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  1. #1

    Default Strange rich condition but no codes

    Strange little issue has been popping up. My car will suddenly go very rich (10-13:1) but no codes are appearing. I just replaced the O2 sensor but like I said, no codes, and this has occurred rarely before. To 'fix' it all I have to do is turn the car off and back on (even while driving) and it goes away for sometimes 20 minutes. It doesn't appear like bumps or particular engine activity 'cause' it. It happened as I was idling down the driveway just now and it happened while I was flying through country roads. Car stutters a little when off throttle under this condition but otherwise it doesn't affect the car much.

    It is almost like the car suddenly thinks it is cold and is going into a rich warm up mode. No ECT sensor error on the computer though. Could it be a bad ECT that just doesn't go out of bounds? Why would restarting the motor fix it?

    This my CFI of course...
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    K&N filter in a stock dual snorkel, GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721 intake, MSD 8456 Dist., MSD 8227 coil
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers, catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals
    Maximum Motorsports caster/camber plates and strut tower brace, 3.73 rear, dura grip (both Yukon)
    Ford Performance Springs, Firehawk A/S 225/55r16 on LMR TRX r390 wheels (street)
    Federal 595 rs-rr 245/40r17 and 255/40r17 on OE cobra r wheels (race)
    AOD rebuilt with a 6 clutch direct drum, Koline steels stacked with 8 clutches, Kevlar band, superior shift kit, new torque converter. --Everything else stock and fully functional.

  2. #2
    FEP Power Member mcb82gt's Avatar
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    Default

    If I remember right, that coolant temp sensor for the eec, effects a lot of things on CFI
    Mike

    Now stang-less.

    88 Cougar 5.0

  3. #3

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    My engine runs real cool, right around 180 (195 thermostat) so I am suspecting that is it. Perhaps I have a 'cool' biased ECT. Sensors are such garbage these days.

    My new idea is to see if it does it idling in the drive vs on the road where it is cooler.
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    K&N filter in a stock dual snorkel, GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721 intake, MSD 8456 Dist., MSD 8227 coil
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers, catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals
    Maximum Motorsports caster/camber plates and strut tower brace, 3.73 rear, dura grip (both Yukon)
    Ford Performance Springs, Firehawk A/S 225/55r16 on LMR TRX r390 wheels (street)
    Federal 595 rs-rr 245/40r17 and 255/40r17 on OE cobra r wheels (race)
    AOD rebuilt with a 6 clutch direct drum, Koline steels stacked with 8 clutches, Kevlar band, superior shift kit, new torque converter. --Everything else stock and fully functional.

  4. #4

    Default

    Well, 30 dollars and one autozone later... it was the ECT. I think this was quite a slow creep of a problem too. So strange it didn't throw codes, it must have just been reading 'cold' but not strangely cold.

    It also must have been just on the just cusp too since it was so intermittent. Interesting that the engine restart had any effect on this. Perhaps xctasy or jacook know what's up with that. It would take quite a while after the restart for the problem to occur even though the engine was hot and should have been open loop pretty quickly. I did notice that the POS ECT that I replaced was substantially different than the duralast I put in, but the last one was different from the previous before that. I have 4 of the things laying in the garage now.
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    K&N filter in a stock dual snorkel, GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721 intake, MSD 8456 Dist., MSD 8227 coil
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers, catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals
    Maximum Motorsports caster/camber plates and strut tower brace, 3.73 rear, dura grip (both Yukon)
    Ford Performance Springs, Firehawk A/S 225/55r16 on LMR TRX r390 wheels (street)
    Federal 595 rs-rr 245/40r17 and 255/40r17 on OE cobra r wheels (race)
    AOD rebuilt with a 6 clutch direct drum, Koline steels stacked with 8 clutches, Kevlar band, superior shift kit, new torque converter. --Everything else stock and fully functional.

  5. #5
    FEP Super Member cb84capri's Avatar
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    I just had a no start when hot issue that had me pulling out my hair on our Volvo XC90. A difference of 25 ohms in the colder direction at 195 degrees was causing the car not to start on a coolant temp sensor with around a 2500 ohm range... Crazy right? This was the very first thing that I checked when the problem arose, and I thought it was in range. No codes and the temp looked fine on a scan tool too. There was some corrosion on the sensor I likely could have cleaned off and thrown it back in, reminded me of the flame sensor in my furnace and the oxidation on it that would cause it not to stay lit. How did your old sensor look?

    I did replace that sensor, but I'll be keeping a resistor in the glove box in case this crap happens again. It took me doing the "throw parts at it until it goes away" approach to finally figure it out.

    Cale

  6. #6

    Default

    It wasn't perfectly shiny but it wasn't terrible. I wish there was a way to see the performance of these sensors on an obd1 without pulling them. I guess that is what you get with an Atari lvl computer running your car.
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    K&N filter in a stock dual snorkel, GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721 intake, MSD 8456 Dist., MSD 8227 coil
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers, catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals
    Maximum Motorsports caster/camber plates and strut tower brace, 3.73 rear, dura grip (both Yukon)
    Ford Performance Springs, Firehawk A/S 225/55r16 on LMR TRX r390 wheels (street)
    Federal 595 rs-rr 245/40r17 and 255/40r17 on OE cobra r wheels (race)
    AOD rebuilt with a 6 clutch direct drum, Koline steels stacked with 8 clutches, Kevlar band, superior shift kit, new torque converter. --Everything else stock and fully functional.

  7. #7
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    OBD1 cars from 1990 to 1994 had old EECIV's with added Activated PID's.

    32 items for Fords EECIV from 1991 to 1995.





    These are just the "breakout box" voltage range items Ford used on the 60 pin OTC interceptor.


    You can real time log the sensors by raiding the 60 pin plug and make the extension to jumper in the wires without destroying the normal plated and pinned interconnects.

    Real time data logging the 0 to 5 volt sensor values is easy with a Can Bus data logger.

    The Ford OBD1 7 wire connector was the first step towards OBD2. The later 1996 era on wards 16 pin dash plug





    is just a Can Bus access port to data log voltages or resistances using an SAE protocol.

    There are a few different data loggers around that can measure analogue voltages changes in real time can be logged. Out of range values can get flagged and you keep your Atari era computer, but use all Fords Executive " propriety " methods for picking up rouge voltages.

    I used Campbell Scientific's 8 or 16 bit data loggers with LoggerNet to do real time logging.

    Using the stock stock 7 pin DTC jumper can be upward loaded into OBD2 if the J3 port is accessed.


    this

    plus the 60 pin plug interceptor adaptor,




    and the J3 on the mother board can be program scanned into the OBD2 port. The parity and data sweeps are pulled in using an OTC scanner.

  8. #8
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Just another point. The early Ford Truck YFA 1bbl feedback 2.3 and 4.9 liter and Mustang/Capri 2.3 1bbl EECIV's are generally noted as being what my Ford guy Gregg calls...the least helpfull EEC systems ever made.

    The issue is that fault code resolution is done at periodic times, but out of range voltages are happening often. As Ak Miller said in the 1983 Impco Gas Technical Service Bulletins before he left to work at OHG, Fords master plan was that up till 1985 have no Malfunction Indicator Lamp...even the ones on the dash were often just oil pressure lamps repurposed for using the Seven wire Data Test Code outlet.

    So Ford had a layered approach to data access, and locked out lower level access. The Breakout box test will show up the faults before the normal DTC fault code process will. The normal code reader with the long cable will raise DTCs using the two gathering process, KOEO, KOER. The Breakout Box method with model specific overlays will allow a passenger to real time data log.

    The 60 pins give you the pinouts, the earth to the O2 sensor us not integrated on 84's, so you can probe real time air fuel voltage while you check the other inputs. Accessing Keep Alive Memory and Pulse width Modulation for injectors and stuff is only able to happen from the J3 port on the mother board. Essentially, its easy to access the data like Alec Pepper did on OBD2 EECV's with a long chord to the 16 pin plug, but you have to hardwire the J3, DTC and probe the 60 pin plug and hook into the EGR and AIR system to get a full look at some curly faults.

    For the non port EFi cars, that is, Feedback Carbs, Central Fuel Injection, Tempo 2.3 OHV Canadian carb fours, thisr Carter YFA and Variable Venturi Motorcraft 2 bbls, the process of voltage logging is easy. The problem is knowing what the out of range voltages look like when there might also be a non functional Downstream Air or EGR or Vaccum Operated Throttle Modulator or Pull down choke.

    OBD2 had the 50 thou and 25 thou "Champion spark plug" vaccum restrictor solenoid periodic leak test to nail that bad boy stuff down.

    Luckily, CFi is a lot more friendly than the 2.3/4.9 and feedback 5.0 low GVCW trucks to check.

    A whole industry of 1984 to 1995 emissions gear removal existed/ still exists because people werent/arent told the full importance of bread boarding those critical sensor voltages.

  9. #9

    Default

    That is way more than I can manage to put together. Logging would be awesome though.

    However, today I went out and bumped the timing up to 15 and the car lost its mind again. The richness the idle issues, the bucking at cruise, etc. Threw every code associated with sensors on the intake and one on the strut tower, even the PIP. ECT, MAF, Charge temp, the whole shebang. I kicked around under there (moved the timing back) wiggled all the connections, and it returned to normal and drove great for the rest of the day. I wonder if the aluminum intake might be causing ground issues? But why would all the sensors puke at once? Is there some master ground or something that is frayed?
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    K&N filter in a stock dual snorkel, GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721 intake, MSD 8456 Dist., MSD 8227 coil
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers, catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals
    Maximum Motorsports caster/camber plates and strut tower brace, 3.73 rear, dura grip (both Yukon)
    Ford Performance Springs, Firehawk A/S 225/55r16 on LMR TRX r390 wheels (street)
    Federal 595 rs-rr 245/40r17 and 255/40r17 on OE cobra r wheels (race)
    AOD rebuilt with a 6 clutch direct drum, Koline steels stacked with 8 clutches, Kevlar band, superior shift kit, new torque converter. --Everything else stock and fully functional.

  10. #10
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Two things. Mights, not definates. A 3rd thing noted last.


    1.Out of range base crank advance might trigger a change in stored Keep Alive Kemory values. It might force the ECM to go to fixed lookup values and reinstate excepted values.

    2.Based on what Ive heard, your heads dont have upstream air, so a small aspect of data isnt comming from that air richining source during cold operation.

    In the limited Keep Alive Memory tables on pre 1985 computers with your early type of O2 sensor without an ECM board earth , a broad based fault might be coming through. Its most likely one of the upstream air creating a rich o2 sensor under cold start. If the tables arent filled, it might go through a reset to populate the cells.

    According to JA Cook, the Early EECiv CFi might revert to fixed lock-up open loop n alpha values if the O2 sensir diesnt read full rich when the upstream air is diverted. If that doesnt happen, a broad fault might be raised.

    JA Cook says Ford went to a different O2 sensor for 85. I know that seperate earth sensor can chart voltage changes at different stages in the cold start, transition and fully warm phases, and set up a specific targeted fault code.. On pre 85s, the data logging and fault setting is less advanced, and there is no way for the EECIV faults to be catalouged against uostrean air. It will reset the tables with new default values and then run through its normal algoritim.

    3. The out of range faults are based on Reference voltages from 3 ground wires. The earthing influeces the polled reference voltages. The normal intake is aluminum but Fords even have earthing issues if you use different gaskets. I lost my carb and water temperature earth when I added a silica spacer on my 1985 4.1 liter cross flow and added a low voltage relay. Auto choke and temerature gauge didnt work, had to add a separate extra earth. Fords earthing system is okay stock, but any intake and sensor changes, the clean eartb wignal that the EECiv needs to function to produce 0 to 5 volt references, they can get lost. Those breakout bix voltages have no secondary work around if lost. The reason an EECv has almost twice the amount of pinsus to do a better job data logging and fault checking. The EECiv can be taken down and felled a lot easier than a 103 pin ECM with structured work-arounds.

    Earths and sensors create a reference voltage from 3 or 4 sources, so ya, the earths are the first check.

  11. #11

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    Argh. Yeah, I am getting a 54 for the upstream (of course). I have the cfi grounded and I will double check the manifold. It runs perfectly on closed loop... Sometimes I wish I could just leave it there...

    From what you wrote there doesn't seem to be much I can do about the first 2 unless I get a new computer.
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    K&N filter in a stock dual snorkel, GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721 intake, MSD 8456 Dist., MSD 8227 coil
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers, catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals
    Maximum Motorsports caster/camber plates and strut tower brace, 3.73 rear, dura grip (both Yukon)
    Ford Performance Springs, Firehawk A/S 225/55r16 on LMR TRX r390 wheels (street)
    Federal 595 rs-rr 245/40r17 and 255/40r17 on OE cobra r wheels (race)
    AOD rebuilt with a 6 clutch direct drum, Koline steels stacked with 8 clutches, Kevlar band, superior shift kit, new torque converter. --Everything else stock and fully functional.

  12. #12

    Default

    Also, I should mention, playing with the wires whole running doesn't seem to affect much. This also makes me think it is the computer having a rough time of it. Playing with the wires and restarting seems to be where it is at. Yesterday I actually drove the car through it. After maybe 30 the car had figured it's stuff out and then ran perfectly. It was at operating temperature long before we started that journey so it wasn't just warming up.

    Off to the autocross this morning. Fingers crossed.
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    K&N filter in a stock dual snorkel, GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721 intake, MSD 8456 Dist., MSD 8227 coil
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers, catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals
    Maximum Motorsports caster/camber plates and strut tower brace, 3.73 rear, dura grip (both Yukon)
    Ford Performance Springs, Firehawk A/S 225/55r16 on LMR TRX r390 wheels (street)
    Federal 595 rs-rr 245/40r17 and 255/40r17 on OE cobra r wheels (race)
    AOD rebuilt with a 6 clutch direct drum, Koline steels stacked with 8 clutches, Kevlar band, superior shift kit, new torque converter. --Everything else stock and fully functional.

  13. #13
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Here's how to re-purpose, and move on.


    As Mick said back in 2003 regarding an 86 SEFI.

    The sensors tell the ECM what's happening (called feedback) and the ECM tells the actuators what to do.

    Now, the Thermactor air injection system consists of a pump, two actuators (TAB and TAD), two air valves (TAB and TAB), two check valves, and the associated vacuum lines, and rubber and metal tubes. There are no sensors.

    On the CFi HO 5.0, the ECM controls TAB and TAD actuator operation. The ECM does not receive feedback from them like it does from sensors.

    Fords Code 54, for instance, was changed and then divided right to left by 1986 on the SEFI, you could get a

    44 = "Secondary Air injection system inoperative (right side)"

    or 94 = "Secondary Air Injection system inoperative (left side)",

    and trigger what O2 sensor was running rich.

    Good news is, for your CFi, I think there is a work around to control upstream air.

    It follows on from what Ford has histrically done.

    From 1966 onwards, the Cleveland foundry made parts for the Windsor 289 bound for California.

    Casting Code 67-Mustang-Exhaust-Manifold-Thermactor-FOMOCO-C6OE-9430-F is the right side Header, and it has the Thermactor port added to the casting.





    For a short time, this picture will link as well.




    "https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/H1kAAOSwYIJeNgGc/s-l1600.jpg"

    How Ford did it in 1966-1967 is how Ford did it in 1980-1983

    just like the primary light off catalyst Downstream air 1980-1983 3.3 liters




    or 1980-1983 2.3 liter in lines had on there headers.






    Your upgraded factory 84 or 85 system can have a right hand side Thermactor port added upstream at the O ring. That will allow the sensors to feed the right info back to the ECM.

    When going angle plug iron GT40P or aluminum GT40x or Z304 heads, old 289 headers ported can allow Thermactors to function.

    You can even re-drill and work the typical 221/260/289/302-2V and -4V exhaust manifold package heater tube as an Upstream Thermactor, um, Boss. I'd try that on your CFi. It just has to have to stock anti backfire CV.




    Ford made it easy to re-rig a defacto upstream air using the stock RHS flapper.


    Que http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...rs-GT40P-heads

    Quote Originally Posted by JACook
    The flapper doesn't pose much restriction, as it, and the header outlet, are a bit larger diameter
    than the down tubes. The only thing you have to do to use it with an '86+ header is to mill the
    ball off the header outlet, or replace the flange with a flat one. Apart from the ball, the flanges
    are in the same place.
    And remember...

    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy View Post
    GT40P's are the sh!+, because stock K code iron cast headers fit.

  14. #14

    Default

    Hah! very interesting. So just make a new bung for the upstream thermactor. I wonder if that would clear california standards (not that i need them but I could always use it as a selling point)?

    So I autocrossed the car yesterday (it was awesome with its new ford performance lowering springs). The engine never had a hiccup. I have a hard time thinking it could be frayed wires if it could go through that kind of beating and still run like perfection for 6 laps of autocross and 160 miles of there and back travel on stiff springs and tiny tires.

    Does it make sense that it is the computer pooping the bed over the loss of the thermactor upstream signal? I am not doubting that it could be, but before I pursue a fix I want to make sure. I took it out again this evening after the street tires were back on and it ran like a champ.

    If I bump the timing back up to 13 and the car turns to poop, what would that mean? Does that change the situation? Just trying to figure out the parameters here.

    I would also add that before the last bought of badness I put in a NOS ford bosch O2 sensor and that I think the computer enjoyed that, it seems on my AFR the car is better at hitting a good mix after I did that. That was before my spin through wine country where the car found its safe place and started behaving. The only other thing I have been mucking with was timing. When I put in the NOS sensor I tried a couple of different timings but it was all crap unless I turned it down to 10 degrees advance. It wasn't pinging or anything, just missing and stumbling under anything but acceleration (which was awesome).

    This is the last dyno I did. This was before I replaced the ECT or O2. You can see how rich the thing was running and how unpredictable it was. The first run was at 10 degrees the second was up a little and the last was at 20 degrees advanced. No pinging anywhere in there at all. Once it was at 20 the car started stumbling at cruise/part throttle. The ECT replacement and the new O2 sensor happened afte rthe dyno and has really helped the computers full throttle AFR control, however, when I moved the timing up a little (15) it started stumbling again at partial throttle. I no longer get a rich condition after coasting down a hill, which I completely attribute to an overly sensitive ECT.

    I think my marks are off for TDC, I need to check them, but I also think the computer can do insane things with advance so I am not sure my base timing makes any difference. Ectasy? Do you know about that? I was watching what the computer was up to with the spout plugged in and I was watching it at idle push the advance up to 48 to control idle at 550rpm. I can't imagine changing the idle really matters after I saw that. Or... my marks are off by 12 degrees... I suspect the changes that we see in this dyno output are not changes in advance but changes in what the sensors are telling the computer
    Name:  dank.jpg
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    Last edited by emerygt350; 08-31-2020 at 09:10 PM.
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    K&N filter in a stock dual snorkel, GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721 intake, MSD 8456 Dist., MSD 8227 coil
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers, catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals
    Maximum Motorsports caster/camber plates and strut tower brace, 3.73 rear, dura grip (both Yukon)
    Ford Performance Springs, Firehawk A/S 225/55r16 on LMR TRX r390 wheels (street)
    Federal 595 rs-rr 245/40r17 and 255/40r17 on OE cobra r wheels (race)
    AOD rebuilt with a 6 clutch direct drum, Koline steels stacked with 8 clutches, Kevlar band, superior shift kit, new torque converter. --Everything else stock and fully functional.

  15. #15

    Default

    Here is a view after the new springs...Name:  IMG_20200827_164957~2.jpg
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    here is with the stock 36 year old springs...

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    Last edited by emerygt350; 08-31-2020 at 09:26 PM.
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    K&N filter in a stock dual snorkel, GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721 intake, MSD 8456 Dist., MSD 8227 coil
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers, catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals
    Maximum Motorsports caster/camber plates and strut tower brace, 3.73 rear, dura grip (both Yukon)
    Ford Performance Springs, Firehawk A/S 225/55r16 on LMR TRX r390 wheels (street)
    Federal 595 rs-rr 245/40r17 and 255/40r17 on OE cobra r wheels (race)
    AOD rebuilt with a 6 clutch direct drum, Koline steels stacked with 8 clutches, Kevlar band, superior shift kit, new torque converter. --Everything else stock and fully functional.

  16. #16
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Nice ride height. Neat LMR's and the CFi is unmatched in a Vert where you can hear the 1983 Euro Spec 240 hp Mercedes Benz SL500 Convertible style injector rasp. With your heads and intake mods, it matches that giant big block Five liter for sensual appeal and performance.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ature=emb_logo


    Nothing to much else to worry about. Keep a spare TFi module handy, and make sure the PIP signal or any replacement is making a clean signal.


    http://www.zeitronix.com/ has some basic data logging stuff.

    Zt-2 Model 2010 Wideband Datalogging System + ZR-1 AFR and Lambda Gauge Display Bundle,
    Hacker/Tweaker AFR/Lambda Display,
    and 100 hr sd card Black Box Data Logger
    and Audio-Visual Warning and Trigger box

    would do everything my 16 bit Campbell Scientific and lap top did.

    O2 sensor can be Morse logged by a wide or narrow Band on the other bank. Lee Morse was just one of many FoMoCo engineers who did one cylinder dyno tests and engine oiling development for early Small Block race engines, so a Morse test is just checking the basics.

    What happens left happens right to a certain extent, even with the flapper valve and EGR cross over. I would personally add a narrow band AEM meter on the other bank, and data log by a propriety Cat 5 multi-meter.

    Air fuel ratio with the factory narrow band is controlled by administration from the EECIv "ECA/ECM/ CPU", and the AIR and EGR are by-standers. So key is to find how rich or lean.

    Rich or lean are just 6 percenter's in the power and torque curve, and nothing pushes that out of wack except cylinder to cylinder richness variances.

    Ignition wise, well, 150 to 164.5 hp is 10% just by base ignition jump. And that's typical.


    Advance and the tip in and tip out of 6 degrees base timing will effect the 48 to as little as 20 degrees base timing. I think the ignition might be periodically faulty or tracking EMF. Most likely, its just a lack of proper info in the Keep Alive Memory.

    The way to fix the ignition is to keep it stock and monitor it. Its single signal to the ECM just has to be clean, so a Cat 4 multi-meter or scanner will do that. If its dropping signal, it should be obvious. Its got an internal magnetic Hall Proximity sensor which triggers the ECMs delivery of fuel. Spark control is more or less self contained in the TFi, with partial administration from the ECM.



    See the Richard Holdener engine responses to air fuel.

    https://youtu.be/HXX4zcPr9IE
    They are small. 6.8%.

    Ignition can be a 45% on a USA OHV v8, it was on the 383 SBC Stroker example here. Bigger losses of peak advance, it can drop power even 60% depending on if you loose 25 or 28 degrees, and if the engine is not especially detonation resistant. Like a small camshaft car on standard gas, or a Cleveland 2V with a lot of compression (9.4:1) and a 256 degree cam. The Aussie 4.9 liter 4BBL Cleveland lost a lot more power as advance was taken off.

    On CFi's EECiv it can under or over fuel only within a 12% range at each rpm, the pulse-width modulation governs high and low fuel supply, and everything is kind locked in with EECIV a lot closer than it is with a carb.

    The emissions system is a tiny 3% -ege each on engine power and AIR and EGR are just low load systems to make the engines exhaust temperature stable.

    To map ignition advance, you to into the Map sensor voltage against TPS, and log what the actual spark advance should be for the mPa or mm Hg. A voltage output from the MAP sensor pin triggers an exact administration of spark advance, except when the engine is idling. The VOTM and Choke Modulator cycle between the tachometer rpm, and administer base rpm based on engine coolant temp and Upstream Air signal. So a lot of stuff is being played off against the Pull-down Choke Modulator and the Vacuum Operated Throttle Modulator.

    The whole part is delicately controlled and modulated.


    See what Saturn V did this mapping on his 4bbl 85. TFi is administrative, and the MAP sensor is sent manifold vacuum, and the TFi module responds to the voltage reading, so some of this is redundant info.

    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy
    And be careful how you use your existing vacuum supply to the distributor. I'm not saying one is better than the other, only that when the throttle is closed or near closed, the secondary barrel will be adding fuel air mix to the engine. Often your air fuel is symptomatic of what vacuum source you tap into.

    Ported vacuum can create psychotic swings in air fuel ratio as throttle position changes.




    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy
    Proper journalling of air fuel, base engine vac, and rpm is needed to get a full picture.








    http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/...URNv_afr_1.jpg


    WalkingTall Mapping his 86 3.8 CFi

    Quote Originally Posted by Walking-Tall View Post
    Remembered my camera can take video, and figured out how to do that today, enjoy, lol

    ~ Some AFR (mV from O2 sensor) video clips from today (don't mind the mess, we're testing gawldangit, LOL!)


    Idle, in Neutral and in Drive (14+:1):


    - Idles at 22"Hg (~650rpm) in Neutral and 19-20"Hg (~500rpm) in Drive


    Normal acceleration to 50KPH/30MPH (~15.5-16:1):


    - vacuum drops down to 8-10 with just normal acceleration, which is why the 8.5"Hg power valve was too soon


    Cruise @ 65KPH/40MPH (16.5+:1):




    Throttle blip on gravel, lol, and then a couple WOT's (~12.9-13.2:1)... on the lean side:


    - finally checked WOT after this with the pedal flat-on-the-floor and there was another ~1/4" pull required at the carburetor. So, in this video it wasn't actually going fully to WOT, which is also why it didn't kick down the 2nd time I trounced on it. I pinched a ~1/4" fishing line sinker onto the accelerator pedal end of the cable for that bit more pull. Now she opens wide.


    So yeah, I'm quite happy with her function, minus WOT. I'll feel better with PVCR's a bit bigger for ~12.5:1... to be continued...

  17. #17
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Where you are with this is where every 1985-1993 5.0 or 1988-1993 5.8 Speed Density Port EFi F truck owner is with the stock EECIV. It has a huge target market of 70000 cars, similar to the CFi 5.0 HO and SO crowd in Lincolns, Mercuries and Specialty Fox coupes, and compact LTD LX's and MTX's.


    The way it works with CFi is you are in three simultaneous universes.


    1. One leg in the old M code 5.0 carb 2-bbl camp, and


    2. the other leg in the Speed Density truck 1989-1995 7.5 liter camp the 230 hp Big Blocks ran, a pure 4180 4BBL intake 460 with a throttle body slapped on it and 8 injectors on the ports.


    3. And there's this "aspirational" other third leg (um, trying to not sound like a DVA8 ).... the idea that you just need to push the air fuel and ignition trim a little to make it work like a well dialed in and calibrated Megasquirt, GM Cal Pac or Holley Sniper TBi.


    You can do all that, but you have to data log, and do it gently while keeping everything else peachy.

    Nothing much is happening to the Volumetric Efficiency or ancillaries, so you just need some kind of restoration of the upstream AIR, and then go looking for a rich enough flat fuel curve minus the AIR, EGR and ignition tip-ins. Your ignition curve will be fine if it can duplicate the stock advance verses MAP readings.

    All that VOTM verses CM and TPS jazz can be logged, and I'd personally look at a Pyrometer in exhausts 2 and 8 .


    On 2-BBL SB fords, its just like running nitrous and checking plugs. You check the rich and lean cylinders typically 2 and 8 for lean outs, and read the plugs after wide open throttle shut down to cross check an O2 sensor reading.

    HO Firing order





    The target audience is huge. The info is out there and very accurate. The problem is defined in this post on a 195 hp Speed Density 5.0 truck the USA (and Aussies) used after 1985 to replace the 216 hp 351 2V headed 4bbl Carter power house. Or your Carb 4bbl 5.0 and 5.8 HO's.

    see https://eectuning.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21366

  18. #18

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    2 and 8 because they are easy to reach it because of the particular intake runners?
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    K&N filter in a stock dual snorkel, GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721 intake, MSD 8456 Dist., MSD 8227 coil
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers, catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals
    Maximum Motorsports caster/camber plates and strut tower brace, 3.73 rear, dura grip (both Yukon)
    Ford Performance Springs, Firehawk A/S 225/55r16 on LMR TRX r390 wheels (street)
    Federal 595 rs-rr 245/40r17 and 255/40r17 on OE cobra r wheels (race)
    AOD rebuilt with a 6 clutch direct drum, Koline steels stacked with 8 clutches, Kevlar band, superior shift kit, new torque converter. --Everything else stock and fully functional.

  19. #19
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    No, because youll find the info you need on air fuel ratio variance from just those plugs. Not all 8 have to be read.

  20. #20

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    Well, I think I have figured out a gremlin at least. Finally, maybe two weeks ago, I was doing some last minute double checks before another autocross. Closed the hood, turned the key, nothing. No power anywhere. No lights, no buzzer, no nothing. Started digging around under the solenoid, everything comes back to life. Dig in and sure enough, look at this awesome splicing job.Name:  -4940180830064608686.jpg
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    fixed that and it appears everything is doing what it should. I had been so focused on bad grounds it never occurred to me it could be a bad positive! That is such a rats nest under the solenoid that I can't really tell where these are going. One (the white) is coming off a weird relay (not attached to the body of the car) with a couple large hot wires and a little clip wire. Each has inline fusing. I assume the reds are headed to the coil and other important places.

    I was able to advance the timing again back up to 15 and no issues. I suspect and hope this was the heart of all my strange sensor issues. I just don't get how somebody could do that wiring wrap it in tape and walk away.
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    K&N filter in a stock dual snorkel, GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721 intake, MSD 8456 Dist., MSD 8227 coil
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers, catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals
    Maximum Motorsports caster/camber plates and strut tower brace, 3.73 rear, dura grip (both Yukon)
    Ford Performance Springs, Firehawk A/S 225/55r16 on LMR TRX r390 wheels (street)
    Federal 595 rs-rr 245/40r17 and 255/40r17 on OE cobra r wheels (race)
    AOD rebuilt with a 6 clutch direct drum, Koline steels stacked with 8 clutches, Kevlar band, superior shift kit, new torque converter. --Everything else stock and fully functional.

  21. #21
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Rect-um Repair...by an A hole. Glad you got I.T. sorted.

  22. #22
    FEP Power Member mcb82gt's Avatar
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    Wow. Good read, but glad you nailed it. Feels good to be running right!
    Mike

    Now stang-less.

    88 Cougar 5.0

  23. #23
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emerygt350 View Post
    Argh. Yeah, I am getting a 54 for the upstream (of course). I have the cfi grounded and I will double check the manifold. It runs perfectly on closed loop... Sometimes I wish I could just leave it there...

    From what you wrote there doesn't seem to be much I can do about the first 2 unless I get a new computer.
    See grabbergreen84's DRILLING GT40P HEADS FOR THERMACTOR:


    Quote Originally Posted by grabbergreen84 View Post
    Edit 7/21/17: Stupid botophucket!
    Here are pics which were luckily still in my computer:








    Well, I don't yet know whether or not I ruined a perfectly good pair of $40 junkyard GT40P cylinder heads, but I did drill a Thermactor passage back to the rearmost exhaust port (cyls. 4 & 8 ) on each of them, drilled connecting passages from the roofs of the ports, and drilled and tapped for the bolts which secure the Thermactor crossover tube to the backs of the heads. I'm pretty sure I didn't hit any water or air/fuel, but I guess I'll find out for sure, once I install them. I've got springs from Alex's Parts ordered, and plan to put these heads on my car this summer.
    What I'm trying to avoid here, are the error codes 44 and 94, which would occur without this Thermactor mod. They say that those codes won't hurt your performance, but I don't want them there anyway. These passages are for "upstream" air, and the Oxygen sensors will tell the computer if the upstream air isn't there when it should be.

    So I brought the heads, lower intake manifold, some fasteners, and an 8 amp corded DeWalt drill out to the garage, and made shavings.



    The main Thermactor passage goes through this hole and all the way out the other side, on all Windsor heads which the factory put in Fox bodied vehicles. I don't have access to the kind of tooling which Ford used to do this, so I drilled only to the rearmost exhaust port on each head. (Actually above it.) Doing it this quarter assed way, I'll avoid having to tap a thread for the proper plug at the fronts of the heads.

    For what will be the driver's side head you will need a fairly long drill bit, as it's over 4 inches to the center of the #8 exhaust port. The one I initially selected was long enough but stopped cutting, short of the port. I then tried a narrower (and shorter) bit, and was able to get close enough. I ended up drilling the segment from the port passage at an angle, from the upper rear corner of the port, in order to meet the barely-deep-enough main passage. So if you're looking at the side of the head, the passage would be pointing to 2:00, as it goes upward and rearward. The passenger side port passage was easily drilled straight up, at 12:00.
    This is why my main passage holes are two different sizes.

    On the passenger side head, it's less than three inches to the center of the #4 rear port, so you'll probably already have a drill bit long enough to do the job.




    I then drilled through the roof of the exhaust port, and into the passage I'd just drilled. I left the heads standing on end for this, and knew that I'd reached the right place when a bunch of spray lube and WD-40 and metal shavings came out...



    I used the same bit for both legs of the passage on the passenger side head, but did not make note of the size. I also eye-balled my angle from the ports into the main passages, and as it seems thus far, was successful.

    I then bolted the heads to the lower intake manifold, so I could mock up locations for the holes for the crossover tube's mounting bolts:



    The heads and intake will stand up fairly level, with a block of wood under the driver's side front of the "assembly."
    I held the tube in place, and marked the hole locations, and drilled them to a depth which I'd eyeballed. I was lucky, and got deep enough on both heads.

    I ran a 5/16ths" - 18 - H3 - 4F taper tap into the holes, and ended up wishing I'd had a non-tapered tap as well, but an extra bolt of the proper size made it good enough to thread the proper bolts deep enough to secure the tube tightly to both heads. I'd bought the taper variety, because I also eyeballed the drill bit which I used to drill the bolt holes. I knew it was at least narrow enough...


    That looks like a crack between the new bolt hole and the freeze plug, but doesn't appear on the head as I look at it now. It's most likely the product of a crappy cell phone camera, and the filth and crud on the head.

    Now I just need to disassemble and clean them, and install new seals and the valve springs, and they will be ready to bolt onto my car. I sure hope it all works right.

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