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Thread: 351-c

  1. #1

    Default 351-c

    Hi all,
    Hope everyone's turkey day went well.

    A friend of mine has given me a 351-C four bolt main short block (no heads or intake). Can the four bold Cleveland
    block be converted to a 351 Windsor ...
    Thanks,
    ed

  2. #2

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    Not really. Cleveland is a dry intake, Windsor is wet. There are a lot of differences. The 4 bolt cleveland should bring decent money from Pantera owners and restorers. Best to sell the block and use the money for what you want.

  3. #3
    FEP Power Member richpet's Avatar
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    Agree. A good Cleveland block is worth a few dollars to those that can use them.

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    83 5.0 GT. Quicker than it looks! 10:1 (or just over) 306, Motorsport a332 cam, 140A alt, t5 conv, 8.8 w/ 3.27's, Edel rpm, alum rad, very worked e7's, Holley SA carb, etc... SOLD IT!!!!

    Now an 1981 Granada! .040 over 302, Edel E-street heads... Currently building a 347 because, why not?

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  4. #4

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    Just bought one myself, they are getting few and far between.

  5. #5
    FEP Power Member 4-barrel Mike's Avatar
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    People spend big money converting Windsors into Clevelands (search -> Ford Clevor).

    If it's decent and you're patient, I'd bet you could trade that 4-bolt 351C short block for a nice, running 351W.

    But, of course, YMMV.

    Try Portland C/L for a trade.

    Mike

  6. #6
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    try facebooks "351C/351M/400 & Clevor Parts only"


    and "TMeyer Inc – Precision Automotive Machining & Manufacturing"

    1.wet deck intake and

    2. 400 thou extended crank flange,

    3. different 0.250 "smaller main bearings

    4. and priority oiling changes are just block differences.

    Remember, from 1983 to 2005, the Ford MotorSport SVO block Windsor Cleveland "WCP" engines were made as both Cleveland 9.20 or 9.50 deck, and IIRC, rough machined 17 thou under to 3.983 bore with 17 thou under 0.858" lifter bores on the Windsor Ontario lines with or without the the water pump chest, and the fully balanced 3.5" SVO forged crank was rough machined with smaller 2.75 Cleveland main bearings. All the race NASCAR blocks were downgraded to Cleveland crank spec.


    The block changes...they don't stop you downgrading to Windsor heads and intake. You just have to get a 302 Windsors Tim Meyer Track Boss intake and add some AP-35 Intake Adapter Kits from Price Motorsport.

    BOSS 302's were C9 stamped 351C heads with just the heads cast in water two water passage's blanked off.

    You have to do the same, and blank off the upper intake thermostat housing and radiator hose. You do this











    The Cleveland 351 and the related tall deck 351M and 400's are like small FE or FT engine... without the Y block, and all the extra iron. Its awkward because its presence caused massively difficult planning headaches for Ford's 1977 to 1989 engine program under Henry Ford II and Philip Caldwell. PROCO, Honda, Texaco engine development proved the flat canted valve heads an issue for 87octane that couldn't be easily solved except by knock sensors and extra electronic control. Principally, its 4V heads had dislike for low octane unleaded gas.

    The 351C is a short deck Windsor 351, 9.206 verses 9.469 or 9.500",
    same deck as the 3.8/4.2 Essex 90 V6.

    Fords Mustang and F100 line needed extra production capacity, so its advent in late 1969 was decided at the same time Ford decided to build extra Small Block 302 and 351W engines in other plants.
    Mexico, Chihuahua and
    Canada, Ontario's Windsor plant,

    When strikes happened or production retooling was afoot, the CEPNo1 became a second tier plant. Its tooling for the Cleveland was partly disbanded to Geelong, Victoria Australia in 1975, but damaged in transit, and then sent back to the USA, refurbished, and then inaugurated for exclusive short deck 302C and 351C production, with Al Turner restarting non mass produced NASCAR blocks producing in 1983, after the 1981 V8 plant was shut. According to one source, another run of non producting SVO blocks was made after the last Geelong engine's were made in 1981, and were available locally in Australia till early 1985, and internationally throught Holman Moody until 1987. The last De Tomaso to use the Cleveland was in 1989, the lst of the 1987-1989 Amerisport Pantera CKD (completely knocked down) kits had Windsor 351W truck engines, but the DeTomaso Longchamps and Italian De Tomaso Pantera, it used Australians Cleveland's till 1989.

    The 1971-1983 model years 351M and 400's were build in Cleveland and Windsor till 1982, but sold till 1983, and then the non mass produced SVO Racing blocks were then Windsor built for Jack Roush in 1983 till 2005.

    The 351c begat all the Cleveland spin off engines. The stoker PROCO 351 and 400 Windsor Direct Injection 1976 Detroit show-car engine's.

    The Cleveland was was Fords first modular engine, built on the Y block and Windsor 221-255-260-289-302-351s "Cleveland No 1" engine plants 4.38 bore spacings, The Windsor 351 officially came out six months earlier.

    The inaugural 9.206 deck "SK 1968" Cleveland block was a pilot build for all the great engine parts

    C9 Boss 302 heads351c begat the Boss 302, the Ford 400, the 351M and then the detonating under pump gas issue farily well caused it to become a 302, 351 and 400 2V engine from 1973 onwards.

  7. #7

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    Thanks to all.
    ed

  8. #8

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    I had a 351m in a 77 thunderbird back in the early 90s. nobody was offering to buy that off me... must have had at least 7:1 compression. Everyone hated on them back then too. Nice to see some of the good things people have done with them recently.
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
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  9. #9
    FEP Power Member Jerry peachuer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThunderStruck View Post
    Hi all,
    Hope everyone's turkey day went well.

    A friend of mine has given me a 351-C four bolt main short block (no heads or intake). Can the four bold Cleveland
    block be converted to a 351 Windsor ...
    Thanks,
    ed


    I believe that is a cobra jet block make sure you do your research

  10. #10
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emerygt350 View Post
    I had a 351m in a 77 thunderbird back in the early 90s. nobody was offering to buy that off me... must have had at least 7:1 compression. Everyone hated on them back then too. Nice to see some of the good things people have done with them recently.
    There are a few engines that make 163 hp net and then can take a stock 2V head with mods and make 490 hp. Or a hi ported 4V head and Moldex crank and make 752 hp on a dyno. As Eric the car Guy said. Engines like that only exist in Mercurys, LTDs....or Toyota 2JZEs or VTECH Hondas and LSs. The "335" Clevelands and Modifieds/Midlands ended up as 188 hp 302Cs or lowly 138 hp 351Ms in 1983. Without a turbo, you can at least quadruple the power.

    The only issue is how much power you can make with how little cylinder wall thickness. A Chevy Gen 1 from 1955 to 1986 will have at least 180 thou and sometimes 242 thou of iron at the thrust faces. A Cleveland, as little as 130 before a 30 thou overbore. A post 75 351M or any 400, way over 180 thou again.

    ThunderStruck:-


    These were a convoluted paradigm of Ford giving with one hand on the heads and crank and block, and taking on the oil system and foundry wall thicknesses. So to make an early US plant 351C work, the Windsor heads actually protect the blocks from detonation cracking. Ford killed off the Cleveland and Ms because they knew it would be copied by Chev. The Essex 90 is a six cylinder LS1. The LS1 is a 351C with Windsor heads. If Ford kept on with the Cleveland's, you can bet Chevy and Mopar would have upped the ante with canted valve small blocks. Fords 1973 to 1981 performance wilderness years in the USA was Henry Ford IIs honored promise if focusing on engine economy and emissions and safety. Despite his detractors. Not one cent went into Total Performance after the Yom Kipper War...After 1981 and the return of Edsel B Ford II...Dearborn went Windsor and Cleveland again on its two plants North American plants. Performance was marketed again. The death of the Cleveland as a 351M truck engine with EECIII and just 138 hp...that was all part of HFIIs royal edicts.

    Get your info and peruse a Windsor AFR 185 headed 351C. It will make the same power with less detonation than an iron headed 4V Cleveland. The D1AE heads are still the greatest Ford heads though. Just a little bit harder to manage.

    In the words of John Dillinger. " I can make any car eat my Ford V8s dust".

    The Cleveland is a 445 capable small block that the 7.3 liter Gas Super Duty remodels in todays production.


    But just a little 302 Boss

    https://www.facebook.com/13379028333...74799913787225
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerline Performance Machine
    I got my Boss 302 dynoed today. All factory parts. Carb, intake and cam. Just .030 over pistons. 350 hp @ 6000 rpm. And 330 trq @ 4000 rpm. Definitely can hear the cam kick in.

    Ford threw the game two times. The Tunnel Port 302 at SCAA in 1968

    And every Cleveland, "335" and 351M and 400 from 1973 to 1982. The Cleveland and Boss, Fords biggest issue, what does it do for an encore without starting a HP war?

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