on that part as I am a machinist and can skim cut the bracket to achieve a flat mounting surface. In addition, I could make a piece that would bolt in place of the removed section to restore some strength and rigidity. Although, since the bracket is being bolted to the axle flange, I'm not certain there would be much appreciable difference.

    Since your rear brakes are from a GT, you should also use front brakes from a GT. Using front brakes from a Cobra will result in the wrong brake bias curve, which a proportioning valve can't fix.
    I'll stick with GT pieces then. Should be less expensive to boot.




    In 1983, with the 2.3l as the reference:

    The 2.3lT engine with T5 added 37.6lbs in front and 3.6lbs rear.
    The 5.0l engine with Auto added 82.5lbs in front and 18.1lbs rear.

    1985 GT

    Front 1,809lbs
    Rear 1,320lbs

    1985 SVO

    Front 1,761lbs
    Rear 1,489lbs


    The 1985 GT versus SVO case clouds things up since there are many differences between the two cars aside from the engines. The SVO has heavier FCAs, spindles, front rotors, front calipers, rear rotors, rear calipers, axles, wing, etc.
    The bold part confuses me. According to those numbers, an '85 GT weighs 3129 lbs and the SVO is 3250 lbs?

  7. #357

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    Mike,

    The Ford SN95 FCAs are 1.23" longer than the Ford Fox FCAs. The pivot axis of the FCAs is not parallel to the centerline of the car, therefore you need to correct for this to find the actual affect on wheel position that the FCA has. The correction factor is 0.962. This also assumes the worst case situation where the FCA is level. If the FCA is not level, then the affect on wheel position will be less.

    I've seen a lot of people weld the ball joint.

    PBR made all three of the different calipers that I listed. They are all dual piston models made of aluminum. The 1994-98 single piston calipers are not made by PBR and are steel.

    The backside of the flange that is welded onto the axle tube is not machined. Unless you have a really big lathe, that will be hard to machine

    The SVO weight number for the rear does look wrong. Here are the numbers for all three years.

    1984 SVO 1985 SVO 1986 SVO

    Front 1,731lbs 1,761lbs 1,756lbs
    Rear 1,261lbs 1,489lbs 1,384lbs

    Given that not much changed in the front of the car over this time period, I suspect that the front numbers are correct. In 1985.5 the exhaust went to one with dual mufflers, so I know the rear weight increased. The 1985 rear number does look much too high especially since it differs from the shipping weight by 125lbs, whereas the others differ by 30-40lbs.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  8. #358

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    I have just completed my swap! Ranger rotors were a complete success for me. 1985 mustang gt 5.0 5 speed. So 1985 ranger rotors, stock mustang bearings and seal. All you need to get besides the rotors is the ranger dust caps!

  9. #359
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    Moved to new post.
    Last edited by Tim@DBF; 10-30-2012 at 10:52 AM.

  10. #360
    New User runnerg's Avatar
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    Default Nut sizefor spindles

    Hey fellas, I've read this entire feature and decided to go with the 5lug upgradeMy question is probably academic, but I was looking for info on the nuts and bolts that are attached on the spindle from the tie rod and main.Is it the same size for an '00 spindle? The reason I'm asking is that I don't want to handlug every wrench known to man through the salvage yard, plus the parts...

  11. #361

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    Quote Originally Posted by psrumors View Post
    I am about to undertake all of this and had a question on the rear.

    I bought the '94 - '95 hard lines along with Maximum Motorsports' stainless hose kit. Of course all of this moves the Brake Y on the axle to the left top of the pumkin.

    With my '84 the body hard line is on the right subframe.

    What is everyone doing for this fix? Do I need to replace the body hardline with a '87 - '93 hard line or is there something a little more simple?
    did you ever find a solution? I read the thread and your the only person I have seen mention this. I swapped a 94 axle under my capri and ran into the same problem.

    i'm planning on using the 94 control arms on my 84 k member, but getting the ranger axles for the rear (the 18"saleens don't quite fit under the fenders in the back)
    I used to have superhuman powers, but my therapist took them all away.

    84 mercury capri gs, 3.8 to 5.0 swap, weiand intake, edelbrock 600, longtube headers, c4 then an aod then another c4, 3.73 geared 8.8 with worn clutches, gt sway bars, boxed control arms.

    spare engine and doug nash 4+1 waiting to go in. A4 based supercharged 306 in the near future...

  12. #362
    Mike Croke
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    Some follow up on my conversion.

    I have a starter box from Maximum Motorsports so I began mocking up the front suspension to see what ends up where. One of the unknowns has been whether to use the Fox arms or the SN95 arms. The passenger side is assembled with the SN95 arm and the driver's side is with the Fox arm. Both sides have '94-'95 spindles, MM springs, Bilstein struts, and '94-'97 Cobra wheels.










    The SN95 arms will obviously not work with these wheels. It is possible with wheels with more back spacing, the SN95 arms can be usable but we already have these wheels and they look great on this Capri.

    I can take more pictures if anyone needs a better angle.

  13. #363

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    With a proper amount of camber in the alignment (-1.5 degrees) and the fender lip rolled, I think the SN95 FCA will fit fine. It appears that both sides of the car have positive camber currently.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  14. #364
    Mike Croke
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    Jack,

    I do not have the caster camber plates installed yet because I didn't think they would make much difference regarding where the spindle ended up. Also, there are no brakes and rotors installed so the wheels will still move another 1/4" (?) outwards. I haven't decided what brake parts to go with yet although I did get a master cylinder, adapter kit and plug from MM (BMC-3, MMBAK-17, MM-2450-A).

    The driver's side with the Fox arm certainly has positive camber as it sits. The passenger side with the SN95 is pretty close to vertical. What will the front tire wear be like with sufficient camber to clear the fender?

  15. #365
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    The sn95 fca's you guys are referring to are 94-98 correct? I believe the 99-04 are another .5 inches longer yet.
    Neal

  16. #366
    Mike Croke
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    I believe all '94-'04 front control arms are the same length. However, '99-'04 spindles push the wheels outwards about 1/4" more per side than '94-'98 spindles.

    In the rear, '94-'98 axle housings are the same as the '79-'93 housings. The axle shafts of '94-'98 are longer than Fox axle shafts. The axle housings of '99-'04 are wider than the '79-'98 housings and the axle shafts are even longer than the '94-'98 shafts.

  17. #367

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    All Ford SN95 FCAs have the same suspension geometry.

    Mike,

    For every degree of negative camber added, the top of the tire will move inwards about 0.31".

    If you corner slightly aggressive, you will have completely flat tire wear with -1.5 degrees of camber.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  18. #368

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    i did a non sn95 brake conversion awile back on my 86 coupe and found that the hard lines on the inner fender were not the same as the hard lines on my 88 gt that i took the spindles and calipers off of, i had to have a couple hoses made at the local parts store. has anybody else ran into that?

  19. #369
    FEP Power Member CapriGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bottlefed65 View Post
    i did a non sn95 brake conversion awile back on my 86 coupe and found that the hard lines on the inner fender were not the same as the hard lines on my 88 gt that i took the spindles and calipers off of, i had to have a couple hoses made at the local parts store. has anybody else ran into that?
    I think everyone who has switched ran into this. Most people use an adapter.
    1980 Capri
    5.0 EFI Mass Air, Rebuilt T5, Centerforce Dual Friction, B&M Ripper Shifter, Aluminum Driveshaft, 5 Lug 8.8, Cobra Brakes, Maximum Motorsports HD Lower Control Arms 94GT Spindles, 94 Front Control Arms, B Springs, Tokico Shocks & Struts, MM Camber Plates

  20. #370

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    Ok, I have a side question. What Sway bar did you use with the 94-98 control arms? Stock or SN95?
    A wise man said "Post counts don't mean a thing if you don't know what you're talking about".

    PAST 1986 Mustang GT, 1996 Mustang GT
    PRESENT 1984 Mustang GT "FANTASy" 1976 F100 Stepside FE390

  21. #371
    Mike Croke
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    More pics for reference while I'm going through this swap on our '84 Turbo RS.

    The axle assembly on the left is the '94-'98 8.8" SN95 with 275/40/17 Nitto drag radials mounted to stock '94-'95 Cobra wheels. The axle on the right is the 7.5" Fox with 10 holes and 235/60/15 BFG drag radials. Yes, those BFGs are pretty spent.

    Name:  fox_sn95_axles.jpg
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  22. #372
    FoxFleet
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    I have read through the whole thread and am still unsure on 97gt front end set ups in early fox (mines an 82). I have already bought 97 spindles/brakes/control arms. Will these drop right in? Should i use fox control arms with these spindles/brakes?

  23. #373
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  24. #374
    FoxFleet
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    after reading previous post ive decided to look for sn94/95 spindles and brakes. is it more beneficial to keep the fox control arms or should I make sure the spindles come with matching control arms?

  25. #375

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    I think the easiest approach is to use 95-95 spindles with your stock control arm and have new bushings and a ford sn95 ball joint pressed in.. done. Go for Cobra spec brakes as you get the larger 13' rotor and dual piston calipers. If you find a sn95 gt rear there is a ford upgrade kit for the cobra rotors and caliper mounting flange available to keep everything matched up. If you are going to bother tearing it all down to upgrade to 5 lug you my as well get the full benefit of the cobra sized brakes over the gt specs as it is all easy to source these days.

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