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Thread: Carb size?

  1. #1
    FEP Power Member richpet's Avatar
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    Default Carb size? And now trying to tune/troubleshoot it...

    Howdy all! I'm sure this has been addressed, but...

    Building a 347 (details in Race/Dyno section) and going back to a carb from a TBI system for simplicity and less wires.

    Was thinking of either a 670 Holley Street Avenger, the Demon street 625, QickFuel Brawler 650, or the Edelbrock AVS series 650.

    I used a 570 Holley on a previous build and liked it. Thoughts?
    Last edited by richpet; 06-01-2024 at 12:53 PM.
    83 5.0 GT. Quicker than it looks! 10:1 (or just over) 306, Motorsport a332 cam, 140A alt, t5 conv, 8.8 w/ 3.27's, Edel rpm, alum rad, very worked e7's, Holley SA carb, etc... SOLD IT!!!!

    Now an 1981 Granada! .040 over 302, Edel E-street heads... Currently building a 347 because, why not?

    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

  2. #2

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    I'd think any of those carbs would be fine. Ran a 670 on mine for quite awhile, ran well. Currently running a 750, personally think it runs better than the 670.
    Thomas

    1985 Mustang GT - Build Thread
    347 (Stock Block, Scat Crank & Rods, Probe Pistons, 11:1 CR, AFR 185's, PP Crosswind Intake, Custom-ground Comp Hyd Roller Cam, Scorpion 1.6 Roller Rockers, Holley 3310-4), T-5, 8.8 w/3.55's, MM SFC's, T/A, PHB, LCA's, Strut Tower Brace, K-Member Brace, Bilstein HD Struts/Shocks, MM/H&R Springs, SN95 5-Lug, ATS Brembo/Cobra Brakes, '04 Mach 1 Steering Rack

  3. #3
    FEP Power Member richpet's Avatar
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    I would have thought the 750 range too big, though it can be jetted down easily enough. You still get real good response at/off idle and such?
    83 5.0 GT. Quicker than it looks! 10:1 (or just over) 306, Motorsport a332 cam, 140A alt, t5 conv, 8.8 w/ 3.27's, Edel rpm, alum rad, very worked e7's, Holley SA carb, etc... SOLD IT!!!!

    Now an 1981 Granada! .040 over 302, Edel E-street heads... Currently building a 347 because, why not?

    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

  4. #4

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    I didn't notice much, if any difference. I did have to make accel pump adjustments to both carbs though. Oddly enough, the 670 liked a larger cam and nozzle than the 750 does.
    Thomas

    1985 Mustang GT - Build Thread
    347 (Stock Block, Scat Crank & Rods, Probe Pistons, 11:1 CR, AFR 185's, PP Crosswind Intake, Custom-ground Comp Hyd Roller Cam, Scorpion 1.6 Roller Rockers, Holley 3310-4), T-5, 8.8 w/3.55's, MM SFC's, T/A, PHB, LCA's, Strut Tower Brace, K-Member Brace, Bilstein HD Struts/Shocks, MM/H&R Springs, SN95 5-Lug, ATS Brembo/Cobra Brakes, '04 Mach 1 Steering Rack

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    FEP Power Member Broncojunkie's Avatar
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    I have a 750 ProForm on my 331 and have also ran a 650 Brawler on the same car/engine. Driveability is fine with both. I really didn't have to mess with jetting much at all. Well, I did but ended up going basically back to the stock jetting. I did change idle air bleeds on the 650, which seemed to cure a slight stumble at part throttle. I believe my next carb will be a Summit. I've heard good things about them.
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-m08750vs
    Last edited by Broncojunkie; 05-16-2024 at 03:52 PM.
    79 Pace Car - 331, t5
    79 Pace Car- 302, 4 spd
    79 Cobra - working on 351w, t5
    82 Capri- working on 302, t5
    82gt - working on 408w, c4

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    FEP Power Member richpet's Avatar
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    I have actually heard good things about them too. Maybe I will just go with the 750 or so cfm, maybe even the Summit brand.
    83 5.0 GT. Quicker than it looks! 10:1 (or just over) 306, Motorsport a332 cam, 140A alt, t5 conv, 8.8 w/ 3.27's, Edel rpm, alum rad, very worked e7's, Holley SA carb, etc... SOLD IT!!!!

    Now an 1981 Granada! .040 over 302, Edel E-street heads... Currently building a 347 because, why not?

    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

  7. #7

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    Richpet,
    Holley’s site as a Carb CFM chart on their site to help you pick what Carb size you will need.
    I am using a 570CFM street Avenger and it’s plenty of carb for my 302, which is basically stock except for 86-93 factory headers and cat back.
    There “might” be a difference in carb jets and power valves between a manual choke and Electric choke.
    I didn’t realize this until years later.
    You might want to check the specs to see if there is a difference between them on the 670.
    The street Avenger worked for me right out of the box. I run the manual choke model.
    Scott
    84 GT 5.0L, T5, 8.8T-Lock, 5lug with 93 Cobra Brakes,
    MM RCL's,CC plates, Koni Reds, 17" Tri-Stars...CoilOvers next.

  8. #8
    FEP Power Member richpet's Avatar
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    I used their 'chart' and it came in at the 650 range. I also used the 570 SA carb on my Mustang in my signature and liked it. I may go with the 670. Debating as the Street Demon 625 looks nice, etc. Sigh.
    83 5.0 GT. Quicker than it looks! 10:1 (or just over) 306, Motorsport a332 cam, 140A alt, t5 conv, 8.8 w/ 3.27's, Edel rpm, alum rad, very worked e7's, Holley SA carb, etc... SOLD IT!!!!

    Now an 1981 Granada! .040 over 302, Edel E-street heads... Currently building a 347 because, why not?

    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

  9. #9
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    A carb with annular boosters is a plus.
    Helps a large carb's drive ability in the low rpm band.
    Had a 585 Holley center pivot bowl carb on my 67's stock 289 2v manifold.
    Used a 2v adapter and the stock chrome lidded air cleaner. Drove fine looked awesome.
    A 780 would be interesting. 347 is almost a 351.

  10. #10
    FEP Power Member richpet's Avatar
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    I am getting a 625 street Demon today to use on the current motor. May use it to start up the 347 when that time comes, though by then I may have a bigger carb on the shelf.
    83 5.0 GT. Quicker than it looks! 10:1 (or just over) 306, Motorsport a332 cam, 140A alt, t5 conv, 8.8 w/ 3.27's, Edel rpm, alum rad, very worked e7's, Holley SA carb, etc... SOLD IT!!!!

    Now an 1981 Granada! .040 over 302, Edel E-street heads... Currently building a 347 because, why not?

    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

  11. #11
    FEP Power Member richpet's Avatar
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    Got the Demon on. Everything I read said they were rich out of the box and those were folks with larger motors. So I dropped one size from factory both primary and secondary, and I also put the next step larger (leaner) metering rods in.

    Idles great and feels more responsive and faster responding to throttle inputs - but I didn't do a lot of tuning/adjusting of FiTech parameters.

    Test drove today. Think I am lean as it sounds sputtery at very light throttle openings, but good with more throttle input. Gonna read the spark plugs when it cools down later today.

    So I called Holley tech.

    Going to reinstall the stock/smaller metering rod and re-test drive. Apparently a little is always going by the metering rods so going to start with that. Might even jump two sizes. The tech thinks the metering rod alone should do the trick. If not, I will bump the primary jets back to factory. Hoping the rods do it as the jets are on the bottom of the carb.
    Last edited by richpet; 05-30-2024 at 03:02 PM.
    83 5.0 GT. Quicker than it looks! 10:1 (or just over) 306, Motorsport a332 cam, 140A alt, t5 conv, 8.8 w/ 3.27's, Edel rpm, alum rad, very worked e7's, Holley SA carb, etc... SOLD IT!!!!

    Now an 1981 Granada! .040 over 302, Edel E-street heads... Currently building a 347 because, why not?

    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

  12. #12
    FEP Power Member richpet's Avatar
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    Update:

    Bumped the metering rods two sizes so they are now one size smaller (richer on both steps) than factory and left the one size under factory jets in. Who wants to pull a carb full of fuel off if it isn't necessary, right?

    Test drove.

    Seemed to run real good! I got it warm and then hit some level ground at a constant speed and I did not notice any missing or sputtering at all.

    Tomorrow we are taking the car to a picnic up at Odell lake, so I will go from 800' elevation to close to 6000' feet over the Willamette pass, the lake is north of 4000' feet I believe on the other/East side. If anything the altitude should richen the mixture a bit.

    As I knew I was lean earlier today I did not pull any plugs. I think we will take this drive tomorrow, I will spend some time driving it 'normally', and then take a look at the plugs next week or so. As long as I do not notice/hear any sputtering/preignition/etc. in the meantime.
    Last edited by richpet; 05-30-2024 at 05:38 PM.
    83 5.0 GT. Quicker than it looks! 10:1 (or just over) 306, Motorsport a332 cam, 140A alt, t5 conv, 8.8 w/ 3.27's, Edel rpm, alum rad, very worked e7's, Holley SA carb, etc... SOLD IT!!!!

    Now an 1981 Granada! .040 over 302, Edel E-street heads... Currently building a 347 because, why not?

    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

  13. #13
    FEP Power Member richpet's Avatar
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    Yet another update (not sure if anyone is interested, but meh. Lol.)

    Once it fully warmed up there was a little sputter/miss, though it was a lot less pronounced, but went home and switched cars anyway just to be safe. So today, off came the carb, stock/factory main jets put back in, dropped the metering rod back one to stock size. Left secondaries one step leaned out. My thoughts are it SHOULD be good to go now. The motor will probably never need the fuel provided by the stock/factory secondaries so I can fine tune with the metering rods (I have the tuning kit which provides something like 3 steps richer than the stock, give or take). Worst case is I will pull the carb again and swap the secondaries. Took me an hour or so to do all the work, so not bad.

    I also noticed the guy I bought it from had the choke rod hooked up incorrectly. I was looking at the angle in which it enters the choke housing and it looked wrong. Found a pic in the manual and sure enough, it appears it should be on the bottom, which makes it line up with the choke housing opening much more linearly. I test started the car and it was fine. This might help explain why yesterday it seemed fine if the choke was not operating fully as it should.

    The real test will be a level ground test drive at full operating temp. Tomorrow?
    Last edited by richpet; 05-31-2024 at 08:05 PM.
    83 5.0 GT. Quicker than it looks! 10:1 (or just over) 306, Motorsport a332 cam, 140A alt, t5 conv, 8.8 w/ 3.27's, Edel rpm, alum rad, very worked e7's, Holley SA carb, etc... SOLD IT!!!!

    Now an 1981 Granada! .040 over 302, Edel E-street heads... Currently building a 347 because, why not?

    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

  14. #14

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    I'm still following along. Glad to hear you're having some success.
    Thomas

    1985 Mustang GT - Build Thread
    347 (Stock Block, Scat Crank & Rods, Probe Pistons, 11:1 CR, AFR 185's, PP Crosswind Intake, Custom-ground Comp Hyd Roller Cam, Scorpion 1.6 Roller Rockers, Holley 3310-4), T-5, 8.8 w/3.55's, MM SFC's, T/A, PHB, LCA's, Strut Tower Brace, K-Member Brace, Bilstein HD Struts/Shocks, MM/H&R Springs, SN95 5-Lug, ATS Brembo/Cobra Brakes, '04 Mach 1 Steering Rack

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    FEP Power Member richpet's Avatar
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    Glad to hear it!
    But, ...
    Test drive was better, still just a hint of the sputter (it sounds like a gentle 'whoop' or 'pop' from the exhaust, like a bunch of bubbles in the sink and one softly pops once ina while?) and I could smell gas, especially when I got on it.
    I have yet to pull any plugs (shoulda sooner) so that IS next. If I am rich I am wondering if the either 1- the floats are set a bit too high or 2- the needle isn't fully seating. Having the carb essentially back to stock (minus the secondaries, and it smelled rich when those engaged) makes it hard to believe I am overall lean on a motor this size.
    So, plugs get checked next. Period. Any sign of a rich burn means the carb comes off again and gets a total go through. I suppose one hazard of buying a used part, even one slightly used, is that the previous owner MAY not be 100% honest about what they did or how.
    Pretty confident I will get it figured though.

    Well, at least that isn't frustrating.... not.
    I pulled four plugs, two front driver, two rear passenger (5,6,3,4). Corners were black, middles were white. I know the SBF has not the best ever fuel distribution, but really? Well, it is an Edelbrock Performer. IIRC this is similar to what I had the FI system on, in fact at one point I considered running two different heat ranges of plugs - corners and middles.

    So - thinking 8 new plugs, drive, read them. Then the effects on them are only carb related.

    The distribution of fuel/air wont change really going to a different system - but the plugs will not be what they were so I can attribute everything to the carb soon. I think I will plan to do a FULL carb check and refresh regardless - needles/seats/float level, new gaskets.
    Last edited by richpet; 06-01-2024 at 09:19 PM.
    83 5.0 GT. Quicker than it looks! 10:1 (or just over) 306, Motorsport a332 cam, 140A alt, t5 conv, 8.8 w/ 3.27's, Edel rpm, alum rad, very worked e7's, Holley SA carb, etc... SOLD IT!!!!

    Now an 1981 Granada! .040 over 302, Edel E-street heads... Currently building a 347 because, why not?

    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

  16. #16
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    Sounds like you're making progress!
    '85 GT

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    FEP Power Member richpet's Avatar
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    Slowly. Lol. Better than none.

    Part of me just thinks fuel distribution is poor with that intake - not sure what else would cause such different situations at the cylinders. But, I really have no desire to pull/swap the intake. The car has seemed to run fine this way for 14k, and I have a new motor on the stand not far from complete, but I want to install it when I do the major re-work of the car, not now (for a variety of reasons). That one has the Weiand Stealth intake.

    I have seen comments from previous Street Demon owners that said they idled and ran WOT great, but suffered in the mid-range/cruise areas. Perhaps I am close to the best it will be with this particular combination.

    I am going to inspect the needles/seats as well as check the float level measurement as best I can. I may also just play with the heat range of the plugs being used to see if I can balance it out a bit on that end. A wide-band O2 will only tell me the average in the exhaust, not if it is varying cylinder to cylinder so do not see that as a worthwhile effort, and I am confident I am not running too lean as I can smell fuel at times of heavier demand. I may also put the accelerator pump on one notch less aggressive a setting.

    One change at a time. Or so.
    Last edited by richpet; 06-03-2024 at 01:43 PM.
    83 5.0 GT. Quicker than it looks! 10:1 (or just over) 306, Motorsport a332 cam, 140A alt, t5 conv, 8.8 w/ 3.27's, Edel rpm, alum rad, very worked e7's, Holley SA carb, etc... SOLD IT!!!!

    Now an 1981 Granada! .040 over 302, Edel E-street heads... Currently building a 347 because, why not?

    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

  18. #18
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Can use an IR temp gun to check exhaust temp at the header by the cylinders. Handy useful tool for car and house.
    I would wonder whether to use only hotter plugs in the corners or only colder plugs in the middle.
    Colder middle plugs then may blacken to match corners. Then dial carb down? Dunno.
    Hard to guess without many more tuning measurements like on a dyno.
    Having a/f sensors tapped in on all cyl.
    Colder than stock plug heat range is commonly used on hp engines.
    Mustang here is a 2.3T. AWSF 32 copper is stock. Have run AWSF 24s no real noticeable power change.
    They run tan colored. Turbo carbs are calibrated rich. Spinning turbo mixes fuel and air good after carb.
    Now the Ranger i have is a 93 dual plug 2.3. Stock is also 32 heat range. Uses platinum type.

    I think if engine is too rich, power just blahs out flat, where if lean it misfires, pops, hesitates, bogs.
    Ignition timing, gearing, can be factors too. Dialing in the build. Can take years.
    Friends 70 440/6 'Cuda popped top end after mods. Fixed it. Did not say how. Car was a real gas hog.
    I believe if lucky a well tuned hp engine should not suck up a lot of fuel when cruising. Crisp throttle response.
    Would be cool to have a V8 that can hit high 20's driving easy and still smoke the tires.
    Last edited by gr79; 06-03-2024 at 02:00 PM.

  19. #19
    FEP Power Member richpet's Avatar
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    Oh ho! Found something interesting!

    Attachment 138785

    1- I didn't put 3924 plugs in. They were 3926 so were two heat ranges hotter than 'normal' for AL heads! Going to drop to 3924 for the middle 4, and 3928 for the corners.
    2- #8 plug looks oil/carbon nasty

    I plan to pull the valve cover off and inspect the rockers - maybe one of them has loosened up so the valves are not operating properly.Attachment 138784

    I did pull the VC - the rockers look normal, but tomorrow I plan to rotate the motor to check the actual rocker to valve clearance.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by richpet; 06-04-2024 at 06:31 PM.
    83 5.0 GT. Quicker than it looks! 10:1 (or just over) 306, Motorsport a332 cam, 140A alt, t5 conv, 8.8 w/ 3.27's, Edel rpm, alum rad, very worked e7's, Holley SA carb, etc... SOLD IT!!!!

    Now an 1981 Granada! .040 over 302, Edel E-street heads... Currently building a 347 because, why not?

    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

  20. #20
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    If you plan to spin your 347 past 6000 you need more than 650

    I run a 750 on my 331 when Im looking for all the power

    I run a 650 AVS2 when Im cruising it and just enjoying it

    sub 400 cubes with rpm makes for lots of interesting challenges to solve across the rev range

  21. #21
    FEP Power Member richpet's Avatar
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    True that and I greatly appreciate that input! I plan to spin up to 6000, probably not past it, though I have decided on either the 670 Street Avenger or similar.

    As for my surprise plug issue, this morning I will check that the rockers/valves look to be operating correctly (I took the VC off yesterday, but ran out of time to actually turn it over by hand and watch them, check the adj of the roller rockers, etc), but I have a sneaking hunch the head came from Edelbrock with either or both valve seals leaking on that cylinder. So for now I will plan to replace that plug every few thousand miles until I feel like parking it and replacing those two seals. Well, reality is it will only be a few thousand anyway.

    Also, all 8 were the Autolite 3926. Rather than go two ranges different from there the middles (2,3,6,7) will get one range cooler (to 3925).
    The corners (1,4,5, will get one range hotter (to 3927).

    Hopefully the Stealth distributes better than this little Edy intake on the new/next motor.

    Rockers and their adjustment/actions look good.

    Have a strong feeling it is valve seals.
    Last edited by richpet; 06-05-2024 at 04:42 PM.
    83 5.0 GT. Quicker than it looks! 10:1 (or just over) 306, Motorsport a332 cam, 140A alt, t5 conv, 8.8 w/ 3.27's, Edel rpm, alum rad, very worked e7's, Holley SA carb, etc... SOLD IT!!!!

    Now an 1981 Granada! .040 over 302, Edel E-street heads... Currently building a 347 because, why not?

    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

  22. #22
    FEP Power Member richpet's Avatar
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    So, all looks great!

    Stock main jets, one size smaller secondary jets. Stock metering rod with one step softer spring (so it stays off the richer rod-step until there is less vacuum, more throttle input).

    New plugs. Recommended (3924) in middles, two ranges hotter in corners. Will check them after driving a while.

    Ran great today! I will have to mess with the valve seals on #8 it appears, and I need to adjust the added throttle return spring a bit.
    83 5.0 GT. Quicker than it looks! 10:1 (or just over) 306, Motorsport a332 cam, 140A alt, t5 conv, 8.8 w/ 3.27's, Edel rpm, alum rad, very worked e7's, Holley SA carb, etc... SOLD IT!!!!

    Now an 1981 Granada! .040 over 302, Edel E-street heads... Currently building a 347 because, why not?

    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

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