Holley Terminator vs. EEC/Quarterhorse vs. Megasquirt

[ZephyrEFI]

Okay so, I'm just thinking ahead at this point; my car is still slumbering.

In the past, I was dead set on using a factory computer with all its inputs correct and intact, for example, MAF and O2s. I didn't like the idea that a Megasquirt doesn't use many of the factory inputs, even though it's many times smarter. The other thing I really didn't like about the Megasquirt was the fact that it's up to you to get it running correctly. No thank you. My assumption with an EEC was that at least you start with a pretty good foundation/tune that will run decently well and you only need to tweak little things from there to get the most out of your engine.

BUT... since I made that decision, I've been reading a book about tuning, and the book seems to assume that you will be starting from scratch anyway. I only got about 2/3 of the way through, so I will grant you that I don't have the whole picture. I DO NOT WANT TO START FROM SCRATCH. I want to enjoy the car now, not have to be doing significant fiddling with tables in perpetuity to even get it to rev like a factory stock car should. And if I do have to do that, the Quarterhorse interface is clunky compared to what you get with a Megasquirt or Terminator. The reason I have EFI over carb is so that I don't have to fiddle!

I also since found out when a tuner typically tunes an EEC IV, one of the first things they do is lock it in open loop anyway, so it's not even using many of those inputs I thought were so important!

I was looking a bit into the Terminator, and there is a phrase in there that is very appealing to me. SELF LEARNING. But my question is, is it that simple? Plug it in and go?!

Background on my setup: It's a SEFI 306 w/GT40P heads both pistons and heads tweaked an indeterminate amount for additional compression. Cam is a Flowtech for a P head 302. 24# injectors, Explorer intake and TB, 70mm Cobra MAF. Pretty much a Cobra engine right? So I thought it would be best to run an X3Z computer. I currently can't get the MOFO to idle, I don't know it's related to any sort of computer or sensor mismatch. To be really honest I wouldn't be doing any "tuning" at all if I had my way, but I thought it would help get the most out of my engine.

[xctasy]

Do the factory base idle reset as described by BREW2L in his three videos.

Ford changed the MAF sensor sampling rate and the activated PID's so early 1992 computers for Foxes sometimes are best reprogrammed as a later BIN code on a later ECU/ECM.

Clock speed changes on the chip and MAF interfaces were the result of Ford trying to keep the 86 to 95 5.0 and 5.8 Speed Density and MAF computers similar for 9 years for emissions compliance, and Italian and Ford Australian use requirements.

It causes problems when the build list parts don't interlink. So a last year 1992 Fox SVT Cobra 5.0 and a 1994 White SN95 5.8 Cobra vary a heck of a lot, and its frustrating that many parts link up but don't communicate the mission critical information. The two engines are just 30 hp different in actual flywhee net hp (268 verses 295 hp according to my sources despite the factory SAE net figures) but the MAF transforms and chips don't interchange with out some serious help.

So you have many options that should work that don't easily transfer. That's how it is when the two Windsor OHV 5.0s and 5.8s were used from deTomaso Pantera Si 2's to uncle Jessies farm truck.


Check Michael D P''s site.

Be encouraged.


http://www.efidynotuning.com/

http://www.efidynotuning.com/downloads.htm


Who MDP is


https://fordsix.com/threads/stock-ecu-tuning.82060/

Progress! We have the Cobra computer and MAF installed (on the old engine)! Seems happy enough at this point, but I just need it to be able to drive me around enough to test my brake and cruise repairs. Then the old engine gets yanked!



Pretty sure I've decided on Moats stuff for tuning. The Quarterhorse costs about the same as the SCT chip, and has way more capabilities. I know there's a little more to buy, but it gives me more flexibility going forward.

You are on the right track.

I will copy this and send it to Michael D, the EECIV and V guru.

Your problem is a simple one. Normally the code reader showes up a compatability issue if there is one. You can change one setting in the idle perameter if the rolling doesn't go away.

Please don't be anxious. Everything you've done is right. I assure you that the issue is a simple one. Often, it's just the J3 or just one of the 60 pin plug parts that isn't quite connecting.

Moats is a live data and control interface with the most amazing backup. It allows you to fix most things just like Tuner Studio and MegaSquirt does, but it won't cause other inadvertent problems.

[xctasy]

Three standard videos are

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T-T0Ry7VmA0&t=327s

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3PrUuPLuHdI

ISC what he calls IAC.

https://youtu.be/oPhgAf2o0UA

[OX1]

Okay so, I'm just thinking ahead at this point; my car is still slumbering.

In the past, I was dead set on using a factory computer with all its inputs correct and intact, for example, MAF and O2s. I didn't like the idea that a Megasquirt doesn't use many of the factory inputs, even though it's many times smarter. The other thing I really didn't like about the Megasquirt was the fact that it's up to you to get it running correctly. No thank you. My assumption with an EEC was that at least you start with a pretty good foundation/tune that will run decently well and you only need to tweak little things from there to get the most out of your engine.

BUT... since I made that decision, I've been reading a book about tuning, and the book seems to assume that you will be starting from scratch anyway. I only got about 2/3 of the way through, so I will grant you that I don't have the whole picture. I DO NOT WANT TO START FROM SCRATCH. I want to enjoy the car now, not have to be doing significant fiddling with tables in perpetuity to even get it to rev like a factory stock car should. And if I do have to do that, the Quarterhorse interface is clunky compared to what you get with a Megasquirt or Terminator. The reason I have EFI over carb is so that I don't have to fiddle!

I also since found out when a tuner typically tunes an EEC IV, one of the first things they do is lock it in open loop anyway, so it's not even using many of those inputs I thought were so important!

I was looking a bit into the Terminator, and there is a phrase in there that is very appealing to me. SELF LEARNING. But my question is, is it that simple? Plug it in and go?!

Background on my setup: It's a SEFI 306 w/GT40P heads both pistons and heads tweaked an indeterminate amount for additional compression. Cam is a Flowtech for a P head 302. 24# injectors, Explorer intake and TB, 70mm Cobra MAF. Pretty much a Cobra engine right? So I thought it would be best to run an X3Z computer. I currently can't get the MOFO to idle, I don't know it's related to any sort of computer or sensor mismatch. To be really honest I wouldn't be doing any "tuning" at all if I had my way, but I thought it would help get the most out of my engine.

Had this guy tune my dads blown 331 in his LTD with a quarterhorse. Runs well, except I ran out of fuel pump, so never finished the WOT tuning. My dad was only going to car shows, so didn't ever need more than half throttle. Anyway, you do have to know how to load the tunes and datalog, but the rest was done by him.

http://www.efidynotuning.com/

[xctasy]

QH is great. Everyone wants instant AntiHyperSpamSuper Tune in a can. With port EFI EECiv, it was locked up by Ford after one of those 305 Horsepower Pantera Si 2's got loose in 1990. It was suddenly downgraded to 248 hp the next year. Fords purposely shotgun splattered and outsourced the Tickford G52 Showa intake and Jack Roush and Watson Engineering tune parts so no later day Cobra 289 Race style 350 hp engines could get loose. The problems with the stock Cobra 5.0 SVT all started when it was exported for use in the 268 hp Falcon EB GT and 305 and then 248 hp new 5 liter deTomaso. The upper intake , the better Ford Deadly Letter cams and better GT40 heads and the MAF transform ment you could make a factory 350 net flywheel hp with ease. The problem was Ford didnt want to start another horsepower war when the 4.6 and 5.4 and 6.8s were the leading engines. So Ford knobbled the 5.0 SVT. In Australia, constant 268 hp engine with 295 and then 335 hp upgrades from the factory. Problem was just that the better bigger MAF transform rapidly outpaced the stock early single Data link earth ECM. The later Lincoln PID'S and F150 Speed Density computers were great bases. When going MAF, you should consider your stock ECM base wisely. Fords EECIV is very adjustable, but some versions that missed the PID's update are a little bit touchy.

Ford decided to keep the trucks and Lincoln speed density, but those 1990-1992 computers habe some very smart processing up dates.

Its harder to be general with Fords. You just have to do your research. Again, the SVT FoxMustangs missed out on activated real time data PID's, and the basic EECIV is less advanced than its truck and Linclon LSC / Ford Mercury MN12 stablemates.

Brad, talk with decipha. Fords road blocks are simple ones to fix.

Don't fret. Your decisions have all been the right ones.

[xctasy]

For the grand debate, hope this link works. I'm 100% in favor of the stock EECIV. The debate about what is better is like arguing what sort of language, grass or drugs you'd like.

I'm happy in the paddock Ford gave me in 1995. The EECIV is great, but anything 86 to 95 EECIV is cool too. So is a MegaSquirt, PIMP XS plug and play...etc...

See

https://fordsix.com/threads/someone-...8/#post-642159

[xctasy]

Leech Motor sports covers the two issues

https://youtu.be/Xbo5qgDQ1pU

https://youtu.be/4Vlkut2VF5M

[ZephyrEFI]

Yeah, with all I've done towards the existing plan, it would be a shame to start over now.

Although, the Terminator does have one advantage, a new wire harness. That's about the only thing on my car that's still old besides the body itself is the wiring.

I'm going to try to fix the idle more before I take any more steps.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[xctasy]

You'll do that fine. The ISC/IAC holes should have enough adjustment. You are the Asset Manager. Take it back to school, Sir!

If you've got time, Day 1, 2 & 3.

https://youtu.be/dE6NBxhbh4s

https://youtu.be/AwINC1bq0r8

https://youtu.be/33BULPz5Y2c

https://youtu.be/-x9tLZ_Szt4

https://youtu.be/ntrKzCANLfk

https://youtu.be/wdK4RYNcp9E

[xctasy]

Triple check the idle Solenoid control.

See the atmospheric and control ports and what level of csealing they provide Brad.

https://youtu.be/m2pHBHyMx6I

[ZephyrEFI]

Leech Motor sports covers the two issues

https://youtu.be/Xbo5qgDQ1pU

https://youtu.be/4Vlkut2VF5M

I watched the first video here, and you know, it's funny. I've been more focused on dealing with the hardware under the hood. In my mind, these electronics minus the new shortblock and cam ran just fine with my old engine. So it doesn't make sense why it wouldn't now unless I messed something up installing the new engine.

I hadn't considered that there could be a solution in the computer. Honestly, I just didn't know that much about what all you can do in there. All those idle parameters he goes into, I didn't know about any of that. The only thing is, he's talking about a dealing with a pretty radical cam, when I was under the impression the cam I have really shouldn't be that big of a leap vs. stock. I wouldn't think going into the software would be necessary, but the more comfortable I get with it, the more optimistic I am that I can actually do something about this. I didn't even want to plug in the chip until I was sure I'd exhausted all the physical causes, which is probably correct, but I didn't see a way out of the tunnel before, and I do now.

[Ethyl Cat]

Use the EEC ecu but open it up and see if any capacitors have leaked and repair any damaged traces from the leaks. Easy work. If you want help tuning look me up.

If a tuner is locking the ecu in open loop permanently they are not tuners.

Using open loop during the tuning process is common though. Closed loop is reestablished once the tune is completed

[ZephyrEFI]

Use the EEC ecu but open it up and see if any capacitors have leaked and repair any damaged traces from the leaks. Easy work. If you want help tuning look me up.

If a tuner is locking the ecu in open loop permanently they are not tuners.

Using open loop during the tuning process is common though. Closed loop is reestablished once the tune is completed

That's good. I guess it's possible I just misunderstood him, but I guess I don't know! I certainly would prefer using closed loop! This is a car I want to be able to drive a lot. That means considering efficiency and the computer being able to adapt to varying conditions.

The video about the difference between the A9L and X3Z was pretty enlightening too. He makes a point about making sure you're using the factory 24# injectors with the Cobra computer. I'm fairly sure that's what I have. They are the same type as the 19s I replaced them with, not the skinnier ones Ford Racing sells now.

[Ethyl Cat]

Yes the 24 lb injectors with the EV1 style connector not the EV6 they used later.

The injector characteristics are tunable (low slope, high slope, break point, voltage compensation tables, etc) but using the ones the ecu is set up for eliminates chances for error for sure.

[qtrracer]

I have the Holley Terminator X in my 86. The motor is an 8.2 deck stroker with HCI (cam is custom), Accufab 75mm TB and 1.75" mid-length headers, T5. I can say without hesitation, the Holley "self-learn" feature is overstated. First, Holley assumes that the install is flawless i.e., no mechanical or electrical issues. Second, while they do indeed provide "sample" tunes for NA, blown and Nitrous applications for different CI motors, they are general and designed to get the car running. Once the car is running, the self-learn feature can be turned on and it will start "learning." But if there are any errors, the learn feature learns with those errors - it does not correct them.

For example, the Holley TX for Fords calls for fuel pressure to be set at 43# both in the software and on the rail. Unless you have a gauge on the rail or a sensor, and an adjustable regulator, you can't assume the pressure is correct just because it's set in the software - it's not. Moreover, I ran mine with a test gauge on the rail, set it to 43# last summer and have been messing with cold-start and throttle off idle issues since then. Yesterday, I put the Holley fuel pressure sensor on the rail and the hand-held tells me pressure is at 33#. So that may be my idle issue since the software assumes pressure is correct and tunes accordingly. Same with timing, AIC, TPS and so on. All this has to be correct in order for "self-learn" to work optimally. With that said, the TX is very versatile and I've had glimpses of what it's like to be correct (such as mid throttle and cruise).

Bottom line, not plug and play. But not overly complicated either. Sort of like building your first motor - you learn and it seems easy thereafter.

[Jack Hidley]

Brad,

As mentioned above, a competent tuner will force the engine into closed loop while tuning, only so that the EEC isn't trying to trim the a/f ratio and/or make adaptive changes, which would interfere with the tuning process.

If you are interested, I have a Tweecer RT for sale. If you use it with Clint Garrity's EA and BE software, it is very powerful.

I just recapped my A9L, so I have some extra caps left over. If you send me your EEC, I can replace them, to remove them as a possible problem source.

[ZephyrEFI]

Brad,

As mentioned above, a competent tuner will force the engine into closed loop while tuning, only so that the EEC isn't trying to trim the a/f ratio and/or make adaptive changes, which would interfere with the tuning process.

If you are interested, I have a Tweecer RT for sale. If you use it with Clint Garrity's EA and BE software, it is very powerful.

I just recapped my A9L, so I have some extra caps left over. If you send me your EEC, I can replace them, to remove them as a possible problem source.

Actually, I already have a Quarterhorse. I just haven't gotten it out of the box yet. Plus, I haven't secured a laptop I can use for this.

That would be awesome, thank you! PM me your info, and I'll send it to you!