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  1. #1

    Default Brake Booster and master cylinder

    I have a question regarding a 1995 sn95 rear disc swap into a 1980 mustang. I had in there before a 90 rear end with 90 brake booster and master cylinder. Ive read different reports that you may not need to upgrade the brake booster and mc and just get an adjustable proportioning valve, Is this true?

  2. #2
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    The booster "upgrade" is generally not needed in my experience. Assuming that your booster is functional and in good condition. The M/C swap may or may not be needed depending on your preference and which SN95 brakes you use. My .02 for what it's worth is to leave the booster and M/C, gut your existing proportioning valve and install the aftermarket adjustable in the line going to the rear brakes. Install your SN95 rear disc swap and see how everything works and how the brake pedal "feels" to you and your liking. Then make changes or adjustments from there. Hope that helps!
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
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  3. #3

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    Thanks appreciate the feedback, Ill roll with it like that then and go from there

  4. #4
    FEP Power Member qtrracer's Avatar
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    Pedal feel is personal taste. But the system should be matched so that the stock components can function properly. If using the stock booster and M/C, and assuming a 38mm rear caliper and 10.5" unvented discs, the minimum up front should be a stock 87+ 66mm caliper and 11" discs. Is that what you are using or are you swapping to all sn pieces?

  5. #5

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    up front im using 1995 spindles with pbr dual piston calipers and in the back im swapping in a complete 1995 stock gt rear end

  6. #6

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    Trey has some good food for thought... At first, I did the "SN95" front brakes (Red Bullitt calipers and 13" rotors) with my stock '86 drums, stock MC, and stock booster. Braking performance was substantially improved and the pedal effort was more than acceptable. Shortly after that, I did the rear disc conversion and gutted the prop valve and installed the adjustable rear bias valve. Pedal effort increased, but it wasn't unacceptable to me, but not how I'd like it for a street car. Braking performance with the rear disc improved further - it's more balanced. Fairly easy to lock up the brakes if you jump on the pedal hard, but not like the original '86 brakes, which isn't a bad thing.

    I purchased a hydro-boost setup which I'm going to install as that is the ultimate!
    Last edited by Quikk86; 11-09-2020 at 10:18 PM.
    Mark

    1986 GT Hatchback (2R): 5spd, TFS FAC 170s, TFS Stage 2 Cam, Vortech SQ S-Trim, MM Suspension, SN95 5-lug conversion w/Fox 5-lug rear axles, 3.73's, 13" / 11.65" brakes, Moates QuarterHorse
    '88 LX 5.0
    '22 GT500

  7. #7

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    Which year hydro booster did you buy?
    79 Zephyr, 4.6L 4v/4r70w swap, with team z front and rear suspension, 8.8 and upgraded brakes and coil overs. Running Holley Terminator X Max.

  8. #8

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    I went with the 99-04 version (no Traction Control version) and picked up the MM adapter kit which is a MUST, it makes the conversion much easier. I also grabbed the brake lines as well

    https://www.maximummotorsports.com/H...ang-P1618.aspx

    https://www.maximummotorsports.com/H...ang-P1622.aspx
    Mark

    1986 GT Hatchback (2R): 5spd, TFS FAC 170s, TFS Stage 2 Cam, Vortech SQ S-Trim, MM Suspension, SN95 5-lug conversion w/Fox 5-lug rear axles, 3.73's, 13" / 11.65" brakes, Moates QuarterHorse
    '88 LX 5.0
    '22 GT500

  9. #9
    FEP Senior Member OX1's Avatar
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    Some pics of conversions to that same HB on my LTD and 70 bronco.

    LTD

    http://luxjo.supermotors.net/DADSLTD/HYDROBOOST/

    SAG pump on LTD

    http://luxjo.supermotors.net/DADSLTD/SAG%20PUMP/

    70 Bronco (not FOX specific, but shows some adapters to convert to flare ports on HB and use flare to AN adapters, etc......)

    http://luxjo.supermotors.net/70%20EB...%20HYDROBOOST/
    86 Capri, 5.0, 5Spd, A9L QH/BE, 47 lb Inj PMAS 3" MAF, Single T44 Turbo, Front Mount IC, TW170,
    Stock Cam, Explr Intake/TB, 1.7 Rockers, CF dual friction clutch, 3" DP, 2.5" full Exh, 3.27, 11.932 @ 115.78
    84 LTD, 331-10:1, TW170/Exprl Intake, 47 lbs inj/80 mm LMAF, Full Duals, Quarterhorse, Vortech 7PSI, Lentech AOD, 5 lug Mk VII brakes/rear, Eibach Sway bars, Cobra HB (dads ride, but I fix it )

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quikk86 View Post
    I went with the 99-04 version (no Traction Control version) and picked up the MM adapter kit which is a MUST, it makes the conversion much easier. I also grabbed the brake lines as well

    https://www.maximummotorsports.com/H...ang-P1618.aspx

    https://www.maximummotorsports.com/H...ang-P1622.aspx
    Nice!
    I have the same setup, the LMR kit is a quality piece for sure.
    79 Zephyr, 4.6L 4v/4r70w swap, with team z front and rear suspension, 8.8 and upgraded brakes and coil overs. Running Holley Terminator X Max.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by OX1 View Post
    Some pics of conversions to that same HB on my LTD and 70 bronco.

    LTD

    http://luxjo.supermotors.net/DADSLTD/HYDROBOOST/

    SAG pump on LTD

    http://luxjo.supermotors.net/DADSLTD/SAG%20PUMP/

    70 Bronco (not FOX specific, but shows some adapters to convert to flare ports on HB and use flare to AN adapters, etc......)

    http://luxjo.supermotors.net/70%20EB...%20HYDROBOOST/
    Nice thanks for sharing!

    Is the power steering bracket for the SAG pump a custom deal? What SAG pump is that?
    Mark

    1986 GT Hatchback (2R): 5spd, TFS FAC 170s, TFS Stage 2 Cam, Vortech SQ S-Trim, MM Suspension, SN95 5-lug conversion w/Fox 5-lug rear axles, 3.73's, 13" / 11.65" brakes, Moates QuarterHorse
    '88 LX 5.0
    '22 GT500

  12. #12
    FEP Senior Member OX1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quikk86 View Post
    Nice thanks for sharing!

    Is the power steering bracket for the SAG pump a custom deal? What SAG pump is that?
    Bracket is from a classic bronco vender called Wild Horses. IIRC, I think it was this one. https://www.wildhorses4x4.com/produc...xoCouQQAvD_BwE It fits in place of the bracket used with Ford pump in LTD LX's and some other early 4 eyes with throttle body EFI V-8's (that bracket setup allows you to use same AC compressor that port injection V-8's used).

    Pump is from 76 Lincoln (which had hydroboost stock), dual return. Bracket needs light mods to clear larger reservoir that came on that sag pump and in my case, pump needed to be spaced forward some to get pulley to line up 100%
    Last edited by OX1; 11-11-2020 at 05:22 PM.
    86 Capri, 5.0, 5Spd, A9L QH/BE, 47 lb Inj PMAS 3" MAF, Single T44 Turbo, Front Mount IC, TW170,
    Stock Cam, Explr Intake/TB, 1.7 Rockers, CF dual friction clutch, 3" DP, 2.5" full Exh, 3.27, 11.932 @ 115.78
    84 LTD, 331-10:1, TW170/Exprl Intake, 47 lbs inj/80 mm LMAF, Full Duals, Quarterhorse, Vortech 7PSI, Lentech AOD, 5 lug Mk VII brakes/rear, Eibach Sway bars, Cobra HB (dads ride, but I fix it )

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by OX1 View Post
    Bracket is from a classic bronco vender called Wild Horses. IIRC, I think it was this one. https://www.wildhorses4x4.com/produc...xoCouQQAvD_BwE It fits in place of the bracket used with Ford pump in LTD LX's and some other early 4 eyes with throttle body EFI V-8's (that bracket setup allows you to use same AC compressor that port injection V-8's used).

    Pump is from 76 Lincoln (which had hydroboost stock), dual return. Bracket needs light mods to clear larger reservoir that came on that sag pump and in my case, pump needed to be spaced forward some to get pulley to line up 100%
    Great information, thank you! Do you recommend the sag pump with hydroboost over a stock style 86-93 Mustang pump?
    Mark

    1986 GT Hatchback (2R): 5spd, TFS FAC 170s, TFS Stage 2 Cam, Vortech SQ S-Trim, MM Suspension, SN95 5-lug conversion w/Fox 5-lug rear axles, 3.73's, 13" / 11.65" brakes, Moates QuarterHorse
    '88 LX 5.0
    '22 GT500

  14. #14
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Personally I’d go factory booster and an M1525 1” bore master cylinder with SN brakes. It reduces pedal travel and makes it a bit firmer which is what I prefer

    works great with SN95 brands. Works great with stock foxbody brakes too

  15. #15
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Add an adjustable rear proportioning valve and gut the original one

  16. #16
    FEP Power Member qtrracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quikk86 View Post
    Great information, thank you! Do you recommend the sag pump with hydroboost over a stock style 86-93 Mustang pump?
    Just an FYI. I wanted to do the SAG pump conversion on my 86 using that same adaptor and ran the idea past the tech guys at MM. Jack Hidley says that the SAG pump is not designed for a rack and pinon which means that it produces too much pressure. So I asked if reducing the pressure with a reducer or similar obstruction would work. He said not unless the reducer was some high end piece that is designed to convert the pressure necessary for a R&P.

    Eventually, I'll do an EPAS system.

  17. #17
    FEP Senior Member OX1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qtrracer View Post
    Just an FYI. I wanted to do the SAG pump conversion on my 86 using that same adaptor and ran the idea past the tech guys at MM. Jack Hidley says that the SAG pump is not designed for a rack and pinon which means that it produces too much pressure. So I asked if reducing the pressure with a reducer or similar obstruction would work. He said not unless the reducer was some high end piece that is designed to convert the pressure necessary for a R&P.

    Eventually, I'll do an EPAS system.
    1. 1986 shop manual shows stock ford pump runs between 950 and 1230 PSI (relief pressures).



    2. Typical sag pumps run 900-1200, just like fox body mustang pumps

    "Above are flow pistons from stock setups.
    From left to right
    Piston #1 and #2 are approximately 1100~1200 PSI
    Piston #3 is a 1050~1100 PSI
    Piston #4 is a 900~1000 PSIs right around 1000."

    http://www.gmtruckcentral.com/articl...rsteeringmods/

    3. GM first used rack and pinion on citation in 1980, and it had a sag pump.

    "AMC used rack and pinion in their 1975 and up Pacers, but GM and Chrysler did not begin their use until the early Eighties X-bodies and K-Cars."

    https://www.hemmings.com/stories/art...inion-steering

    https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...ring+pump,7380

    4. Hydroboost setups get full PS pressure to HB first, so they typically up pressure/flow in a pump made for HB, to
    make sure steering pressure/flow does not suffer.

    5. They may have been thinking about mustang II rack, which operates @ 700-800 PSI.
    https://www.hotrodders.com/threads/h...nd%20800%20psi.

    6. They make lower pressure valves for sag pumps

    https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Tuff-...%20(Feb28_2020)

    Also, HB pump with 2000 Stang HB has been in my fox body for 12 years now, no leaks in rack.
    (I probably would not use a sag pump designed for HB, on a non HB setup, but plenty of sag pumps avail that didn't have HB)
    86 Capri, 5.0, 5Spd, A9L QH/BE, 47 lb Inj PMAS 3" MAF, Single T44 Turbo, Front Mount IC, TW170,
    Stock Cam, Explr Intake/TB, 1.7 Rockers, CF dual friction clutch, 3" DP, 2.5" full Exh, 3.27, 11.932 @ 115.78
    84 LTD, 331-10:1, TW170/Exprl Intake, 47 lbs inj/80 mm LMAF, Full Duals, Quarterhorse, Vortech 7PSI, Lentech AOD, 5 lug Mk VII brakes/rear, Eibach Sway bars, Cobra HB (dads ride, but I fix it )

  18. #18
    FEP Senior Member OX1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quikk86 View Post
    Great information, thank you! Do you recommend the sag pump with hydroboost over a stock style 86-93 Mustang pump?
    Yes, the Ford pumps whine, sometimes even after a fresh rebuild.
    86 Capri, 5.0, 5Spd, A9L QH/BE, 47 lb Inj PMAS 3" MAF, Single T44 Turbo, Front Mount IC, TW170,
    Stock Cam, Explr Intake/TB, 1.7 Rockers, CF dual friction clutch, 3" DP, 2.5" full Exh, 3.27, 11.932 @ 115.78
    84 LTD, 331-10:1, TW170/Exprl Intake, 47 lbs inj/80 mm LMAF, Full Duals, Quarterhorse, Vortech 7PSI, Lentech AOD, 5 lug Mk VII brakes/rear, Eibach Sway bars, Cobra HB (dads ride, but I fix it )

  19. #19
    FEP Power Member qtrracer's Avatar
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    It's not just the pressure of the SAG pump. The Bronco adaptor uses a SAG pump not designed for a R&P. But then I'm not a PS expert; I just ask for help and recommendations. Warnings and recommendations from Jack Hidley I take to the bank.
    Last edited by qtrracer; 04-13-2021 at 07:11 PM.

  20. #20
    FEP Senior Member OX1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qtrracer View Post
    It's not just the pressure of the SAG pump. The Bronco adaptor uses a SAG pump not designed for a R&P. But then I'm not a PS expert; I just ask for help and recommendations. Warnings and recommendations from Jack Hidley I take to the bank.
    Going to have to give me a bit more information on how you (or he) arrived at these conclusions.
    (IE, is it high RPM or road racing that makes him think it is an issue, etc...). Otherwise, all I'm hearing is "because I said so".

    And yes, as previously mentioned, my HB pump did not fit perfectly in that bracket (the reservoir is larger than most sag pumps, due to running your brakes and steering). I had to mod it a bit and space it back with some washers to get perfect pulley alignment.
    Last edited by OX1; 04-14-2021 at 04:54 AM.
    86 Capri, 5.0, 5Spd, A9L QH/BE, 47 lb Inj PMAS 3" MAF, Single T44 Turbo, Front Mount IC, TW170,
    Stock Cam, Explr Intake/TB, 1.7 Rockers, CF dual friction clutch, 3" DP, 2.5" full Exh, 3.27, 11.932 @ 115.78
    84 LTD, 331-10:1, TW170/Exprl Intake, 47 lbs inj/80 mm LMAF, Full Duals, Quarterhorse, Vortech 7PSI, Lentech AOD, 5 lug Mk VII brakes/rear, Eibach Sway bars, Cobra HB (dads ride, but I fix it )

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