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Thread: Losing my mind

  1. #1

    Default Losing my mind

    Hopefully somebody here can help me out because I'm losing my mind haha. so i have a very well taken care of 86 mustang gt 5speed (check out my instagram for pics shutthefrontdoor86) and i have been having this problem where the car will drive awesome till it heats up to 200F and then it will shut off, then after about 15mins its fine untill it reaches 200F again. i researched and try to diagnosed as best i could and replaced Ignition control module and replaced the oid blaster coil with a new one....No luck still the same problem also changed the Cap, Rotor and plugs as well...no luck. If somebody here has had this same problem or can give me ANY incite I would greatly appreciate it!!!

  2. #2

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    So you replaced the module, did you replace the pickup in the distributor? They both act the same as they fail.

    Kenny

  3. #3

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    Not to sure what the pickup is? so i guess not haha. Could you give me more info please

  4. #4
    FEP Power Member 87gtVIC's Avatar
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    It is deep in the dizzy under the rotor. Kinda difficult to replace so many spring for a new distributor.

    "Pickup" is used because it is like a hall effect sensor.

  5. #5
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Ford is really clever, but TFi has some major issues because its not understood well. It was born as an external "Hall" crank sensor EECIII but DuraSpark Brown Box DS II system in the 5.0 CFi /5.8/6.6liter 2-bbl 1980-1984 Lincolns, 83-84 Mercury Cougars's and 83-84 CA Tbirds and some/most 351M and 400 California Bronco's and F-trucks and E-vans.

    Just single synchronized Spark only system .






    Since the harmonic balancer is 6-3/4" on everything, the 80-84, external D2-II Crank triggered parts can be used to fix up a TFi that isn't Dual Synch.


    But in 1984, Ford Had a Better Idea


    TFi = Thick Film Ignition

    PIP = Profile Ignition Pickup, the sensor inside the distributor.

    The PIP system uses a Hall cell magnetic sensor, which is a prox sensor, a distance ranging device that generates a reference and zero voltage as the Shutter Wheel passes between it and the Magnet. It is three parts.

    TFi's are Dual Synch for Sequential Injection 5.0's, but Single Synch Bank fire on 5.0/5.8 trucks till about 1995. They are not the same. The one year only 84.5 to 85 Automatic TFi was similarly unique.

    Get the wrong parts not up to quality, and the sensor will stop transmitting.

    Replacement parts have a terrible reputation. Ford OEM, reasonable, although they too are suffering from some approved supplier problems.


    If the distributor is not forming a Square wave to the Injectors and another modified square wave to the SPOUT , the car will break down at various RPMs.

    If its not working, then you have to get an aftermarket Hall Sensor and you must check the PIP Shutter wheel for magnetic quality and the spacing of the narrow shutter.





    later Ford 5.0 distributors are solid, no mechanical or vacuum advance.
    Just a simple rotor with PIP gates and a Hall Effect sensor.
    The signal should be stable (Without Scatter)





    the module is this






    the shutter wheel that forms the PIP signal is this










    the shutter wheel triggers a square wave electrical signal using the Hall Effect sensor








    See https://www.w8ji.com/distributor_stabbing.htm



    Quote Originally Posted by Drag Radial Performance
    Here's a Picoscope waveform of what Ford TFI ignition signals look like. The blue signal is the PIP sensor inside the distributor, short for Profile Ignition Pickup. This is called the PIP signal, and it's how the distributor tells the ignition module and the PCM when a cylinder is at 10 degrees before Top Dead Center. One out of every 8 pulses is narrower than the other 7 are. This is called Signature PIP, and represents Cylinder #1 is at 10 degrees before TDC.
    Once the PCM knows which cylinder is #1, it can fire injector #1 at the correct time. To fire the other 7 injectors, it doesn't need a special cylinder identification. The PCM just counts from 1 to 8 in the firing order - 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8.
    The green signal is called SPOUT, short for SPark OUTput. The computer receives the PIP signal, modifies the timing of this signal to reflect the ignition advance timing it wants the coil to fire at, and sends this modified signal back to the ignition module. The ignition module then fires the coil based on this SPOUT signal.
    If the SPOUT signal is not present, the ignition module creates it's own SPOUT signal that is identical to the PIP signal, and fires the coil based on that instead. This is what happens when either the PCM loses communication with the ignition module, or when you unplug the SPOUT connector to set your timing. Unplugging SPOUT literally cuts the wire going from the PCM to the ignition module.
    The notches you see in the top of the PIP and SPOUT signals are reflections of the one signal's edge in the other. Presence of these notches indicates the ignition module is receiving a SPOUT signal OK. The TFI ignition system can be standalone. It does not need the PCM in order to fire the coil. It only needs the PCM to alter the timing of the coil firing, to create the proper ignition advance. Without the PCM, the ignition will fire at 10 degrees BTDC every time, if that's where your base timing is set to.
    These ignition signal waveforms were captured using a Picoscope 4423 4 channel digital storage oscilloscope. It's basically the world's fastest graphing voltmeter. Each one of these blue PIP signals lasts for about 11.32 milliseconds at an idle speed of 672 RPM. A typical voltmeter will only update about 4 times per second, or once every 250 milliseconds, which is nowhere near fast enough to capture these events.
    At 672 RPM, one PIP signal lasts about 11.32 milliseconds, or 11/1,000 of a second. At 6,000 RPM, one PIP signal will last for approximately 1.25 milliseconds, or 1/1,000 of a second. A scope could capture that as if it were in slow motion. This scope can measure signals as fast as 1/2 of one nanosecond. Nothing gets past this scope. If you're at 6,000 RPM and one single PIP signal is missing, causing one cylinder to misfire one time, a scope can catch it in the act, which is why a scope is perfect for diagnostics.
    At Drag Radial Performance, we specialize in these classic 5.0L Mustangs. Despite their age, we're moving the hobby forward in technology, picking up where these cars were left off 20 years ago, and applying today's technology in tuning and diagnostics to them. It's a great time to be rolling in a 5.0!








  6. #6

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    The new Ignition Control Module was a Ford Motorcraft one and the new Coil was MSD

  7. #7

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    Hi
    If it kills engine at 200F? Is there an over heating sender (kill switch) that could be bad causeing it to kill the engine at 200F?
    ed
    Last edited by ThunderStruck; 10-06-2020 at 05:43 PM.

  8. #8

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    Replace the PIP in the dizzy, it'll require removing gear and shaft.

    My car did the same thing over 10 years ago. Replaced the PIP with a Motorcraft part and haven't had an issue since.
    Jeremiah

    1986 Mustang GT 5spd, 3.27's
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  9. #9

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    i not to sure ? what is a kill switch?

  10. #10
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    There is no "kill switch" on the SEFI 5.0. Besides the OEM thermostat was 195 degrees, so 200 degrees operating temperature is well within range for the 5.0. The early cars don't have the sophistication of later models with many of the "limp home" modes when things go wrong. As mentioned above, most likely an ignition issue inside the distributor. Replacing the PIP is probably the best and most cost effective option at this point. Good Luck!
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

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  11. #11

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    thanks you guys have been great, i might go to rockauto and just grab a new distributor and hope this will fix it

  12. #12

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    That would be the easiest method. Replacing the PIP / Internal Pickup is a bit of a job, not hard, but tedious. I don't think you will save much money replacing it, rather than getting another distributor.

    Kenny

  13. #13
    FEP Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyFourEye View Post
    thanks you guys have been great, i might go to rockauto and just grab a new distributor and hope this will fix it
    I did the exact same thing on my car a few years ago after it was exhibiting the same symptoms. New TFI and coil did not resolve the issue. I lucked out and RockAuto had a new Motorcraft distributor for less than some of the rebuilds. I did relocate my TFI module to the drivers fender when I swapped the distributor just for added insurance.
    '89 XR-7 5 Speed
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  14. #14
    FEP Power Member Broncojunkie's Avatar
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    I've had good luck with the NAPA distributors. They're not too pricey.
    Last edited by Broncojunkie; 10-09-2020 at 07:48 AM.
    79 Pace Car - 331, t5
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  15. #15
    FEP Senior Member liv2roc's Avatar
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    my 84 was doing something like that but its a carb not fi. if I turned my off it would not restart til it cooled off. it was the distributor.

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