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Thread: EECIV gurus?

  1. #26
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    If you’re going through the work of an injector swap, switch to a 4 or 6 hole EV6 style injector. Ford Racing makes EV1 to EV6 adapters that mane this an easy switch

    if you go to 24’s or 30’s, etc - make sure your tune matches. Fuel pressure tactics only solve so much

  2. #27
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Exactly. SD and 24s dont work generally, 21s do. Its a VE table and fuel clip thing. However, if the 19s are defective, then 24s will clear up a 4000 rpm spray pattern defect. Its the rolling idle and overloading of the Keep Alive Memory tables with bigger injectors you have to worry about. The 5.8 truck bank fire speed density computer can be easily overloaded if biggerbinjectors are used and the computer then has to constantly re trim the fuel to the VE table. Same with the SD SEFI 5.0.

  3. #28
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Would be interesting to see how far off a 21 is on a modded motor (throttlebody and intake) as airflow increases. 19’s get chronically lean without a bump in fuel pressure which suggests the benefit of a slightly larger injector. I haven’t researched 21’s in that type of application before
    Last edited by erratic50; 10-01-2020 at 10:16 AM.

  4. #29
    FEP Power Member mcb82gt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy View Post
    Yep, although 21s in good shape will be perfect.
    What cars had the 21lb injectors in them? Or is it a aftermarket thing?
    Mike

    Now stang-less.

    88 Cougar 5.0

  5. #30

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    Besides all the suggestions above, double & triple check your grounds.

    I had the exact same issue on my '86 coupe. Would cut out under load, but idle and rev up fine in neutral. This was after an engine swap with lots of new parts.

    Turned out I'd forgotten to replace the ground wire on the back of the head to firewall. Once this was replaced, all was fine. Hopefully it's something simple like that!
    84.5 GT Convertible Build Thread
    86 LX Coupe

  6. #31
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcb82gt View Post
    What cars had the 21lb injectors in them? Or is it a aftermarket thing?
    Speedway and Racetronic supply them, 150-121 ex Accel and Holley. EV1's. Im guessing an unlisted whitebox Bosch 0280 subcode work-a-like that fixes a common problem.

    ="21+pound+Bosch+injectors.&qsubts=1601578522947&s ource"= Racetech and Speedway
    See

  7. #32

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    You didn't really answer the previous post asking about the computers capacitors being in good shape. They can cause all sorts of tuning issues and causing people to throw parts at a problem with seemingly no change. 3
    Black 1985 GT: 408w, in the 6's in the 1/8 mile
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  8. #33
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Yes. Its a problem.It was known in 1984 that low reference voltage figures were most likely to take and EECIV down. Its a 5 v reference voltage data logger for about 12 systems of varying degrees of importance. I have used the same suppliers boards in my civil engineering work; and the US accredited service personel in Auckland always check the circiut board for leaking capcitors. The CPU can work around the periodic failures of 1 to 3 capacitors, but the computer algorithims specified in the code have to do a repeat round, and that happens at varying times.

  9. #34
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    Sounds like ignition to me. When ever you get an engine that seems like your hitting a rev limiter, it's most likely ignition. My first guess would be ignition coil, then TFI module or pick up module. An engine going lean and falling on it's face is a different feel than a ignition limiter feel.

  10. #35

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    Caps on the board *look* fine and are not leaking. The 24s did NOT clear the issue up. I left the tune as pass through on them, just pulling idle fuel, as that is an ok starting point with the added airflow here. I just bought a new distributor and we'll see if that changes anything. It's still feels more like ignition breakup to me than fuel starvation but, it could be more than one failure mode. ALL grounds in the system are hooked up to clean metal.

  11. #36
    FEP Power Member 87gtVIC's Avatar
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    If you are not already a member of the corral and you are okay with being berated there is an extremely knowledgeable short tempered member that can definitely help you out with issues like these. Indy2000 and he is no BS.

  12. #37
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 87gtVIC View Post
    If you are not already a member of the corral and you are okay with being berated there is an extremely knowledgeable short tempered member that can definitely help you out with issues like these. Indy2000 and he is no BS.
    Just a note to 87gtVIC and especially 4eyedblind
    He's awesome.


    And an apology to 4eyedblind


    Lota words here.


    Just remember, for the SD CFi 5.0 for 1984 and 1985 5.0 AOD's, its limits are changes to the total VE Table. If you go out side the range on Head, Cam or Intake and Exhaust combinations that exceeds to fuel and timing bases, the computer wont cope.

    The whole system is brought back to one thing....that fuel clip and Keep Alive memory correction. Been down this road before with SD CFi 5.0 AOD's. emery's the example of just a literature search from trustworthy sources who actually know what different combinations triggered bad behavior. The ragged limit with SD SEFi is similar, but you now have a tighter fuel clip and more memory to swing things, with known fuel sequencing issues.

    My experience is only speed density. Corvette Cross Fire's, EECIV CFi and Port 3.9/4.0 Falcon sixes, Vane meter EECIV 4.1 in line sixes. Ported heads with extra lift, larger Crow cams and headers with stupid large single exhausts, we were all told by Australian Street Machines Kevin Bartlett that the VE and ignition ramps cannot be improved beyond a 25% factory hp. Any time you go past that, you have to bring the VE back down, unless you can data log and amend the fuel tables.

    People come here not because FEP's collective advice is any better than anyone else's forums, but because since the Speed Density Elephant in the Room is VE, we don't talk about it. To massage the ego.

    Sometimes, you have to scoot around issues and massage ego's.

    I use other peoples testimonies to validate what Factory Group E and Group A sedan racers found from 1988 to 1997. I got told this by two Factory Ford engineer's. Anytime someone wanted to go off the Speed Density 5.0 or 5.8 build list, (Watson Engineering and Roush Performance did a factory 305 hp SD and non SD MAF calibration in 1990 on an Australian EA Falcon)



    , THEN our GM/Chevy guys would just rip out EECIV and punch in a Delco P4 fix the sh!+ up.

    Well before Brian Wolfe was running 10s with stock speed density,
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O16JYTENjw


    Ford Australia payed Roush to do our EA GT 351. EECIV, EFI SEFFI. SD eventually wasn't used.



    The 1988 Two door Falcon EA Sony Scorcher, it took 10 years to sort out a working 335 hp net 5.0 stock stroke Windsor with a 80mm throttle body. K-mac suspension, imported Edelbrock heads and intake, 5 speed Tremec gear box, Modified to a 2door coupe shown in 1988 by Roman Automotive, chrome 17'' ROH wheels, cold air induction and the stereo, Won prizes at Summer Nats 1999.






    The hailstorm of "crapaoyla" that ensued over EECIV verses AC Delco's Cal Pack P4, and why Fords Extreme Edge EECIV wasn't used got the absolute best responses from my Chevy Off-road and Marine idol Sam Blumstein. He stepped out the critic's who knew nothing about Engine Management Systems. As a kid, I saw that people enjoy being knowledge brokers, and I was lucky enough to have a trained Mustang Chassis dyno operator to wade through all this Horsepower of EFI verses carb stuff, and it was Aston Martin who used SD EFi, and then Mechanical Port Fi, and then ditched it for Weber Carbs.

    Aston Martin, GT40/ Mirage and Porsche Le Mans engineer John Wyer said the carbed post 1973engines ran better than any of the fuel injected ones did.

    After the 37 horsepower crap from Tickford performance in Australia, which was exactly the same snake oil fed to the press in 1977 by the same person who belt fed it in 1992 over the very slow Falcon EB GT auto, I'm about done with the Fuel Injected snake oil.







    I'm not a knowledge broker. I reveal my sources. But when a Ford Engineer says things in confidence, then I have to validate my statements with other info from other sources. That's why I'm wordy. But you get the sources, and the bit I water down, that's the very bit you needed.


    Good fortune with nailing the problem.

  13. #38
    FEP Power Member 87gtVIC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy View Post
    Just a note to 87gtVIC and especially 4eyedblind
    He's awesome.

    I definitely believe he is. He rubs many the wrong way but is really helpful if one is interested in helping themselves. He will get your problem resolved. Just do what he asks.

  14. #39

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    Since I'm using the Interceptor 2, I should be able to stay within the VE expectations? The OE computer thinks it's feeding one thing but the Interceptor is taking the values for that, changing the values delivered to the fuel injectors and TFI based on what I set it at.

    I hear ya on the egos and the Corral being a bit of a cess pit that covers meaningful knowledge a lot of the time.

    I got a new dizzy cheap on the way so, I'll stab that in there and see what happens. It definitely doesn't like the multi hole 24s for now. Rolling idle a bit, obviously no cure for the stuttering and layover. I also unplugged the alternator wiring and ran it on battery in case there is something weird there and did a vacuum check for soft valve springs. It passed both tests fine.

    Thanks again, folks. This thing is sapping my morale. I just want it to run decently. Doesn't need to make 400 hp, just run decent.
    Last edited by 4eyedblind; 10-10-2020 at 08:48 AM.

  15. #40
    FEP Senior Member OX1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erratic50 View Post
    Had the same problem on my sons 86GT

    it was a piece of crap MSD rotor in the distributor! Toss it!

    lift the cap and inspect it. Is the wear pattern circular or oblong?

    Get a Motorcraft cap and rotor
    Along those lines. What TFI module are you running? My dads LTD had hot start issues and I tired all kinds of
    "new" TFI's, including all kinds of aftermarket one's, remote setups, and even a new "Motorcraft" one (made in china now).
    Ended up going back to a 3.8 V6 one from 1984 and that runs best.
    86 Capri, 5.0, 5Spd, A9L QH/BE, 47 lb Inj PMAS 3" MAF, Single T44 Turbo, Front Mount IC, TW170,
    Stock Cam, Explr Intake/TB, 1.7 Rockers, CF dual friction clutch, 3" DP, 2.5" full Exh, 3.27, 11.932 @ 115.78
    84 LTD, 331-10:1, TW170/Exprl Intake, 47 lbs inj/80 mm LMAF, Full Duals, Quarterhorse, Vortech 7PSI, Lentech AOD, 5 lug Mk VII brakes/rear, Eibach Sway bars, Cobra HB (dads ride, but I fix it )

  16. #41

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    OEM Motorcraft TFI and dizzy, unknown mileage. The whole dizzy looks like stock 88 and the car it came out of had 270,000 km on it. Motor is rebuilt, with .040 Speed Pro forged pistons in so, the dizzy parts MAY have been changed at some point but, no way to know. I'm going to throw a new distributor in there and see what happens. It's clearly sparking vigorously when I pop leads off plugs with engine running but, no way to do that at high rpm, obviously.

  17. #42
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    What are the plugs gapped too? Are they too large? That will cause an engine to break up.

  18. #43
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    Default Another question

    Also you mention the Crane Interceptor. Have you tried to run the engine with the Interceptor removed completely from the car? It may be a wire problem between the two systems.

    Is the engine able to free rev above the 4k RPM limit that you see under load, while in neutral ?
    Last edited by dynodon64; 10-17-2020 at 08:28 PM. Reason: add more text

  19. #44

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    Plugs are not gapped large but, not too small either. They are all at the gap set by the manufacturer and verified the same, Autolite 3924s.

    Yes, I did run it off the regular EEC, with no change....and no, it staggered and stuttered, even off load.

    I did, however, just buck up and install a new distributor, to replace the 277km stocker in there. This took all the slack out of the existing one and it SEEMS to be better now, at least it revs better no load. I think there might be dizzy gear wear here. There is marked back and forth movement at the rotor, as I mentioned earlier, a couple degrees. The replacement one is completely immobile.

    I really don't like how it starts and runs on the multi-hole 24s, even with the fuel trimmed. It's just not as smooth and the idle rolls a bit on warmup. I think I might stab the 19s back in with a regulator crush to push the pressure up and them trim them back with the Interceptor for low load, light throttle.

  20. #45

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    The crush was done this morning and deadhead pressure at the reg is is now 65, which should make 19s flow like 24s. I'll have to pull fuel out at low load, idle, obviously and there is a limit to how much you can shorten the pulsewidth (or lengthen it, as well). We shall see what happens.
    Last edited by 4eyedblind; 10-21-2020 at 01:59 PM.

  21. #46
    FEP Senior Member OX1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4eyedblind View Post
    OEM Motorcraft TFI and dizzy, unknown mileage. The whole dizzy looks like stock 88 and the car it came out of had 270,000 km on it. Motor is rebuilt, with .040 Speed Pro forged pistons in so, the dizzy parts MAY have been changed at some point but, no way to know. I'm going to throw a new distributor in there and see what happens. It's clearly sparking vigorously when I pop leads off plugs with engine running but, no way to do that at high rpm, obviously.
    I might still pull TFI and test it.

    http://www.myo-p.com/Ford-EEC/EEC%20...eshooting.html

    The only other thing I can think of is the harness itself.
    If original, have you wrung it out, especially ign circuits.

    I had a weird hot no start on my dads LTD. Not your issue, but it turned out
    EEC was getting about a .13 voltage loss from battery to EEC, and that was
    causing my issue. Not your issue, but another thought, like maybe voltage drop
    to coil under higher load, etc...
    Last edited by OX1; 10-21-2020 at 03:01 PM.
    86 Capri, 5.0, 5Spd, A9L QH/BE, 47 lb Inj PMAS 3" MAF, Single T44 Turbo, Front Mount IC, TW170,
    Stock Cam, Explr Intake/TB, 1.7 Rockers, CF dual friction clutch, 3" DP, 2.5" full Exh, 3.27, 11.932 @ 115.78
    84 LTD, 331-10:1, TW170/Exprl Intake, 47 lbs inj/80 mm LMAF, Full Duals, Quarterhorse, Vortech 7PSI, Lentech AOD, 5 lug Mk VII brakes/rear, Eibach Sway bars, Cobra HB (dads ride, but I fix it )

  22. #47

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    Replacement dizzy seems to have helped. 19s back in with a reg crush. Will road test this weekend, weather permitting! It actually ran really well with the oem dizzy at low load on the 19s and stock dizzy...it just got completely confused at 4000 rpm, any throttle angle. The dizzy gear had some significant wear, which won't help and maybe a tired PIP or TFI in the dizzy. It would spark really well at testing in the driveway but, it's hard to test high rpm that way.

  23. #48

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    Oops...guess I squashed it too hard. Fired the car and it's running at nearly 90 psi at idle so...I guess I gotta buy an adjustable regulator now, lol.

  24. #49
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Oh wow ..... 90 psi. Lol. Stuff boost reference regulators and blown fuel lines dream of! Fire hazard for sure.

    Napa sells clamps to re-enforce the spring lock joints. Well worth the cost vs having a line separate and light **** off the hot exhaust

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