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  1. #1

    Default NEED HELP!!! 351W Swap C4 Transmission Starter Problems

    I have a 1984 GT350 that I put a 351W into with a C4 transmission. My C4 is a case fill with a 157 tooth 28 oz imbalance flex plate. When I engage the starter it makes an awful grinding noise and I am unsure if the engine is turning over fast enough to start. I loosened the torque converter nuts and there is play in the converter it is not bound up and the noise does not go away with the nuts loose or off. I checked run out with a dial indicator and it is only 10-15 thousands of an inch out. I have tried multiple starters. 2 of them were brand new. I have pulled the transmission and inspected the block spacer plate for any signs of scraping or rubbing and there are none. There is no sign of contact anywhere on any parts other that the gold finish is worn off of my new flex plate where the starter engages the teeth. Also the engine turns over fine by hand with absolutely no noise or resistance. Any assistance would be appreciated. Thanks! I have a video of my issue but it will not upload so if any one would like to see that let me know how I can send it to you. Thanks!
    Last edited by wraithracing; 05-14-2021 at 08:13 AM. Reason: Text Color

  2. #2
    FEP Power Member Broncojunkie's Avatar
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    Did you use the correct block plate for an auto? I'm not sure that would cause your issue, but I am pretty sure the block plate is different than a manual.
    79 Pace Car - 331, t5
    79 Pace Car- 302, 4 spd
    79 Cobra - working on 351w, t5
    82 Capri- working on 302, t5
    82gt - working on 408w, c4

  3. #3
    FEP Power Member tonysilver82's Avatar
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    What bellhousing are you using

  4. #4

  5. #5

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    Still having this same issue. I have tried everything

  6. #6

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    Just guessing here but it seems that perhaps your starter tooth engagement is off. Maybe the block plate is positioning your starter teeth too close to the flywheel or something. Can you remove it to try ?

    I have a 302 rigged up on a test stand without a block plate and I know I must sometimes loosen the bolts on the starter and move it around slightly to get the right engagement and re-tighten etc or it will make grinding noises.

    Hope that helps

  7. #7

    Default

    Some things to consider/check (starter tooth depth engagement):

    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
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  8. #8

    Default

    Ok so I verified that I do have the correct starter. And it is the 3/4" depth. I am totally lost here. I am running out of things to check. Just want to drive my car!

  9. #9
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Fords don't normally need them like Chevy engines do, but you might need to consider a starter shim. https://www.summitracing.com/search/...kits/make/ford

    Have you tested the starters out of the car? I assume they are fine with 2 of them being new, but I would just to verify there isn't any noise coming from the starters. Also look at the teeth on the starter gears and the flexplate, do they show signs of damage? If that is the case, then you definitely have a clearance issue and the starter shims may solve your problem. You should be able to pick them up at a local auto parts store. I have only used a shim on a Ford one time in almost 40 years, but it definitely needed it that one time. Good Luck!
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Stalled RestoModification
    1984 SVO Still Waiting Restoration
    1986 GT Under going Wide Body Conversion Currently

    Current Capris:
    1981 Capri Roller
    1981 Capri Black Magic Roller Basket Case
    1982 Capri RS 5.0/4spd T-top Full Restoration Stalled in TX
    1984 Capri RS T-top Roller
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts

  10. #10
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    @JunkMan55, where are you located? There might be another 4eye member near you who could give you a hand.

  11. #11

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    https://youtu.be/QdA9PdDV_Bc

    Here is a video of the issue that I am having. I am in central PA. Also in the video it appears that the flexplate is out of round but when checked with a dial indicator it is only .015" out. I have also tried shimming the starter with a couple thin washers, but I will try the actual shim.

  12. #12

  13. #13

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    No wear on sides of the ring gear. Paint is just wore off where starter engages. The left hand side of the photo is the away from engine side of the ring gear and the right hand side would be toward the engine

  14. #14
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    If I understand your pictures and description that appears that the starter is too deep into the bellhousing, but also too far away from the flexplate. The starter teeth are barely engaging the flywheel.

    Again as long as I am viewing this correctly it appears you need to move the starter towards the flexplate (towards the crankshaft centerline) and possiby shim it away from the bellhousing for proper engagement between the starter bendix and the flexplate.

    I am not the automatic expert, but it appears to me you need the larger 164 tooth flexplate with the bellhousing you are using or you need a different block spacer plate that moves the starter more towards the engine. I have a Lakewood scattershield that has the block plate with two starter mounting options. One is closer to the block by @3/8" and the other is further to the outside depending on what flywheel I am using with that bellhousing.

    As shown above in the post by Walking Tall you might also be able to consider a different starter to address the depth issue rather than using shims. Good Luck!
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Stalled RestoModification
    1984 SVO Still Waiting Restoration
    1986 GT Under going Wide Body Conversion Currently

    Current Capris:
    1981 Capri Roller
    1981 Capri Black Magic Roller Basket Case
    1982 Capri RS 5.0/4spd T-top Full Restoration Stalled in TX
    1984 Capri RS T-top Roller
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts

  15. #15

    Default

    Yes I don't know how I didn't realize that before, it is clear by looking at the ring gear that the starter is only engaging the edge of the teeth. So the issue is now I have a 157 tooth bellhousing and a 157 tooth flexplate. There is no possible way to use the 164 tooth flexplate with my bellhousing. Also the separator plate that I have, to my knowledge is the only possible option for this bellhousing as well. The starter nose cone and the bolts that hold the starter on go through the separator plate and the bolts thread into the bellhousing. The hole in the separator plate is an exact fit for the starter nose cone so it does not allow the starter to be moved around, And my starter bolts line up perfectly through the holes in the separator plate to the threads in the bellhousing. So I know that my separator plate and bellhousing match. The only way to move my starter gear farther into my flexplate ring gear would be to get a starter with a larger diameter gear, right? Now I just need to figure out how to move my starter closer to my flexplate.

  16. #16
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Not sure if this will shed any light on the subject or not, but at least it's informative. https://static.speedwaymotors.com/pdf/91067430.pdf

    Again I am not the automatic expert and NON of my Four Eyes have automatics, so I might be wrong, but are you 100% positive that your bellhousing might not be a 164 tooth flexplate? My information shows the 164 is @11" and the 157 is @10.5" so if those measurements are accurate that means the flywheel would only be @ 1/4" closer to the starter than the current 157 tooth, which from pictures, looks like it might be what you need.
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Stalled RestoModification
    1984 SVO Still Waiting Restoration
    1986 GT Under going Wide Body Conversion Currently

    Current Capris:
    1981 Capri Roller
    1981 Capri Black Magic Roller Basket Case
    1982 Capri RS 5.0/4spd T-top Full Restoration Stalled in TX
    1984 Capri RS T-top Roller
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts

  17. #17

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    I am positive mine is the 157 flex plate and matching bell housing

  18. #18
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Do the ribs on the bellhousing go all the way down the bellhousing to where it bolts to the transmission case?
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Stalled RestoModification
    1984 SVO Still Waiting Restoration
    1986 GT Under going Wide Body Conversion Currently

    Current Capris:
    1981 Capri Roller
    1981 Capri Black Magic Roller Basket Case
    1982 Capri RS 5.0/4spd T-top Full Restoration Stalled in TX
    1984 Capri RS T-top Roller
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts

  19. #19

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    Yes, and my bell housing bolts on with the pump bolts

  20. #20
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JunkMan55 View Post
    Yes, and my bell housing bolts on with the pump bolts
    Well from what I can find it sounds like a 157 tooth bellhousing. If that is the case, then the starter has to different than what you currently have in order to work. I can't think of any other way to make it all work without a different starter at this point. Maybe another member has more/better information. Good Luck!
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Stalled RestoModification
    1984 SVO Still Waiting Restoration
    1986 GT Under going Wide Body Conversion Currently

    Current Capris:
    1981 Capri Roller
    1981 Capri Black Magic Roller Basket Case
    1982 Capri RS 5.0/4spd T-top Full Restoration Stalled in TX
    1984 Capri RS T-top Roller
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts

  21. #21

    Default starter

    Quote Originally Posted by JunkMan55 View Post
    https://youtu.be/QdA9PdDV_Bc

    Here is a video of the issue that I am having. I am in central PA. Also in the video it appears that the flexplate is out of round but when checked with a dial indicator it is only .015" out. I have also tried shimming the starter with a couple thin washers, but I will try the actual shim.
    it looks like your starter gear is always engaged into the flywheel it should pop out then turn the flywheel then pull back when the key is let go it would make hella noise if it started with the starter gear staying in the flywheel. maybe you got the wrong starter.
    I think they make a long and a short nose one
    Last edited by halfrack; 06-25-2021 at 01:28 PM.

  22. #22

    Default

    Ordered a 10 tooth starter that is supposed to fix me up. In oppose to the 9 tooth starter that I currently have.

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