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  1. #1
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Default is this a bad valve stem seal?

    Any opinions, thoughts, comments, tips, criticism, guesses are greatly appreciated.
    Will follow up on result.

    Carb turbo 2.3 engine recently suddenly burning way too much oil, very visible smoke on accel.
    Dipstick level checks after 50 miles since June confirm it is an oil problem.
    Have read up and refreshed knowledge on diagnosis and repair. In this case, more is better.
    Turbocharger and its oil feed have been disabled and eliminated as source of oil problem.

    Idle steady idle vac steady 18-20.
    Engine power normal, no noises. Compression 180-190 all cyl. Plugs not wet.
    Coolant normal temp and level.
    Cannot detect any oil in intake, pcv, vac lines.
    No leaks other than usual seeping from gaskets. No drips on ground.
    Engine otherwise appears to be sound, vg fuel econ and power even after 150k, rebuild by me. Not raced.
    Stock config engine, total rebuild in 2000 with durability, material updates, daily driving shared with Ranger.
    At this point, plan is to change out one valve stem seal in car successfully and DRIVE it.
    .
    Will be trusting air to hold valve up. Rope was considered. Compressor holds air for weeks. Max 125#, kicks on at 95#.
    Will have breaker bar and socket on crank to hold cam timing, crank at #3 TDC, verify with dist rotor position.
    Have correct air hold, valve spring tool, magnets, towels, rags. Aim for total control of and not losing the valve keepers.
    Have the stem cover in kit for valve stem tip and will lube it with drops of oil. Will seat seal per Ford shop manual.

    Never did this particular task before on car. Will be replacing with same type from 70373 Felpro set.
    Overcoming paranoia, anxiety, on dropping the valve is a challenge. Will use thick rubber band on stem.
    Goal is to avoid much more work pulling head or even replacing engine.
    Overthinking the situation can eat ya up. Taking time not to guess on anything, overlook details, overall procedure.
    Have repainted valve cover and cleaned the beautiful no leak Felpro blue PermaDry gasket to keep calm.
    Am working outside. Perfect weather here. Going for it.


    Have i found something?
    Is #3 exhaust, 2.3 engine.
    Looks like piece of valve stem seal rubber missing, exposing valve stem under bottom seal ret ring.
    All other seals look fine and seated far as i can see with digital inspection snake camera, inspection mirror, magnifying glass.

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    Name:  valve seal 3E 5050(4).JPG
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    Last edited by gr79; 09-08-2021 at 11:32 AM.

  2. #2
    FEP Senior Member gt4494's Avatar
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    Default

    Normally the first sign of a bad valve seal is a cloud of blue smoke on coldstart. The oil flows down the valve and sits on the top of it. When the car starts it drops into the cylinder and burns.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."
    Albert Einstein

    1984 20th Anniversary GT350
    Almost "Stock"

  3. #3
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    yes engine has been doing that for a while. Sit at traffic light, get the puff.
    2.3 carb turbo engines get 36k before smoke starts. First set was under Ford warranty.
    Normally use 1 qt/1000 but slowly got worse 500, 250, 100.
    Now can almost fog the mosquitos in the neighborhood.
    The seals in my 93 2.3 Ranger are way better with oil control. Never had to do them. 1qt every 2500.

    Put air to the cyl late afternoon as a trial run. 90-120# air pressure held fine. Compressor cycled no lower than 90.
    Crank marks, cam, and dist did not move from #3 tdc under pressure, a relief.
    Wrapped thick rubber band around stem. Pick tool helped a lot to thread it thru only one coil gap.
    Removed the cam follower, then compressed spring a bit, freed the keepers but did not remove them.
    Seal day tomorrow. Have area covered with towels and clean shop rags like they do for surgery.
    A little at a time. Have food ready for tomorrow to maximize work time and minimal distractions.
    Kind of got back the mindset of no sweat engine assy from my Ford V8 engine build line days.

  4. #4
    FEP Senior Member gt4494's Avatar
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    Default

    I would change them. If memory is correct you can change them with the cam and head in place.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."
    Albert Einstein

    1984 20th Anniversary GT350
    Almost "Stock"

  5. #5
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    Default

    The spring compression tool is handy for this.
    Fox Body/3rd Gen MCA Gold Card Judge
    84 SVO 24K miles, 85 Mclaren Capri Vert. 84 GT Turbo Vert.
    88 Mclaren Mustang Vert 20K miles, 89 Mustang LX Sport Vert,
    03 Mach 1 7900 miles, 74 Mustang II, 69 Mustang, 67 Mustang, 07 GT500,
    14 Mustang CS/GT, 15 F150 FTX Tuscany, 16 F250 Crewcab, 67 Tbird 47K miles

  6. #6
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Default sure is

    Enjoy Labor Day!

    Used my KD 2400 OHC valve spring compressor tool works great.
    Air hold worked fine. Compressor cycled, valve did not move. Valve needs to stay all the way up to reinstall keepers.
    Seal install was easy. Tapped it lightly with socket to insure seating. Drizzled TRW assy lube over cam lobe and follower.
    Took 5 hours from seal install, cleaning sp wires, engine redress, to engine start and test drive.
    Cleaned all the vc bolt holes and bolts with brake cleaner to aid getting correct torque. Coffee breaks and stuff like that took time.
    Did note when removing the vc, gasket was not in correct position in front and leaking.
    Plan is to replace all the vs seals. The others have to be worn, damage not visible like on this one.
    Next time in there, will use shop vac over cyl head oil drain holes just for kicks.
    Was hesitant to start car but remembered the Alan Sheppard line "Come on light the candle".
    Plus, hour after hour at the end of a final line, cars/trucks are started first time and moved quickly out of the way of the next one.
    Either out the door or to a service bay.
    Car drove fine to the store some smoke after stop and during accell, but no huge clouds like before.
    Now to drive car more to see what oil consumption is.
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    Last edited by gr79; 09-05-2021 at 01:54 PM.

  7. #7
    FEP Senior Member gt4494's Avatar
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    Default

    That's Great!!1 Seals may need to break in to the stems a bit and then hopefully you will stop supporting the oil companies..
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."
    Albert Einstein

    1984 20th Anniversary GT350
    Almost "Stock"

  8. #8

    Default

    Nice job! I need to do this on one of my vehicles but my compressor kinda sucks. I am considering using the rope lol
    79 Zephyr, 4.6L 4v/4r70w swap, with team z front and rear suspension, 8.8 and upgraded brakes and coil overs. Running Holley Terminator X Max.

  9. #9
    FEP Senior Member Tigger's Avatar
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    Default

    I have to do this to my dads 79 Pinto wagon. Car has been dormant for 10 years and before I parked it the motor was using a quart ever other tank. Car has always used oil since it was new though. What valve seals did you get? I thought since I was in there, I would put in a roller cam and followers. I have read they wake up the stock motor. I wanted to get it back on the road this year but as usual life got in the way of that. The plan is for next year now.
    67 Mustang Coupe
    96 Tangerine GT
    86 Saleen #179

  10. #10
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Default seal notes

    Doing valve seals with cyl head off the car on a bench is a piece of cake. In car is a different animal.
    More variables to worry and work around. Really no room for error or slip ups.
    Plus the bending over and reaching in...and make sure work area down in there is very well lit.
    Hoses and cords, tools, parts in perfect positions. Save the beer for later.

    The valve seals were part of a Felpro HS 8993 PT-1 head set. Did not use them at rebuild time.
    They are positive seal type, not umbrella. Positive seal type does not ride on stem, they remain on valve guide.
    Rock Auto shows good pics of choices.
    Listed on box as four 70373 exhaust and four 70817 Viton intake seals. Came with plastic install cap. Separate bags.
    The intake and exhaust seals are different in this kit. When head was reworked, rebuilder used all 8 seals of the same style (non-viton).
    The Viton seals have a top ring and bottom purple-blue id bottom band. Std have two rings.
    Valve seal kits are available separately. Mahle, Victor Reintz, others, offer seals too. Some are of different materials.
    Was easy to slide old part off and slide new one on. Only tool used was socket to lightly tap seal in case it was not seated.
    The seal is seated at the top of the stem out of view. The bottom of seal does not quite bottom out on the valve guide flat part.
    It was on good. Could not be twisted or turned once installed. The old one was seated but not tight.

    2.3 valve cover gasket is hi temp molded rubber Felpro VS50043-R1. Has metal grommet inserts at bolt holes.
    Also available from several brands, different colors, similar style with ft locating nub to match cam tower hole. I like the blue.
    Cork rubber slip and leak. Rubber type has channels molded in for no slip fit over cyl head cover flange.

    Really helps to mark the crank damper and timing belt guide in 4 places ahead of time for tdc reference of all 4 cyl.
    Mark 12,3,6,9 o' clock on back of timing belt guide. Mark each 1/4 of the 'pie' with cyl number, at tdc (optional).
    Mark TDC and 180 on crank. Crank turns 2x for every 1x turn of cam.
    Remove dist cap and double check dist rotor is pointing to the right cyl (set at tdc) before removing spring. Close is close.
    Easy to see that both valves are closed when both cam followers are on cam base circle when at tdc of that cyl.

    So its like:
    Check air pressure is holding, check cam/valve position, crank mark, dist rotor position, before proceeding with spring removal.
    The hardest part is holding spring down all the way while reinstalling the keepers. Let spring up easy and watch keepers.
    They must look seated and have an even gap like the other nearby keepers are.
    I think many are lost when attempting to tap them home with a tool. Spring has to be compressed all the way down.
    Some use grease, magnets to aid keeper install. Found this to be cumbersome. Clean dry keepers worked best for me.
    Anything else made the keepers sticky and move out of position too easily, crooked not seating all the way without pushing.
    One would go in fine, the other was the fussy one.
    Tricky with one hand controlling the spring tool, other hand's fingertips to fiddle the keepers home without losing them.
    Oily fingertips or even plastic gloves? are really not the ticket to handle and stuff them in unless confident doing work that way.


    Have to laugh at doing this at home. At the GM engine plant, seen women on the cyl head line doing this.
    Although most of the work was automated, they have more of a natural light touch and patience to do this kind of work.
    Almost like surgery or sewing. Speed is not required, patience, accuracy, dexterity, concentration, and attention to detail is.

  11. #11
    FEP Senior Member Tigger's Avatar
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    Default

    Thanks for the info. I appreciate it.
    67 Mustang Coupe
    96 Tangerine GT
    86 Saleen #179

  12. #12
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    So far, looks like 25 miles per qt oil consumption.
    Heck can skip oil drain interval for now. Oil filter change on the list.
    Engine runs normal. Not leaking oil, at least when parked.
    Smoke is from tailpipes. Easily seen on accel, not when driving with light pedal.
    No drip very little smoke if any when idling.
    Mystery goes on. Internal cracked head/gasket/block? Oil rings?
    Spark plug check ongoing.

  13. #13
    FEP Senior Member gt4494's Avatar
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    Default

    blowing it through the PCV??
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."
    Albert Einstein

    1984 20th Anniversary GT350
    Almost "Stock"

  14. #14
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Sort of wish it was. Did substitute another EV76 no change.
    Also disconnected pcv from intake then plugged the pcv intake port, left pcv open on the hose like a pre-pcv valve draft tube.
    no change. did not blow out any oil.
    next will be to disconnect and plug the turbo oil return. Just in case its acting like a straw. Who knows?
    Dipstick does stay in place like it should. No blowby vapor anywhere, oil fill, v/c breather hose is dry.
    Sure wont install another hivol oil pump.
    Been using synthetic or semi high mile 10w30 with FL1As. Now changing to Valv 10w30 regular.

    When the oil gets changed, will be looking for any debris in drain pan or is stuck to the magnetic drain plug.
    Have caught stuff 2x when i had the VW bugs. They had mag oil strainers.
    #3 cyl had a cracked top ring last time around. But that made a loud knock all the time.
    Rebuilt it with TRW L-2455F forged, arp bolts, Sealed Power E441K rings gapped by shop, Engine is .030 over.
    Engine has always used 1 qt every 1-2k even after rebuild.

    In summer 2016, the rear cyl head core plug sprung a leak.
    Ran the engine pretty hot for a few miles before repair.
    Maybe now a crack or something developed due to that. Or head gasket. Opens up wider when head warms up.
    Keep forgetting to throw in some old but clean s-plugs to see if any cyl oils them up.

    Fuel and oil use as if a 2 cycle 2.3 at 4:1 mix..!

  15. #15
    FEP Senior Member gt4494's Avatar
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    Do the turbo cars have an auxiliary vacuum pump?
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."
    Albert Einstein

    1984 20th Anniversary GT350
    Almost "Stock"

  16. #16
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    Hrmmmm. Take all this with a grain of salt. Just kinda spit-balling...
    No signs of oil in the intake tract?
    In addition to plugging the oil outlet on the turbo, I'd think about running the outlet into a glass jar and going for a short ride to see if any oil is returning from the turbo.
    '85 GT

  17. #17
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Default ongoing monitor of mysterious oil use

    Drove car yesterday few miles to store.
    Have driven 110 miles since turbo was 'disconnected'.
    Used 3 quarts plus about 8 oz of 4th.
    Starts normal, no power loss, no driveability issues or noises.
    Seems not to smoke when driving 35-50, but cars still back off. Good.
    Trying to keep driving to times when traffic is light or none.

    Smoke events are not consistent as to when, except on medium to hard accel.
    Sometimes smokes after sitting at traffic signal, sometimes not. Big puff, then nothing.
    Sometimes smokes when revving in N. Usually a puff then nothing.
    No visible smoke at idle or at steady cruise above 10" vac.
    Possibly smoking more after warm up.

    Changed 4 oily plugs with 4 clean used ones. AWSF32C. Need to drive it a bit to get results to read.
    To see if one cyl or more is causing problem
    It is oil, not a carb or fuel colored smoke.
    Consumed approx 8oz oil in 11 miles. Way way less since turbo was inactivated.
    All new valve stem seals have shown that area not to be the cause.

    Has no aux vac pump
    The oil supply to turbo is plugged. Return line is not (yet). Very hard spot to get at.
    Cannot see inside the intake tract. A swab check thru one of the vac ports did not show anything odd.
    Vac lines connected to intake are dry.
    No blowby smoke or oil residue in valve cover pvc system fresh air inlet.
    Dipstick stays seated.

    Will change oil and filter one of these days. Check very closely for debris in drain pan and on magnetic drain plug.
    Will use magnifying glass if anything is found.

    Possible thoughts
    cracked head (would be one cyl)
    head gasket as to oil control (same)
    lower end- piston oil control rings

  18. #18
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Default FL1A and Purolator 1 L30001

    Was in wm other day. No FL1-A in stock at that particular store.
    Not gonna pay 6.00+ for one at the chain auto stores.
    Noticed Purolator One L30001 filter, blue can, had slotted, not round, inlet holes like a FL1-A.
    Had a red gasket not black. No ridges at end of can for a cup style oil filter tool.
    Interchange listed FL1-A app.

    Also noticed Bosch brand has slots on the Distance Plus version. Prob same vendor.
    Last edited by gr79; 10-31-2021 at 07:40 PM.

  19. #19

    Default

    My SVO was missing the boot from the air cleaner to the VAM (evidently for many years) before I noticed, which don't do the turbo any good. It was using a quart every 200 miles, all through the turbo. Got another boot and rebuilt the turbo and it's good now.

  20. #20
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    Maybe valve guide wear is causing this. The link below might help with some troubleshooting using a vacuum gauge.

    https://www.onallcylinders.com/2015/...gine-problems/
    '85 GT

  21. #21
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Default

    Have in car autometer vac/boost gauge. No flutter. Rock steady.
    Pulled the spark plugs today. Normal. No oily deposits.

  22. #22
    FEP Senior Member rodster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gr79 View Post
    Drove car yesterday few miles to store.
    Have driven 110 miles since turbo was 'disconnected'.
    Used 3 quarts plus about 8 oz of 4th.
    ........
    Wow, never heard of a car using that much oil.

    How many miles on the engine?

    You said it happened suddenly. Hard to imagine even a broken oil ring causing that much oil consumption without oil dripping out of the tailpipe.

  23. #23
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    I was working on a non running carb turbo the other day and I noticed when taking the motor apart there was a rivet in the oil line going to the turbo. I thought that was crazy until I took the oil return line off from the turbo to the block. It was completely stopped up with burnt oil. They had plugged the oil feed line because it was dumping oil in the turbo that could not go back in to the block. You may have a bad turbo seal is were I was going with this, also check the return line.
    Kendal

  24. #24
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Turbocharger was def the source for the unreal oil consumption.
    Was dripping out the tailpipe and under muffler! Oiled up the spark plugs.
    Oil dripping stopped when the t/c oil supply was disconnected.
    Current consumption is consistent at 25 miles per qt. Miles from full to add on dipstick.

    Total miles since 2000 rebuild 160-170k
    New TRW pistons, Clevite bearings, moly rings, arp, cyl head, turbo, carb recon etc oe+ or premium parts, stock build.
    Align hone block, bore .75mm/.030 over w/plate, Sealed Power ring gap moly top .016, 2nd .012. Crank .010.
    Car has est 350k on it. Same engine.
    Normal oil consumption was 1-2k since 1980.

    Turbo was replaced 2009. Third time; oe, rebuild oe, rebuild spare turbo #2.
    Noticed smoke out tailpipe from day one of spare turbo install.
    Slowly got worse after 80k at 1000k then 500k per qt until the t/c oil seals apparently failed.

    Unit does not spin because the exhaust is disconnected from it.
    Turbo oil drain line is still connected. Too hard to access for removal until springtime manifold swap.
    Have not ruled out this connection as a source of oil via intake vac.
    Spark plugs are not getting oiled up anymore.
    Oil smoke cloud after stop and constant during accell.
    Appears smoke is worse after warmup.

    Except for the heavy oil burning, the engine runs totally normal as it always did.
    Everything still checks out fine. Start, driveability, mpg, power, vac and compression readings.

    Changed oil and filter FL-1A, Valvoline 10w30 conventional in Nov. Nothing odd in oil drain pan or inside filter.
    Driven 13 miles since, added 3/4 qt to read full again.

  25. #25
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Wow - she’s got a drinking problem

    I was burning a quart in 50 on my 5.0 a while back. It was down on compression to the point that I didn’t trust it on a hill - I blocked the tire. I treated it with seafoam in the oil and a healthy dose in the fuel.

    After running a tank through it I changed the oil. Way less smoke. Happy. Put a few hundred miles on here and there and just went through 1/2 quart total. Acceptable and beyond considering the car has 1/2 million on it

    It went through a quart in 450 miles on my last outing. I was absolutely clubbing the crap out of it a few times. Top speed was well into triple digits and I left it there for around 100 miles. Was a run much like many I did decades ago.

    You might see if maybe the oil consumption from the other problems has caused oil rings to stick and drive your issue now. It can’t hurt

    good luck

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