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  1. #1

    Default Most reliable carb out there...... if going EFI via Holley isnít the end all be all.

    Once again Iím falling back on you guys. My 85s getting a makeover inside and out before returning to my family as the weekend cruiser/ family fun car.

    Been researching Holley EFI kits but getting some mixed reviews as to IF itís worth the money compared to what you get from your car running EFI.

    Most important to me is reliability and no gas smell in the car. All else comes second.

    So what carb would you knowledgeable people recommend for a 85 302 with the following:
    AirGap intake
    AFR 165s
    1.72 RR
    Stock internals
    Stock H.O. cam
    Shorty headers
    Bassani X pipe WITH Catalytic converters.
    Bassani cat back
    Removed smog
    Non functioning AC

    Willing to put alittle money where my mouth is to get the desired comfort and reliability
    Joe E.

  2. #2
    FEP Power Member richpet's Avatar
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    I had good results with a Holley SA carb. My set up was a little more stout and I ran the 570. Ran great, great throttle response, good mpg. Some say a 670 would have given me a little more top end but at a 5500-6000 rpm limit anyway, I preferred the response of the slightly smaller carb.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
    83 5.0 GT. Quicker than it looks! 10:1 (or just over) 306, Motorsport a332 cam, 140A alt, t5 conv, 8.8 w/ 3.27's, Edel rpm, alum rad, very worked e7's, Holley SA carb, etc... SOLD IT!!!!

    Now an 1981 Granada! Building a 9.5:1 .040 over 302, Edel E-street heads, 268 cam, T5, 8.8 with 3.55, plus all the stiffening goodies, all control arms, lowered, alum shaft, x-pipe with Outlaws...

    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

  3. #3

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    I’m also running a Holley Street Avenger 670 carb. Vacuum secondaries. Been a nice unit for the last 15 years. But the smell of gas in the cab is horrible. Any tips?
    Joe E.

  4. #4
    FEP Power Member Ethyl Cat's Avatar
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    Get the 670 tuned properly and make sure you have complete tailpipes and not turndowns or shorter that stock exhaust tips.

    Also verify your evap system integrity to make sure tank vapors are not venting in the wrong spots
    BBD PERFORMANCE
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  5. #5
    FEP Senior Member 854vragtop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joelliott View Post
    Iím also running a Holley Street Avenger 670 carb. Vacuum secondaries. Been a nice unit for the last 15 years. But the smell of gas in the cab is horrible. Any tips?
    Joe E.
    Just buy a rebuild kit for it, a gallon of carb cleaner to soak it in, and use a cut up milk jug so submerse the parts. It should run like the day you got it, unless the throttle shaft bushings are loose and sloppy.

    I'm a big fan of Holley's. That being said, I've had excellent luck with the Summit Racing 600 CFM carb. I've been running it now since about 2012 on my '85. It is basically a knock off of the old Holley 4010, uses Holley parts, and tunes EXACTLY like a Holley. Excellent throttle response (annular discharge boosters on all 4 barrels) and cold weather driveability. I even put a Holley quick change vacuum secondary kit on it. Bolts right on.

    The only issue was having to relocate my coil to my A/C support bracket because of the dual feed line.

    Back to the smell, check/replace all your fuel hoses and find a phenolic carb spacer to keep the fuel from boiling out of the bowls.
    Last edited by 854vragtop; 03-26-2021 at 04:29 PM.
    '85 Mustang convertible GT, 5 speed, 4V
    Stock bottom end, Comp Cams XE264HR-14, GT-40P heads w/ Alex's springs, Weiand 8124 Street Warrior
    8.8 Turbo Coupe rear end w/ 3.55 gears, '94/'95 Cobra brakes, '85 Town Car M/C, '93 Cobra booster, MM Panhard bar.

    '68 Mercury Cougar, w/ '88 5.0L, 4V
    My photo website:
    http://www.twilightphoto.com/

  6. #6

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    Been running a Holley 1850 (600cfm) on mine for decades.
    Trick is to get someone that knows what they are doing to tune it. Mine was tuned by a friend that has been running Fords and Holleys for decades. Never a stumble and the only fuel smell is out the tailpipes until the choke (elec.) comes all the way off. Shorties and no cats

    Good luck!
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."
    Albert Einstein

    1984 20th Anniversary GT350
    Almost "Stock"

  7. #7

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    Holley 600 vac secondary. Tune the secondary springs and run a green pump cam. Set it all up and enjoy life.

    Or avs 2 650cfm for mileage and like efi driving.

    But I love holleys myself..

  8. #8

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    If you're up for modifying the 600 (670 is marketing, and a common response from Holley's "tech" is that they wish that carburetor would go away) vacuum secondary... they need modifying, and then work very well like a good old Holley 1850 does...

    - A "4-corner idle" (idle mixture screws front and rear?) carburetor really is overkill on a stock-cammed engine...
    - Air-gap intake... 0.001"+ than usual suggested idle feed restriction sizes...
    - Primary and secondary idle air bleeds are too big... secondary jets too small...
    - Some with "emulsion" tubes and no bleed up high for them, some without tubes and friggin' bleeds up high...
    - Some with, some without traditional booster correction ("emulsion") bleeds in the air wells...
    - Some with metering blocks meant for "reverse idle", with ~0.105" (too big) idle adjusting orifice for the mixture screws, with regular sharp tip mixture screws that are meant to work with 0.063" idle adjusting orifices... if the case, replacement blocks needed...

    Potential difficult to simply tune-out malfunctions and fuel-stink issues a-plenty. Fix-able. Work real good when all of the ding-battery is fixed. Cheaper to fix than replace (unless you find a cheap good shape 1850 or 80457 core (the older, the better)), and most definitely cheaper than changing everything to EFI.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  9. #9

    Default

    Thanks for the info. I’ll see what I can muster up with it. I’m definitely not a carb tuner. I had a old fella that worked w my Pops who was a racer from the 70s/80s. He always tuned up the car well but did say it was tuned for performance, not comfort. Maybe it’s just been too aggressively tuned all this time. That and the exhaust was straight piped back in the late 80s. I’ve now got a full Bassani exhaust coming with cats and hopefully that will help a lot.

    I’m not sure how to go about the evap system check. I know my dad pulled off a bit of the smog stuff back in the 90s. Mainly at the top of the engine. Charcoal canister is still in place etc. The heat riser tubes have also been removed long ago. Now it’s got shorty BBK headers so let’s see how it ends up.

    I just know I’m totally over the gassy smell from the car. I’m not putting my kid in there (I can remember every day coming home from school and falling asleep within 5 minutes of being in the car. Maybe the no ac and Florida 90 degree heat had something to do with it too).

    What spacer do you recommend?
    Thanks again
    Joe E.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walking-Tall View Post
    If you're up for modifying the 600 (670 is marketing, and a common response from Holley's "tech" is that they wish that carburetor would go away) vacuum secondary... they need modifying, and then work very well like a good old Holley 1850 does...

    - A "4-corner idle" (idle mixture screws front and rear?) carburetor really is overkill on a stock-cammed engine...
    - Air-gap intake... 0.001"+ than usual suggested idle feed restriction sizes...
    - Primary and secondary idle air bleeds are too big... secondary jets too small...
    - Some with "emulsion" tubes and no bleed up high for them, some without tubes and friggin' bleeds up high...
    - Some with, some without traditional booster correction ("emulsion") bleeds in the air wells...
    - Some with metering blocks meant for "reverse idle", with ~0.105" (too big) idle adjusting orifice for the mixture screws, with regular sharp tip mixture screws that are meant to work with 0.063" idle adjusting orifices... if the case, replacement blocks needed...

    Potential difficult to simply tune-out malfunctions and fuel-stink issues a-plenty. Fix-able. Work real good when all of the ding-battery is fixed. Cheaper to fix than replace (unless you find a cheap good shape 1850 or 80457 core (the older, the better)), and most definitely cheaper than changing everything to EFI.
    Thanks for the tech info here. I’ll see what my tuner friend can do with it.
    I’m also open to just buying a new carb. So if you have a good suggestion for one that more reliable and no stink friendly than what I got, by all means let me know. Anything is cheaper than going EFI. But I’m kinda desperate to loose that gas stink.
    Joe E.

  11. #11
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    I agree with annular discharge booster versions of Holley carbs. Great drivability no bogs with my 4 cyl.
    Is 70 cfm larger than stock carb and read they smooth out the venturi action if engine is over carbed a bit.
    Stronger signal than regular downleg boosters. Notice quicker response down low and even gives same or better fuel econ.

    Dunno if your year has a plastic return line from the tank to evap canister up front.
    Can is designed to purge trapped fuel and vapor from carb and tank when engine runs. A valve closes when parked.
    Close inspection under the car revealed a crack in the tubing. Fuel vapor. Spliced it with rubber hose.
    Check gas cap gasket. Sniff around to find source of smell. Maybe have a vac leak?
    Check fuel lines and connections for cracked rubber hoses, front to rear, around ft fender well, fuel pump too,
    Also the tank filler runs inside car (hatchback) behind the 1/4 trim. There is also an overflow tube there.
    Any holes in the body can let in outside air.

    I remember in the 60's the gas smell from the family cars. They were new every few years.
    Garage was attached to house, side door to house with storm.
    Us kids in and out all day. No prob if dad was at work with car.
    Later in day, Ma- "Keep that dam door shut when the car is in the garage i don't want those gas fumes in my house"

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelliott View Post
    Thanks for the tech info here. Iíll see what my tuner friend can do with it.
    Iím also open to just buying a new carb. So if you have a good suggestion for one that more reliable and no stink friendly than what I got, by all means let me know. Anything is cheaper than going EFI. But Iím kinda desperate to loose that gas stink.
    Joe E.
    The newer, prettier, and more expensive they are... gets ya damage and/or machining debris throughout, a jacked-up calibration, inefficiency overall, eye-burning/oil-diluting/plug-fouling gas stink, and gratuitous fuel consumption and power loss to boot... they ought to find a sneaky way to incorporate those extra special details into their marketing materials.

    Here's a recipe for smartening that "4-corner idle" 600 up:
    Idle Feed Restrictions: 0.027" (because of air-gap intake) primary and secondary, down-low position...
    Idle Air Bleeds: 0.070" primary and 0.028" secondary... *
    Main Air Bleeds: 0.028" primary & 0.025" secondary...
    Traditional metering blocks, no "emulsion" tubes or bleeds up high for them, and as to "emulsion" air well bleeds, and lastly as to passages where the idle mixture screw tips go into in the metering blocks are 0.063", NOT 0.105"...
    Main Jets: #65 primary & #70 secondary...
    Primary power valve channel restrictions: 0.046"...
    Accelerator pump cam: white or green are quick ones off the mark...
    Secondary diaphragm spring: purple ideally, but whichever works best with available secondary transition air:fuel *
    Any small secondary constant idle feed holes directly below the secondary transfer slots - block with your choice of method - not needed for a 4-corner idle carburetor...
    Close secondary throttle plates completely, open them 1/4-turn...
    * with the 0.028" secondary idle air bleed, and minimal secondary idle mixture screw opening (~1/2-turn open, & primary idle mixture screws set to the customary initial 1-1/2 turns out... concentrate all idle quality adjustment on the primary settings), which should provide adequate secondary transition air:fuel for a quick secondary opening rate...

    Good luck with it
    Last edited by Walking-Tall; 03-27-2021 at 06:04 PM.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  13. #13
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    All the changes Ford made to the 4180C 4BBL were to pull out the cold start hydrocarbons before the catalyst light off in the two minutes from crank to a steady state.

    All the EECIV controlled cars and some of the feed back EECIII 5.0 and 5.8 liters with DuraSpark III were entirely good from the zero to 2 minute phase in hot and cold conditions. The breakthough was in the shed hydrocarbons reduction, most through activated carbon emissions Purge and sealed float bowl purging.

    The very thing Holley and Fitch et all imply ( without telling you) to remove. The majority of the smell is "lit-off" by winding down the advancenter and downstream diverting the Air Intake Reduction by dilution from the 31 pound per hour air pump. Once Purge and AIR is removed, you then have a pull down choke, ISC or Throttle Solenoid Positioner or VOTM and Hot Idle Compensator that kicks the throttle to cope with Air Conditioning or heat loads. The return of the High Out Put 5 liter got a primary Light Off Catalyst with Load Control valve to modulate the priority header heat.

    All of that is the first to go on any reworked 5 liter and thats why it stinks. The 80 to 85 passenger car 5 liters and 82-88 Carb truck 351Ms and W's are cleverly contrived.

    The bank fire and sequential 5.0 and 5.8s, they have to run a lot of extra timing and EEC feedbacks to do as well as the four or five stock Purge/AIR/throttle Kicker/Closed Bowl Vent/ Air Cleaner Heat stove priority systemperature does stock.

    When people do Guerilla Radio Tune and turn the sh1ų out, you then have to use the CFI style emissions package to. control it. That's spark tip in or Intake Solenoid Air Control, asome kind of DFPV EGR, and the sealing of the Throttle body from evaporative shed emissions. This have a specific Posit I've Crank case ventilation system rigged up.

    If you follow the 1984 to 1985 5.0 Std Performance and HO
    Central Fuel Injection system or the 84-86 3.8 CFI Vaccum Emission Control Install, you just have the bowlatest venting and some other minor Purge parts to install.

    Ford, Chrysler's, GM and AMC's troublesome "Feed Back" carbs were an attempt to Pulse Width Modulate idle and cruise Air Fuel so the cars didn't stink or upset the 12 mile Fed Sniffer test, which included over night emissions shed hydrocarbons readings.

    The Q Jet/ThermoQuad/2150/Carter BBD/YFA/Motorcraft 2700 /7200/6520...all of them failed to operate reliably. Throttle Body EFI was a good third step, but port EFI is better still. The issue is...no one likes emissions equipment cluttering up engine bays. The solution is a proper mulipoint EFI system with port injection.

    If 4bbl, you will have to copy the Q Jet or 4180C bowl vent. The modern Edelbrocks and Google Valve Demons and all the Throttle Body EFI's are missing the stock Ford 1980-1988 carb passenger car and truck Emission parts. So they will never meat the hydrocarbon requirements.

    No body tells you that when you junk your stock 2 or 4bbl carb to pUT an aftermarket OEM Improvement on. They are all a crock of cap compared to what Ford put on from 80-88. The problems are fixed if you get an old 1958 1850 4 bbl and supply some Walking Tall Science to them. BowL vent solenoids and Hot Idle Compensators aND a good air cleaner with a Purge canister and down stream AIR will fix 95% of the hydrocarbon smell.

    All modifications to 1980 to 1985 carb 5.0s with an aftermarket carb or Throttle BodY EFI will just make your car a hydrocarbon shed unless it's done the way Ford did it in the 80-88 SUVS or carb passanger cars.

    Time to go back to Emissions 101 from Cale and JA Cook.

  14. #14
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy View Post
    It lookes like, as long as you have


    1. the rough description of the VECI (Vehicle Emission Control Information Label)
    2. the Ford Engineering number
    3. a visual picture
    4. a knowledge of what year VECI it comes from.

    Then you can then lock down

    1. what it is, and
    2. where to get it.

    Like this



    An further example of the original hosing types from small to large are here.

    These small diameter replacement hoses show the original coloring that matches the VECI color protocol.



    Your hose replacement options are to


    1. craft/exacto knife the stock rubber tubes before replacement,

    2. copy any length and any

    3. "form fitting" bends (often the case with larger hoses...Ford has then form bent, so you need to find a similar sub bend, and join new aftermarket bends to gether, and

    4. then perhaps, look at Stormin'Normans options for hose replacement.

    This guy
    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/member.p...Stormin-Norman

    like Red78',

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/member.php?6186-RED-78

    Both a FoMoCo parts dynomo's




    All 4-bbl V8's, from the little 5.0 to the huge 460 F250 truck, used the same colored emissions protocol

    Here is the 1986 4V 7.5 Liter non Catalyst F520 truck VECI





    After 1985, Ford totally aced the class on emission equipment.

    Like this 5.0 EFI stuff

    See Cale and JA CooKS fuel tank.and.intake Manifold. Purge.system.Stock on all 80 to 85 Fox Fords.

  15. #15
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Everyone is wrong about emissions and emissions schematics. Take time to just Learn the Basics


    Quote Originally Posted by JACook View Post
    The Carbureted 5.0s never used an electrical solenoid for canister purge. Judging by the size of the hose nipples,
    the photo in Post #1 is most likely a bowl vent solenoid, or possibly altitude compensator as xctasy mentioned.
    Canister purge solenoids tend to have ~1/4" or smaller hose nipples, like this one (used on the '84 - '85 CFI 5.0) -



    When it comes to emissions devices, keep in mind most people are confused about which systems do what, and
    will often mis-identify the parts they are selling.

    On all the carbureted 5.0s, canister purge is done using purely mechanical purge valves, that are controlled by EGR
    vacuum (or distributor ported vacuum for cars without an EGR vacuum source).



    Your car would have originally had two canisters, one on the passenger side front frame member, the other
    tucked up under the fender in the same general area. Each canister had it's own purge valve.

    Lotta useful information in this thread -
    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...vap-components

  16. #16
    FEP Power Member richpet's Avatar
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    The Fitech, or similar system, really is nice.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
    83 5.0 GT. Quicker than it looks! 10:1 (or just over) 306, Motorsport a332 cam, 140A alt, t5 conv, 8.8 w/ 3.27's, Edel rpm, alum rad, very worked e7's, Holley SA carb, etc... SOLD IT!!!!

    Now an 1981 Granada! Building a 9.5:1 .040 over 302, Edel E-street heads, 268 cam, T5, 8.8 with 3.55, plus all the stiffening goodies, all control arms, lowered, alum shaft, x-pipe with Outlaws...

    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

  17. #17
    FEP Senior Member 854vragtop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joelliott View Post
    Thanks for the tech info here. Iíll see what my tuner friend can do with it.
    Iím also open to just buying a new carb. So if you have a good suggestion for one that more reliable and no stink friendly than what I got, by all means let me know. Anything is cheaper than going EFI. But Iím kinda desperate to loose that gas stink.
    Honestly, the best and cheapest thing to do is to rebuild what you have. With all the YouTube videos out there on rebuilding Holley's, you should have no problems doing it yourself.

    1) The biggest trick is to bag & tag everything you take apart with small Ziplock baggies and a Sharpie. Write what the parts are and use the exploded view picture in the instructions that come with the rebuild kit to number everything.

    2) Only use a genuine Holley kit.

    3) Never pry the bowls off anywhere near the bottom of the bowls. If you accidentally damage the sealing surface while prying, it's better to have that surface above the bowl fuel level.

    4) Always use a plastic scraper to clean the gasket surfaces and use a spray on gasket remover (dissolves paper).

    5) Use a Sharpie to mark the direction and top/bottom of the old gaskets to help you during re-assembly.

    6) Do not over tighten the accelerator pump housing plate screws. It will warp the pump housing plate and cause leaks.

    7) Buy Holley accelerator pump cam kit and use the green pump cam. This will help with any slight hesitation when getting back on the throttle every time you shift. Also, adjust the accelerator pump bolt/spring combo so ALL the slack is out of it. ALWAYS adjust this when the car is warm and the choke is off the high idle detent, otherwise there will be slop in the linkage which will cause hesitation. I always ignore the instructions with say to have a certain gap (measured with feeler gages at WOT/wide open throttle). I put a SMALL dab of grease on the pump arm to keep the nylon pump cam from wearing down over time. The biggest key to adjusting all the slop out of the linkage is to make sure you have fuel squirting out of the squirters immediately with the slightest throttle movement.

    8 ) If you have anything less than 64 size main metering jets (located in the front metering block), buy a set of 64 size jets. The newer oxygenated fuels tend to run lean. You'll notice a lean hesitation/stumble at steady state cruising with 62 size jets.

    9) Always adjust your bowl fuel level with the engine off. Otherwise, you'll spray fuel everywhere and possibly start a fire. The screw just tightens everything down. The nut actually raises/lowers the needle and seat assembly, which adjusts when the float will close the needle, stopping the fuel flowing into the bowl. This make take 5 or more times to get the fuel level just right. Put paper towels under the float bowl sight window to sop up spilled fuel until you're finished adjusting the fuel level.

    10) Pay attention to how the choke cap is set and slowly remove the cap to observe how the loop at the end of the spring engages the lever inside the choke housing. This will also help you during re-assembly.

    You will be surprised how many problems you'll solve just by rebuilding the carb. It's not hard to do. It will help you to understand how it works and help you to understand what you're doing when you tune it.
    '85 Mustang convertible GT, 5 speed, 4V
    Stock bottom end, Comp Cams XE264HR-14, GT-40P heads w/ Alex's springs, Weiand 8124 Street Warrior
    8.8 Turbo Coupe rear end w/ 3.55 gears, '94/'95 Cobra brakes, '85 Town Car M/C, '93 Cobra booster, MM Panhard bar.

    '68 Mercury Cougar, w/ '88 5.0L, 4V
    My photo website:
    http://www.twilightphoto.com/

  18. #18
    FEP Power Member Ethyl Cat's Avatar
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    If you go thru the 670 have it completely machined square.

    Most times a rebuild will handle an issue for a short time if it is done on a warped main body but it WILL return. Internal issues are impossible to diagnose and a lot of times its the reason that multiples of the same type carb will run differently on the same engine.

    The newer the carb the worse they are from the factory it seems. These are the only current pics I have of my setup and a practice carb


    Name:  carb 1.JPG
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Size:  45.2 KBName:  carb 2.JPG
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Size:  46.1 KBName:  carb 3.JPG
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Size:  45.2 KBName:  carb 4.JPG
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    Last edited by Ethyl Cat; 04-05-2021 at 03:30 PM.
    BBD PERFORMANCE
    HIGH PERFORMANCE PARTS
    CUSTOM ENGINE BUILDS
    CUSTOM CAM DESIGNS
    1983 CRIMSON CAT OWNER

  19. #19
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Two finger grip on the screwdriver is about right to minimize over torque of screws.
    Optional Holley blue gaskets are claimed to be reusable and non-stick.

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