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  1. #1

    Default Oswald/JFK Carcano rifle

    For the record — I have nothing against JFK and do not think Oswald was anywhere close to a decent (or sane) human!

    Recently starting looking to build (more of a conversation piece than anything) a Carcano rifle similar to the one Lee Harvey Oswald used to assassinate President John F. Kennedy in Dallas on November 22, 1963. I've always been interested in the history of the event — being from Texas and visiting Dealy Plaza several times.

    Palmetto State Armory recently offered some surplus Carcano 91/24's for sale for a reasonable price. (Oswalds was a 91/38 ). They're the same length with a few minor differences. Looks like they're sold out now. Glad I grabbed it when I did.

    Arrived as advertised - Full of cosmoline and a little banged up. Tore it down, cleaned up & re-blued all the hardware. Scuffed & re-oiled the stock. Turned out pretty decent. Have yet to fire it, but have no reason to think it won't. Local gun shop gave me a matching bayonet for free they had laying around for years collecting dust. Really makes it look neat. Found a sling that was sorta similar to Oswald's and a similar-style Bushnell 4x scope as well. Still waiting on the scope mount to be delivered.

    Anybody else ever mess with these rifles? I know they don't have much of a reputation for quality being an Italian mass-produced military piece. Was really just interested in having historical conversation piece from one of the most infamous events of the 20th century.

    How it arrived
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    Broke down and cleaned up
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    Bayonet attached
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    Back together
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    With sling added. Still need the mount for scope...
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    After buying all this and refinishing, I came across the real-deal Carcano 91/38 in an online auction. Surprisingly, I won (less $ than I paid for the other gun) and am awaiting delivery. Will try to get more authentic scope/mount and sling. Can't find anything for sale currently, but looks like they command big bucks when they do pop up. We'll see how it goes! Dad wants me to sell him the one I fixed up, so he can have a cheap conversation piece too
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  2. #2
    FEP Senior Member Greywolf's Avatar
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    I have a Model 91 Truppo Speciale, made in 1916.
    Coarse, simple action that benefits from a serious cleaning and just a little smoothing. It's actually much more stout than it gets credit for.

    Honestly, it's good for what it was: a broke European nation with belligerent neighbors designs very modern rifle with higher power than just about any other military rifle at the time; designs a fairly modern cartridge (for 1891); has to put money into metallurgy to make rifle stout so skimps on making it pleasing; also has to make it rugged enough for barely trained conscripts. In 1891, their main worry was the French, who had JUST developed smokeless powder and a modern rifle to use it.

    **Don't shoot it without the clips!! The clips allow the cartridget to rise up under the extractor claw and into the bolt face. If you put a cartridge directly in the chamber, the extractor has to mash the brass in order to close the bolt. This makes for deformed extractors that cause poor feeding, poor extraction, and eventually a broken extractor. If you must load a single round without a clip, move the bolt forward about a half inch, slide the cartridge into the rifle on top of the magazine spring, and pull the bolt back until the spring pushes the cartridge up under the extractor. It makes sense when you see it. Since cartridges came loaded in clips in the Italian military supply boxes, this wasn't an issue in 1891.

    Iron sights are weird, it's sort of a near-buckhorn design. Get used to the sights and they work; but the first time you shoot it you'll be aiming waaaaaay too high. It's zeroed for 300 meters, which is ridiculous for a carbine, so you should be aiming low anyway.

    It's light, handy, cycles crisply if it's cleaned and lubed and de-burred; very handy. It would be a good truck gun if it had good ammunition available...

    The worst part about owning a Carcano is ammunition. The ammo has Spitzer-pointed bullets and it was made for a .268" round-nosed bullet extending a ludicrous distance from the cartridge case to engage the rifling. The Italians were very afraid that the higher chamber pressure would destroy the rifling so they made it further away with a gain-twist (rifling twist gets more extreme toward the end of the barrel) (I'm not sure if this is true of the 7.35mm rifles, which are even harder to get ammo for). This was not an unwarranted fear: the British Lee-Metford rifling was pretty quickly washed out by smokeless ammunition and the barrels were re-designed with a different form of rifling to create the iconic Lee-Enfield. Prvi Partisan ammunition is a .264" diameter and doesn't group well at all, it's too small.

    Hornady makes a good round-nosed jacketed bullet for handloading that is actually .268". Friends who shoot soft lead either cast at .270" or swage 7mm stuff down to .270" and have good results.

    I have no qualms about shooting mine with full-powered loads and I believe the action is as strong in 2020 as it was in 1916. However, I tend to use Trail Boss powder in this rifle, with the Hornady bullets, as a fun plinker. Mild recoil (it's a bit stout with a full load for the full-size rifle!) and with lower velocity it tends to land closer to point of aim at 50 and 100 yard "backyard" shoots.

    These are way underrated because of years of incorrect ammo specs, low opinion and poor handling. Clean it and enjoy it.

  3. #3
    FEP Power Member Broncojunkie's Avatar
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    I was surprised to wake up this morning to such a cool thread. I picked up a Carcano yesterday! I actually purchased it a few weeks ago, but just picked it up at my FFL yesterday.

    I have read up on the rifle, a little. I read that the bullet size on the ammo that's available is correct, but the style/material of the bullet would expand at the base enough to close the gap. More modern jacketed bullets need to be slightly larger in diameter. I'm just regurgitating what I read on various sites, but I thought it was an interesting idea. One fella measured multiple rounds from boxes of old surplus ammo and he found the bullets measured .264 or .265.
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  4. #4

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    Neat topic. I don't have a rifle like this one, and probably won't, but I, too, like to study the history and minutia of this event. I wrote my term paper on the assassination my senior year in high school, 35ish years ago.
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  5. #5
    FEP Senior Member gt4494's Avatar
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    Must be a great rifle to fire many shots super fast and hit their targets. and a bolt action at that, unless you don't believe there was only one shooter......
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."
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  6. #6
    FEP Senior Member Greywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gt4494 View Post
    Must be a great rifle to fire many shots super fast and hit their targets. and a bolt action at that, unless you don't believe there was only one shooter......
    Not to rehash over 50 years of conspiracy, but:
    I can fire 6 aimed rounds (6 round clip) in around 10 seconds. At that speed, I'm around a pie plate at 100 yards with the iron sights.
    Oswald was ex-military and a trained marksman using a scope, and probably fired more rounds through a Carcano than I've ever had in my possession.

    I believe that it would have been possible for Oswald to make the shots as described, conspiracy or not.

    Edit: The fun FAST shooter is the SMLE, look up the "Mad Minute" if you want to know what a professional rifleman can do.
    Last edited by Greywolf; 09-05-2020 at 11:11 AM.

  7. #7
    FEP Power Member Ray Dog's Avatar
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    gt4494, I have my pet theory on two that could have been on the grassy knoll, but they frown on bashing politicians here.
    Ray
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  8. #8
    FEP Senior Member gt4494's Avatar
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    I have no theory! working with the DoD for 40+ years you learn there all kinds of things that the public never will know.

    Saying that "Greywolf's" shooting impresses me. I would have a problem shooting my semi-automatic that fast and staying on target!
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."
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  9. #9

    Default Oswald/JFK Carcano rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywolf View Post
    I have a Model 91 Truppo Speciale, made in 1916.
    Coarse, simple action that benefits from a serious cleaning and just a little smoothing. It's actually much more stout than it gets credit for.

    Honestly, it's good for what it was: a broke European nation with belligerent neighbors designs very modern rifle with higher power than just about any other military rifle at the time; designs a fairly modern cartridge (for 1891); has to put money into metallurgy to make rifle stout so skimps on making it pleasing; also has to make it rugged enough for barely trained conscripts. In 1891, their main worry was the French, who had JUST developed smokeless powder and a modern rifle to use it.

    **Don't shoot it without the clips!! The clips allow the cartridget to rise up under the extractor claw and into the bolt face. If you put a cartridge directly in the chamber, the extractor has to mash the brass in order to close the bolt. This makes for deformed extractors that cause poor feeding, poor extraction, and eventually a broken extractor. If you must load a single round without a clip, move the bolt forward about a half inch, slide the cartridge into the rifle on top of the magazine spring, and pull the bolt back until the spring pushes the cartridge up under the extractor. It makes sense when you see it. Since cartridges came loaded in clips in the Italian military supply boxes, this wasn't an issue in 1891.

    Iron sights are weird, it's sort of a near-buckhorn design. Get used to the sights and they work; but the first time you shoot it you'll be aiming waaaaaay too high. It's zeroed for 300 meters, which is ridiculous for a carbine, so you should be aiming low anyway.

    It's light, handy, cycles crisply if it's cleaned and lubed and de-burred; very handy. It would be a good truck gun if it had good ammunition available...

    The worst part about owning a Carcano is ammunition. The ammo has Spitzer-pointed bullets and it was made for a .268" round-nosed bullet extending a ludicrous distance from the cartridge case to engage the rifling. The Italians were very afraid that the higher chamber pressure would destroy the rifling so they made it further away with a gain-twist (rifling twist gets more extreme toward the end of the barrel) (I'm not sure if this is true of the 7.35mm rifles, which are even harder to get ammo for). This was not an unwarranted fear: the British Lee-Metford rifling was pretty quickly washed out by smokeless ammunition and the barrels were re-designed with a different form of rifling to create the iconic Lee-Enfield. Prvi Partisan ammunition is a .264" diameter and doesn't group well at all, it's too small.

    Hornady makes a good round-nosed jacketed bullet for handloading that is actually .268". Friends who shoot soft lead either cast at .270" or swage 7mm stuff down to .270" and have good results.

    I have no qualms about shooting mine with full-powered loads and I believe the action is as strong in 2020 as it was in 1916. However, I tend to use Trail Boss powder in this rifle, with the Hornady bullets, as a fun plinker. Mild recoil (it's a bit stout with a full load for the full-size rifle!) and with lower velocity it tends to land closer to point of aim at 50 and 100 yard "backyard" shoots.

    These are way underrated because of years of incorrect ammo specs, low opinion and poor handling. Clean it and enjoy it.
    Greywolf — appreciate all the info and insight on these rifles. Very informative

    I did get four of the en-bloc clips, but don’t have the right ammunition. Ended up buying Sellier & Bellot 6.5x52. They have too large of a lip on the cartridge end to snap in the en bloc clip. They also have a tapered casing that other Carcano ammo does not appear to have.

    What ammunition do you run/recommend? I don’t reload ammo.





    Last edited by graphicdesigner80; 09-05-2020 at 05:43 PM.
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  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Broncojunkie View Post
    I was surprised to wake up this morning to such a cool thread. I picked up a Carcano yesterday! I actually purchased it a few weeks ago, but just picked it up at my FFL yesterday.

    I have read up on the rifle, a little. I read that the bullet size on the ammo that's available is correct, but the style/material of the bullet would expand at the base enough to close the gap. More modern jacketed bullets need to be slightly larger in diameter. I'm just regurgitating what I read on various sites, but I thought it was an interesting idea. One fella measured multiple rounds from boxes of old surplus ammo and he found the bullets measured .264 or .265.
    Interesting. Great minds think alike

    Post some pics! What model did you get?
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  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by billkandi View Post
    Neat topic. I don't have a rifle like this one, and probably won't, but I, too, like to study the history and minutia of this event. I wrote my term paper on the assassination my senior year in high school, 35ish years ago.
    Very cool. What grade did you get on the paper?

    I’ve been reading and watching documentaries about it as long as I can remember. Have several papers and magazines from back then as well. Surprisingly I’ve never seen the Oliver Stone picture.... from what I hear, it’s three hours I’ll never get back.

    Interesting to see how much ‘cheaper’ things were back then. Oswald paid $12.88 for the rifle ($19.95 with 4x Ordinance-Optics scope installed by Klein’s Sporting goods) + $1.50 postage. What a deal. Ha.

    Same Klein’s ad had a select-pick M-1 Garand for $89!

    Rifle Oswald ordered is the 3rd down on the left. Simply called ‘6.5 Italian Carbine’

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  12. #12
    FEP Power Member Broncojunkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by graphicdesigner80 View Post
    Very cool. What grade did you get on the paper?

    I’ve been reading and watching documentaries about it as long as I can remember. Have several papers and magazines from back then as well. Surprisingly I’ve never seen the Oliver Stone picture.... from what I hear, it’s three hours I’ll never get back.

    Interesting to see how much ‘cheaper’ things were back then. Oswald paid $12.88 for the rifle ($19.95 with 4x Ordinance-Optics scope installed by Klein’s Sporting goods) + $1.50 postage. What a deal. Ha.

    Same Klein’s ad had a select-pick M-1 Garand for $89!

    Rifle Oswald ordered is the 3rd down on the left. Simply called ‘6.5 Italian Carbine’

    Man, I'd like to buy a few M1 Garands and 30 carbines for those prices lol!
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  13. #13
    FEP Power Member Broncojunkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by graphicdesigner80 View Post
    Interesting. Great minds think alike

    Post some pics! What model did you get?
    I got the 91TS. Haven't even had a chance to clean it up yet. I purchased it a few weeks ago, but I've been working out of town and it's been sitting in my FFL's shop till this past Friday.

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  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Broncojunkie View Post
    I got the 91TS. Haven't even had a chance to clean it up yet. I purchased it a few weeks ago, but I've been working out of town and it's been sitting in my FFL's shop till this past Friday.

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    Wow. Looks really nice as-is.

    I heard TS stands for troop special... is that right?

    Any idea what year it was made?
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    FEP Power Member Broncojunkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by graphicdesigner80 View Post
    Wow. Looks really nice as-is.

    I heard TS stands for troop special... is that right?

    Any idea what year it was made?
    Yep! Trupe Speciale or whatever they say in Italian (Special Troop). I haven't even gone so far as to figure the year. Is it stamped on it somewhere? Or is it one of those things you have to research? I just got back in town after spending 31 days on a river boat. Did some rat killing (erands) yesterday and today we started working on building a garage here at the house. So I haven't had much time.
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  16. #16
    FEP Senior Member Greywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gt4494 View Post
    I have no theory! working with the DoD for 40+ years you learn there all kinds of things that the public never will know.

    Saying that "Greywolf's" shooting impresses me. I would have a problem shooting my semi-automatic that fast and staying on target!
    Bear in mind, that's from prone, rifle on sandbag, using my handloads (reduced recoil because I'm shooting at paper for fun). 10 seconds is a long time if you're already on target and don't need to re-aim or reload. With a standing start, real recoil and an unsupported rifle, I'd probably take most of a minute to get 6 rounds on target.

    I'm faster with the SMLE, and if I get through a full 20 in a minute I'm having a great day. The record is 38 in the "Mad Minute", and I'd be lucky to get the regulation 15 in that (which requires standing start among other things).

    More important, GraphicDesigner80:

    THAT IS NOT CARCANO AMMUNITION. Carcano ammunition is not rimmed; it looks similar to .243 in case and bullet size. 6.5x52 R is a rimmed cartridge that I don't recognize. Prvi Partisan makes a safe-to-shoot but undersized round; I've heard good things about the Hornady but I haven't shot or measured it.

    And last--Broncojunkie, the year and arsenal should be on the receiver, near where it says 0797. Mine is a Brescia 1916. Rifles made after Mussolini took power are often marked in roman numerals with some weird formula based on the year of the regime. Yours may have been re-stocked; it's set up for a standard bayonet and not the "original" TS bayonet (which rotates on from the side, instead of pushing on from the front). If so, the date may be partly hidden by the stock.

  17. #17

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    Great thread
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  18. #18
    FEP Power Member Broncojunkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greywolf View Post
    Bear in mind, that's from prone, rifle on sandbag, using my handloads (reduced recoil because I'm shooting at paper for fun). 10 seconds is a long time if you're already on target and don't need to re-aim or reload. With a standing start, real recoil and an unsupported rifle, I'd probably take most of a minute to get 6 rounds on target.

    I'm faster with the SMLE, and if I get through a full 20 in a minute I'm having a great day. The record is 38 in the "Mad Minute", and I'd be lucky to get the regulation 15 in that (which requires standing start among other things).

    More important, GraphicDesigner80:

    THAT IS NOT CARCANO AMMUNITION. Carcano ammunition is not rimmed; it looks similar to .243 in case and bullet size. 6.5x52 R is a rimmed cartridge that I don't recognize. Prvi Partisan makes a safe-to-shoot but undersized round; I've heard good things about the Hornady but I haven't shot or measured it.

    And last--Broncojunkie, the year and arsenal should be on the receiver, near where it says 0797. Mine is a Brescia 1916. Rifles made after Mussolini took power are often marked in roman numerals with some weird formula based on the year of the regime. Yours may have been re-stocked; it's set up for a standard bayonet and not the "original" TS bayonet (which rotates on from the side, instead of pushing on from the front). If so, the date may be partly hidden by the stock.

    Checked again and it is marked 1934 - Brescia.
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  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Broncojunkie View Post
    Checked again and it is marked 1934 - Brescia.
    Very cool. Need to check mine & find out the date too.
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  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greywolf View Post
    More important, GraphicDesigner80:

    THAT IS NOT CARCANO AMMUNITION. Carcano ammunition is not rimmed; it looks similar to .243 in case and bullet size. 6.5x52 R is a rimmed cartridge that I don't recognize. Prvi Partisan makes a safe-to-shoot but undersized round; I've heard good things about the Hornady but I haven't shot or measured it.
    .
    Thanks very much on the ammo info! I’ll take a look at Priv Partisan & Hornady.


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    FEP Power Member Broncojunkie's Avatar
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    Stayed up late and cleaned up the rifle. Did a complete disassembly, a little steel wool to the steel and cleaned up the stock. Everything oiled up and disassembled the bolt, cleaned and lubed. I believe it's ready to shoot. Just need some ammo! I would have already ordered some, but I had planned on going to a gun show this weekend. I just stayed too busy dealing with the garage build. Anyway, the rifling cleaned up beautifully. No broken parts, stripped screws, etc. Several parts are marked with the ser# (797), including a hand-written (in pencil) mark under the upper forend piece.

    Here's a couple pics cleaned up.
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    79 Pace Car - 331, t5
    79 Pace Car- 302, 4 spd
    79 Cobra - working on 351w, t5
    82 Capri- working on 302, t5
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  22. #22

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    Looks great! Ready for the range
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    FEP Power Member mcb82gt's Avatar
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    Looking at that old Kleins add. I have a 1903 Springfield from Rock Island arsenal. Got it from my grandpa, he was Army his whole life.
    Mike

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  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcb82gt View Post
    Looking at that old Kleins add. I have a 1903 Springfield from Rock Island arsenal. Got it from my grandpa, he was Army his whole life.
    Hard to beat the tired 'n true '03 Springfield. Even neater that you got it from your grandpa. Post some pics!
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  25. #25

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    Went ahead and bought 5 boxes of Prvi Partizan 6.5x52 Carcano 123 Grain.

    Thanks again to Greywolf on the recommendation!
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