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  1. #1
    FEP User Fast_4_Eye's Avatar
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    Question Supporting Mods for a Top End Kit

    Hello everyone!

    This morning my dad and I had taken a short road trip and finally brought the fox on the highway! Very nice drive and much more comfortable than what I expected, the MM lower steering shaft made it feel like a brand new car with no shaking lol.

    Anyways, we had went early this morning to a speed shop about an hour out and had inquired about them doing work on my car. I know many of the forum members here prefer to work on their own car, however, my dad and I both are not very confident in our abilities in tearing down a short block and decided it would be smart to leave to some professionals.

    While we were there, we had asked about doing a Trick Flow top end kit and what would be needed to make it work, cost of parts, labour, time, etc. He had told us that my Ford MAF conversion kit and GT40 would be "ok" for the kit but we would need all sorts of other things like 24/48# injectors and fuel pump etc.

    For the most part this all made sense as making more power needs more fuel and more air and so on. What I didn't quite understand was he said we would have to purchase a larger radiator, something about a 2 core. I am not familiar with radiator terminology so I really don't know what that would mean in terms of cost and whatnot. He then started talking about replacing the clutch with a '93 Cobra clutch. Keep in mind I had mentioned many times that the car only has 28,xxx kms on it and everything is in practically mint condition.

    So now, I am asking the FEP community, was this guy just trying to tack on items to bring the bill up? I had told him I am on a pretty tight budget being a high school student with a part time job and to keep the cost as low as possible. I don't want to be skeptical of it but I had never heard about having to upgrade radiators and clutches for merely +150 crank hp.

    Thanks all in advance,
    Daniel

  2. #2
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Simple answer is the clutch and radiator upgrades are insurance against issues that may or may not be occur. Depending on what radiator and the current condition of said radiator in the vehicle upgrading to a 2 or 3 row radiator is good insurance. Generally HP creates heat. More HP equals more heat, more rows in a radiator in general cool better to help keep the HP under control. Upgrading to a Mishimoto, Ron Davis, etc. aluminum radiator is a common upgrade and in most cases helps to prevent future issues. Simple way to look at radiators is the core is made up of rows of tubes. The size of the tube and the number of rows will determine how much cooling occurs. Generally the more rows the better the cooling capacity. That is the simplistic version as the tube size, number of rows, flow direction, overall radiator size, and many other factors determine how efficient the cooling is, but that will get you started.

    The stock clutch is not designed for the added HP of a GT40 intake, injectors, heads, etc. So you can leave the OEM clutch in place, just understand you will most likely wear it out quicker and need to replace at a later date. Not a huge issue as long as you plan ahead and understand. If you were going to pull the engine for the upgrades, then I would recommend doing the clutch replacement now since you will already have access to the clutch. If you are only doing the top end, then the clutch upgrade can wait if funds don't allow, just know that depending on how you drive and if you are doing clutch dumps at a drag strip or even on the street you will be in need of a clutch in short order.

    I assume your GT is an 86 since you are talking about a GT40 intake, keep in mind that you will want to verify piston to valve clearance since the 86 engine has flat top pistons with no valve reliefs. Depending on heads and camshaft used will determine if you have to fly cut the pistons for clearance.
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Stalled RestoModification
    1984 SVO Still Waiting Restoration
    1986 GT Under going Wide Body Conversion Currently

    Current Capris:
    1981 Capri Roller
    1981 Capri Black Magic Roller Basket Case
    1982 Capri RS 5.0/4spd T-top Full Restoration Stalled in TX
    1984 Capri RS T-top Roller
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts

  3. #3
    FEP User Fast_4_Eye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wraithracing View Post
    Simple answer is the clutch and radiator upgrades are insurance against issues that may or may not be occur. Depending on what radiator and the current condition of said radiator in the vehicle upgrading to a 2 or 3 row radiator is good insurance. Generally HP creates heat. More HP equals more heat, more rows in a radiator in general cool better to help keep the HP under control. Upgrading to a Mishimoto, Ron Davis, etc. aluminum radiator is a common upgrade and in most cases helps to prevent future issues. Simple way to look at radiators is the core is made up of rows of tubes. The size of the tube and the number of rows will determine how much cooling occurs. Generally the more rows the better the cooling capacity. That is the simplistic version as the tube size, number of rows, flow direction, overall radiator size, and many other factors determine how efficient the cooling is, but that will get you started.

    The stock clutch is not designed for the added HP of a GT40 intake, injectors, heads, etc. So you can leave the OEM clutch in place, just understand you will most likely wear it out quicker and need to replace at a later date. Not a huge issue as long as you plan ahead and understand. If you were going to pull the engine for the upgrades, then I would recommend doing the clutch replacement now since you will already have access to the clutch. If you are only doing the top end, then the clutch upgrade can wait if funds don't allow, just know that depending on how you drive and if you are doing clutch dumps at a drag strip or even on the street you will be in need of a clutch in short order.

    I assume your GT is an 86 since you are talking about a GT40 intake, keep in mind that you will want to verify piston to valve clearance since the 86 engine has flat top pistons with no valve reliefs. Depending on heads and camshaft used will determine if you have to fly cut the pistons for clearance.
    Thank you very much for the quick reply. I will definitely not be doing any clutch dumps any time soon as I don't even have a full license lol. I always have to be with my mom or dad even though my mom hates the car :'(

    And in that case if the radiator is a good idea, then I don't mind saving for another month or so, just might off put how long it takes to get the car in and out. And lastly, what type of clutch would you recommend. It is going to be my daily driver and to be completely honest, I was just looking for a way to quicken the car a bit as I had gotten used to driving my dad's 2020 GT and wanted my car to feel somewhat similar, I know they are two completely different cars with different technology but rest assured, I have lots of respect for my vehicle when I drive it and do not put anyone including myself in harms way.

    I guess the overall point of this post was just to see if this guy at the shop I was talking to really knew his stuff or was hurting from the pandemic going on and wanted to inflate the bill a little more. He had also mentioned that the 86 had the best engine for this sort of thing as the flat tops are forged compared to a 87+ motor. I don't know quite what that means power wise or drivability but he said the kid would work without fly cutting as he had put many TFS top ends on his numerous '86s.

    Last thing, yes my car is an '86 GT or "Cobra" as it is a Canadian car and I had read something about a legal case between Ford and Shelby which lead to Ford naming one of their vehicles a Cobra to keep the rights to the name, pretty cool I guess. I don't know if that would change anything or if it is the same driveline as an American car.

    I really appreciate all the help I can get on here. It has been decades since my dad had his last fox so he isn't really up to speed with the latest and greatest for these cars so him and I are equally as lost when it comes to upgrades and what is worth it for the money.

    Thanks again for the reply

    Edit: I drive pretty tame on the street, shifting at 3k or so and going speed limit for the most part, mostly because I want to keep my learners lmao. I'm not sure if that affects anything as far as clutches go but all I have heard is that clutches are separated into bite strength and longevity and you can't really have too much of one without losing the other. It's a daily and I will most likely never race this car as it is just so straight and so clean.
    Last edited by Fast_4_Eye; 11-06-2021 at 03:56 PM.

  4. #4

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    Thats a nice piece that you have. 28000kms! Wow! as you are on a budget(still in school) have you thought about a rear gear change? Would give you some set of the pants fun!
    I am 2 hrs from you. There are some Reputable shops within 1-2 hrs from you.
    1-Wagdy at WK Performance
    2-Joe at DaSilva Racing
    3-Paul at PSP Performance
    4- Beatty and Woods Performance
    Hope this helps you! Good Luck

  5. #5
    FEP User Fast_4_Eye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by machinedoc View Post
    Thats a nice piece that you have. 28000kms! Wow! as you are on a budget(still in school) have you thought about a rear gear change? Would give you some set of the pants fun!
    I am 2 hrs from you. There are some Reputable shops within 1-2 hrs from you.
    1-Wagdy at WK Performance
    2-Joe at DaSilva Racing
    3-Paul at PSP Performance
    4- Beatty and Woods Performance
    Hope this helps you! Good Luck
    I've actually already put some 3.55s in the rear as the 3.55s in the car when I had bought it whined a lot. They were by a company called Strange which my dad had said were pretty big back in the day. Whoever had installed them however, I'm thinking a DIY job from previous owner, they would whine terribly on the deceleration, like ear piercing. So we had bought some Ford Performance and had our local Ford dealer install them as we know him quite well and have purchased many vehicles through them. I was actually at DaSilva and they were super nice there. Joe and Matt were super informative and made sure to tell me how nice of a car I managed to get and that I better take care of it lol

    I had no idea that the owner before me really put a lot of thought into the parts and luckily has paved the way for me to make more power for less money lol. I already got the GT-40 and Ford Motorsport MAF sensor and welded Subframe Connectors so I really only need the top end kit and these possible supporting mods and then I will be satisfied. For now.... . One day maybe I can get my hands on one of those Kenne Bell Blowzillas and a TKX for an ultimate street build.

    Thanks for the suggestions, I hope I can get my work done by Joe if it doesn't end up eating my school savings, but then again who needs an education when you have a fox.

  6. #6
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Unfortunately it's going to take a nice chunk of cash to make your 86 run like your Dad's 2020 GT. Not that you can't improve upon the current power output and still have a blast with the 86. Most of what you stated from the shop sounds ok. Fairly standard upgrades and improvements. The TFS heads are excellent and do offer benefits with the 86 flat tops compared to standard inline valve heads. If you are not adding a camshaft then, it's not really a factor, but not adding a cam you are most likely leaving HP on the table. In regards to pistons the gentleman is incorrect. Ford offered the forged pistons in the Mustang from 1985 to 1992 when they switched to Hypereutectic pistons. The 86 are stand alone due to the flat top no relief design. Forged pistons are generally stronger than cast or hypereutectic and are often and upgrade made when rebuilding an engine.

    As for the Cobra name plate, you pretty much covered most of it. My understanding is there's no real difference between your 86 Cobra and the US 86 GT model. The GT 40 intake is an excellent option, although there are plenty of options such as the TFS Track Heat and most likely could be less $$ than a true GT 40 intake. The Explorer GT40 style intake is another option, just know there are two types one with EGR and one without depending on your needs. In regards to clutch you pretty much want a stock or slight upgrade over a stock style clutch. Centerforce and Spec are my go to manufacturers in that regard. Centerforce has several options that keep the stock pedal feel, but improve performance. Most likely a Spec Stage One or at most a Stage 2 clutch will do all you need. Mcleod, Hayes, and Ram or other good options for a Mustang. The "Cobra" clutch kit was a good option for many years, but I know there was a quality issue for a bit, not sure if that has been fixed or not, but I haven't bought one in years.

    As mentioned by the post above a rear gear change can also really wake up the Fox model Mustangs. I personally don't like anything bigger than a 3.55 rear gear ratio with the 5 speed as IMHO it makes first gear almost unusable when get any larger. The AOD cars generally prefer the 3.73 rear gear for best performance. Depending on what your current rear gear ratio is will help to decide how much of a improvement you will see. Good Luck!
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Stalled RestoModification
    1984 SVO Still Waiting Restoration
    1986 GT Under going Wide Body Conversion Currently

    Current Capris:
    1981 Capri Roller
    1981 Capri Black Magic Roller Basket Case
    1982 Capri RS 5.0/4spd T-top Full Restoration Stalled in TX
    1984 Capri RS T-top Roller
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts

  7. #7
    FEP User Fast_4_Eye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wraithracing View Post
    Unfortunately it's going to take a nice chunk of cash to make your 86 run like your Dad's 2020 GT. Not that you can't improve upon the current power output and still have a blast with the 86. Most of what you stated from the shop sounds ok. Fairly standard upgrades and improvements. The TFS heads are excellent and do offer benefits with the 86 flat tops compared to standard inline valve heads. If you are not adding a camshaft then, it's not really a factor, but not adding a cam you are most likely leaving HP on the table. In regards to pistons the gentleman is incorrect. Ford offered the forged pistons in the Mustang from 1985 to 1992 when they switched to Hypereutectic pistons. The 86 are stand alone due to the flat top no relief design. Forged pistons are generally stronger than cast or hypereutectic and are often and upgrade made when rebuilding an engine.

    As for the Cobra name plate, you pretty much covered most of it. My understanding is there's no real difference between your 86 Cobra and the US 86 GT model. The GT 40 intake is an excellent option, although there are plenty of options such as the TFS Track Heat and most likely could be less $$ than a true GT 40 intake. The Explorer GT40 style intake is another option, just know there are two types one with EGR and one without depending on your needs. In regards to clutch you pretty much want a stock or slight upgrade over a stock style clutch. Centerforce and Spec are my go to manufacturers in that regard. Centerforce has several options that keep the stock pedal feel, but improve performance. Most likely a Spec Stage One or at most a Stage 2 clutch will do all you need. Mcleod, Hayes, and Ram or other good options for a Mustang. The "Cobra" clutch kit was a good option for many years, but I know there was a quality issue for a bit, not sure if that has been fixed or not, but I haven't bought one in years.

    As mentioned by the post above a rear gear change can also really wake up the Fox model Mustangs. I personally don't like anything bigger than a 3.55 rear gear ratio with the 5 speed as IMHO it makes first gear almost unusable when get any larger. The AOD cars generally prefer the 3.73 rear gear for best performance. Depending on what your current rear gear ratio is will help to decide how much of a improvement you will see. Good Luck!
    Alright thank you very much for the info. So if what I'm gathering is correct, the GT-40 would be more than enough for a stock bottom end 302 with the TFS top end. I would like to keep it as I know they are coveted and I absolutely LOVE the look of them. Also my understanding is that the top end kit comes with a trick flow stage 1 or 2 cam, not sure exactly which but there is a cam. I know this is kind of off the main topic but I've seen guys that say like "built 306 blah blah blah". Does the 4cu really do anything? I don't really know which is why I'm asking but I feel like guys who have that done really like to emphasize it and I can't see the point if its like .1hp lol. The guy at DaSilva had sort of mentioned it, I just don't know if it's worth the dough.

    I have really tried to do my research with this because I want to be somewhat knowledgeable as to what's going on with my car since I won't be the one working on it. I really just want a fun street car for cruising around town and whatnot. Nothing crazy as I will admit, the stock 170hp has already gotten away from me a few times and I managed to keep it under control, I don't want to test that with 400 or 500 lmao. Any help with part recommendations really helps so thank you very much wraithracing for the help, I will look into the clutches and rad possibly, just again, I kind of want to keep this in the $6k CAD range and the TFS kit alone is $4k of that. I could sell the track heat intake to offset that a bit but I really don't know what those are going for if I'm being honest so it will be negligible.

    Any other part recommendations are welcomed and I appreciate all of the help, thank you so much guys!

  8. #8
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Not sure what you mean by 4cu, so I can't respond to that. If you are referring to 4 cubic inches from a 306 that's nothing more than an over bore of the 302 to 4.030 bore rather than stock 4.00. Does it add some power, sure, but not enough to worry about. If you engine is so low miles, then there probably no need to bore and spend the $$ on new pistons. That's added costs that will definitely blow your budget.

    The Track Heat is probably a bit better intake than the GT40, but I understand if you prefer the look of the GT40. Personally I would run the Track Heat, but your car, your choice. Track Heat intakes will often bring around $500 US, especially if new and unused.
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Stalled RestoModification
    1984 SVO Still Waiting Restoration
    1986 GT Under going Wide Body Conversion Currently

    Current Capris:
    1981 Capri Roller
    1981 Capri Black Magic Roller Basket Case
    1982 Capri RS 5.0/4spd T-top Full Restoration Stalled in TX
    1984 Capri RS T-top Roller
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts

  9. #9

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    Welcome to the rabbit hole! My dad would call it, "chasing the last part". It's going to depend on what you want out of it in the long run. I make a bit over 300 at the wheel and torque is large. I've repaired floor pan rips, installed frame connectors, stiffeners, and delved pretty deep into suspension upgrades as the car is 30 years old. It's all about what you want out of it I think. You're in good hands here. I'm no expert and a lot of what I've done has been under the guidance here and from others that know. Enjoy the journey!

  10. #10
    FEP User Fast_4_Eye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wraithracing View Post
    Not sure what you mean by 4cu, so I can't respond to that. If you are referring to 4 cubic inches from a 306 that's nothing more than an over bore of the 302 to 4.030 bore rather than stock 4.00. Does it add some power, sure, but not enough to worry about. If you engine is so low miles, then there probably no need to bore and spend the $$ on new pistons. That's added costs that will definitely blow your budget.

    The Track Heat is probably a bit better intake than the GT40, but I understand if you prefer the look of the GT40. Personally I would run the Track Heat, but your car, your choice. Track Heat intakes will often bring around $500 US, especially if new and unused.
    Yeah, I meant to type cui but only put cu, I figured guys only did that when they had lots of miles and needed a refresh. Also I figured I would keep the GT-40 for (a) the looks and (b) the difference in HP is about 5-10 from what I've been gathering which to me isn't all that important when in reality its just being driven about 5kms to school and another 5kms back, and I won't be racing it. I just want to keep it manageable as I know how easy it is to get away from me now so I could imagine with another say 100 horses it will be much harder to keep under control.

    Thank you for taking the time to help me hear lol, I really need it

  11. #11
    FEP User Fast_4_Eye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberu View Post
    Welcome to the rabbit hole! My dad would call it, "chasing the last part". It's going to depend on what you want out of it in the long run. I make a bit over 300 at the wheel and torque is large. I've repaired floor pan rips, installed frame connectors, stiffeners, and delved pretty deep into suspension upgrades as the car is 30 years old. It's all about what you want out of it I think. You're in good hands here. I'm no expert and a lot of what I've done has been under the guidance here and from others that know. Enjoy the journey!
    Yeah I'm very well aware of this "rabbit hole" effect lol. I know it will never end but I feel like the car will grow with my through my life, for right now with my limited driving and life experience I feel like the 270-ish whp is enough for my first car. Like I had mentioned, maybe one day I'll be able to afford one of those cool looking KB blowers but for now I think it's best that I just ease into the power to avoid anything bad happening.

    I had already purchased a stiffler's web bracing system, some people said they are useless, some people have said it worked wonders. I don't quite know who to believe but I was able to get them on sale so I had figured why not. I also have a BMR torque box suspension in the box in my garage and I was waiting until over the winter to install it with the rest of my suspension stuff. Lastly, I got an Eibach pro-line kit with the shocks, struts, springs and sway bars and I believe bushings also. My dad had mentioned getting some suspension stuff for Christmas so I'm not quite sure what that could be but I think it was a bump steer kit. I'm hoping that with all this suspension stuff, it will help the car better handle the new power it will be making and then I'll just drive it like this for a couple years until something else comes up to buy haha.

    Luckily my under side is all covered in an undercoat so I don't have any rust problems, yet... I know these cars are very prone to it so I'll just have to be careful!

  12. #12
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Just my $.02 in regards to a bump steer kit. They can be very beneficial and definitely improve the handling and safety of a lowered Mustang. The caveat is that you must actually measure the bump steer on the vehicle with the proper tools to adjust the bump steer correctly. If you are just going to install and hope for the best of use seat of the pants testing, you are better off just using the later model Aero tie rods that have a better design to limit bump steer. Again my experience and opinion, yours may vary.
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Stalled RestoModification
    1984 SVO Still Waiting Restoration
    1986 GT Under going Wide Body Conversion Currently

    Current Capris:
    1981 Capri Roller
    1981 Capri Black Magic Roller Basket Case
    1982 Capri RS 5.0/4spd T-top Full Restoration Stalled in TX
    1984 Capri RS T-top Roller
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts

  13. #13
    FEP User Fast_4_Eye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wraithracing View Post
    Just my $.02 in regards to a bump steer kit. They can be very beneficial and definitely improve the handling and safety of a lowered Mustang. The caveat is that you must actually measure the bump steer on the vehicle with the proper tools to adjust the bump steer correctly. If you are just going to install and hope for the best of use seat of the pants testing, you are better off just using the later model Aero tie rods that have a better design to limit bump steer. Again my experience and opinion, yours may vary.
    I had heard of guys using aero tie rods and wasn't sure about compatibility and I know my dad is hesitant with getting used parts or parts that don't specifically say **1986 Mustang GT** and I believe he had already purchased the parts anyways so its not really a big deal I guess, I was going to have a local alignment shop do them as I really don't want to be a front page news story of some 16 year old going off of a country road lol

    My limited understanding is just that bump steer is when the suspension compresses it basically changes the toe setting causing instability so to make it as perfect as possible I think I'm just going to leave that to a pro haha. I don't know if this is related but I've seen a forum or two about some guys saying they use SN95 tie rods but I thought that was odd because I had thought that they were longer than a fox tie rod. It will have to be something I look into.

    Thanks

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