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  1. #1

    Default Why Restore an extremely Rusty FourEye?

    I thought this could be an interesting conversation.

    I didn't want to seem like I was picking on anyone so I didn't want to post in any one restoration thread and risk offending someone. Everyone on this forum wastes money on Mustangs, absolutely, DEFINITELY myself included. I get that. That's why we are here. I get why one would spend more than the value of a car to make it their own. Totally understandable. If ALL you could find anywhere in the US are rusted out shells well then we have no choice. But that's just not the case.

    What I don't get is why some in the Rust Belt will take on a Four-Eye that needs full floor pans, front frame rails, wheel houses, quarter panels, doors and fenders and start with that. I live in the South and you can (still in 2020) buy a totally rust free Fox roller down here for $600-$1,000 depending on what you want. And there's many dry areas of the country like AZ, not just the South. Or maybe one that has a couple rust issues but nothing like what I am talking about. If you try even just a little you can find one that's a whole car for not much more and then sell the drivetrain and what you don't use.

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...68#post1926568

    Is it a labor of love I guess? I can understand that. The metal work is cathartic to some people maybe? Is It actually relaxing to those who are good at it? I do absolutely get how it would be rewarding. To start with something like that and end up with a complete solid car must be EXTREMELY rewarding and give a lot of self-satisfaction. I can see how that would be a motivation.

    I just think even if you don't do any smart shopping and pay $1,000 for a plane ticket. Spend $600 on food and lodging for a couple nights (really? That'd be staying in a Hilton resort somewhere) and even $900 on a solid roller. Then you got another $600 to get it shipped. You've got $3,100 in a roller that needs none to very little metal work and it's in your driveway. I think everyone on here would admit that those are EXTREME NUMBERS I gave and anyone could do it for far less in reality. I'm old and I would still make it a fun road trip and not even buy a plane ticket and sleep in a roach motel. Is that not better than all the money in China metal panels and fitment issues and the hundreds and hundreds of hours of your time and materials and welding and grinding and seam sealer?

    EDIT: I guess my point is I know technically the three years of your labor you put into it is "Free" but...is it really? I am sure if you do the math on "free" labor you CAN do it cheaper than my example of buying a solid roller but.....
    Last edited by homer302; 07-01-2020 at 03:29 PM.

  2. #2
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Default

    All of your points are valid and hard to argue you with. I can't speak for others, but many of my projects are what they are due to the fact that as a Father of 3 and a Husband, my play money is often limited or none existent. My wife and daughters don't have my passion for Fox Mustangs or even really cars for that matter, so the money I spend on it doesn't make sense to any of them. I also would have a big problem dropping $3100 into a roller even if its perfect in every way as my wife would come unglued and personally I am too cheap to spend that on one since I lived most of my life in the south and have bought many of my project Foxes for literally less than $500 each. Everyone is a diamond in the rough at best and probably more realistically a decent parts car more often than not.

    I am not a stock guy 99% of the time, so buying a running/driving perfect example generally doesn't get me excited since I feel like I am paying for things that I am only going to change, get rid of, throw away, etc. So I tend to buy the cheaper rollers/basket cases since it saves me $$ and I don't worry about what is missing. I know I would do more driving of Foxes if I bought better/nicer cars, but I apparently enjoy the building of them as much or maybe more than the driving.

    The only really rusty project I have taken on is my 82 RS and that was a complete and original car. That is a labor of love that I didn't want to see crushed or parted out. Otherwise it would have made a decent parts car at best. The rest of my Foxes have little to no major rust repair, so doesn't really fit your discussion above. I know my labor is not "Free" but it is easier to spend without the wife noticing and since I do virtually all of my own automotive work, it does save me $$ in the long run on my projects. Although I do admit that as I am getting older, the idea of working for months/years on these projects is becoming less appealing the older I get. Who knows maybe I will change at some point or may I will just get the projects done and actually drive them finally.
    Last edited by wraithracing; 07-01-2020 at 05:21 PM.
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Stalled RestoModification
    1984 SVO Still Waiting Restoration
    1986 GT Under going Wide Body Conversion Currently

    Current Capris:
    1981 Capri Roller
    1981 Capri Black Magic Roller Basket Case
    1982 Capri RS 5.0/4spd T-top Full Restoration Stalled in TX
    1984 Capri RS T-top Roller
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts

  3. #3

    Default

    If you have to ask, then you might not be getting it.
    Last edited by massacre; 07-01-2020 at 06:31 PM.
    79 Zephyr, 4.6L 4v/4r70w swap, with team z front and rear suspension, 8.8 and upgraded brakes and coil overs. Running Holley Terminator X Max.

  4. #4
    FEP Super Member onetrackrider's Avatar
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    Default

    This baffles me too, IMHO shipping costs whole lot less than rust repair...
    Current rides:
    89 LX 5.0, 5 -spd..the Lemon
    86 RS Capri 5.0 Auto...
    86 LX Colorado SSP 5.0 5-spd (Sadly Sold)
    85.5 SVO, Finally Got Boost
    83 RS Capri 5.0, 5-spd (another sadly sold)

  5. #5
    FEP Power Member Broncojunkie's Avatar
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    I have an 86 coupe I've been thinking about parting. Floors are literally gone, but shock towers are good. Doors rusted. A little beat up but otherwise solid, from what I can see. My buddy started cutting out floor pans for me, but the car got pushed aside (my choice). I just found a couple clean doors for it and I bought new floors and cross section early last year. Oh, and a tubular lower radiator support (that was rusty too). I figure I'll uncover more rust at some point.

    This one may not be a total basket case like what you're referring to, but it's relatable because, to me, it almost isn't worth fooling with. The main reason I'm keeping it is because i just can't fathom trashing one of these cars if I don't absolutely have to. My welding/fabricating skills are at "beginner" level. If I were good at this stuff, I would consider taking on a rougher project.
    79 Pace Car - 331, t5
    79 Pace Car- 302, 4 spd
    79 Cobra - working on 351w, t5
    82 Capri- working on 302, t5
    82gt - working on 408w, c4

  6. #6
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    Default rust

    Only reason I did this one, it was the only blue 84 svo ordered by a Factory Executive. It was actually a lot more work than it looks like.
    Attached Images Attached Images    
    Kendal

  7. #7

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    If I didn’t have rusty mustangs to work on what the hell would I do with my time, learn to play golf?

    If I golfed a couple nights a week and Sunday afternoon all year, at the end of the year all i would have is a used set of golf clubs and an empty wallet.

    When I work on cars at the end I still have the empty wallet, but I have a full garage.

    Sometimes it’s not the destination but the journey. If I wanted to just drop cash on a reliable mustang the ford dealer has a whole row of them, but that’s not the point is it!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  8. #8
    FEP Super Member webestang's Avatar
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    Single, no kids, 3 Mustang's. Yep.

    Scotty
    1985 Fox Notch 4-banger Ranger tube header Eastwood Royal Blue
    1988 Fox LX 5.0 AOD Vert BBK 170mph speedo Candy Apple Red
    1999 Mustang Coupe V6 Auto Chrome Yellow -Daily Driver.
    Past Pony's.....
    68 Coupe Inline-6 3-Speed-Man. Primer
    78 II Hatch 302 3-Speed-Auto Sunroof Black
    81 4-Eye Coupe 4-Banger 4-Speed-Man. White

  9. #9
    FEP Power Member ccurtin's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by webestang View Post
    Single, no kids, 3 Mustang's. Yep.
    Married, 3 kids, started on the Capri project as a break from the day to day stress.

    Why?
    - daughter going into middle school, needed a break from the drama (2nd daughter was right behind her ...)
    - stressful job that I was burnt out from, needed a break from 'computer' things
    - no interest in golf, drinking coffee, playing pool, drinking etc. (I set a $150 month budget and stuck to it most of the time. Paint and head/cam were only exceptions. Golf would have been more than that a month!)
    - Allowed me to engage my creative skills in something I knew almost nothing about. Hours and hours researching parts, how to test, rebuild or replace parts, upholster a seat, assemble an engine, install a transmission etc.
    - added a physical activity element. Most days when I got to actually do something ended up sweaty and sore
    - learned a ton of things. A big part of the work burn out was lack of learning new things. This car helped me satiate that part of my brain.

    At the end will I get my money out of the car? Heck no. But I have something I feel proud about, something I can continue to learn about, enhance, fix etc is worth the spend.
    I'm an FEP Paid Supporter and proud of it. Are you?

    1984 Capri Turbo RS - Alive after 7 years! Build Thread
    2018 Mustang GT - daily driver

  10. #10

    Default

    For me it’s about passing on the skills and passion onto my kids. I’ve never asked my kids if they wanted to... since they were 4 years old I just invited them to join me in working in the garage. Now 20+ cars later I’m redoing an 83 Mustang that had more rust then I’d like and more body work then I’d like but it’s been invaluable in teaching my 15 year old son. He soaks up welding and grinding now. At first As a 10+ year old he was afraid when working on my 69 Chevelle, 72 Nova or even the 83 Capri because all were nice solid cars. This 83 Mustang is low risk and low pressure. We’ve fix a ton of issues including dropping in a motor and making it run. The main difference is that he’s going from watching and doing with a bit of fear to confidence. I’ll buy a project car and risk that.

    it was said above and I’ll second it... I enjoy the research and the work in building as much as the driving after it’s done.

  11. #11
    FEP Super Member JTurbo's Avatar
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    I resto-modded "The Rotter" over several years. It was def a challenge and I also didn't want to see the car head to the JY. It pushed my skill levels to areas that I'd never before done. But I learned a lot and I'm happy with the result. It was also an outlet, time in the garage let me clear my head. I've done 99% of the work to this car. Main exception is replacement of the windshield and the rear hatch glass. If I had to pay someone else to do the work, forget it. I couldn't afford it. I also like the sense of accomplishment when I look at what I started with compared to where the car is now.

    Also did a number of other cars over the years. But I'll admit that I'm burned out right now. I'm actually just happy to take a ride in the SVO as opposed to work on the 82.


    I was planning on finishing up the half a dozen items on the 82 and put it on the road this year. But I'm pushing that out 12 months due to COVID.....

    Last edited by JTurbo; 07-03-2020 at 12:16 PM.
    1979 Indy Pace Car Mustang 302 / 5spd
    1982 Mustang GT T-Top 302 / 4spd
    1986 SVO Mustang - 1C

  12. #12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wraithracing View Post
    ...as a Father of 3 and a Husband, my play money is often limited or none existent.
    This seems to support my theory, not yours, LOL. How, in the world do you have TIME to do the work yourself? HaHa. Not that this is an argument, just a discussion. My $3,100 example I provided is ridiculous actually. Let's be serious. Anyone with sense would just find someone local and pay them $100 to go check it out or make sure they get a ton of good pictures and just send the guy $600 for the roller and pay the $750 to ship it and that's where 99% of people would be in my example. $1,450 for a solid car in the driveway. Who would buy a plane ticket and hotel rooms and all for a $600 roller? I paid $600 for my turbo project and then traded a friend for some work and got it delivered for free. It was totally rust free. I was just trying to exaggerate my point that it just has to be cheaper to start with a solid car once both cars have crossed the finish line. And like you said, you aren't a "stock" type of person so if it's all going to be modded anyway, what difference does it make what you start with? You'd be buying coilovers instead of frame rails and floor pans.

  13. #13

    Default

    Here in Canada anything with solid shock towers is $5k and up.
    And shipping to Canada is an interesting experience to say the least.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  14. #14
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by homer302 View Post
    This seems to support my theory, not yours, LOL. How, in the world do you have TIME to do the work yourself? HaHa. Not that this is an argument, just a discussion. My $3,100 example I provided is ridiculous actually. Let's be serious. Anyone with sense would just find someone local and pay them $100 to go check it out or make sure they get a ton of good pictures and just send the guy $600 for the roller and pay the $750 to ship it and that's where 99% of people would be in my example. $1,450 for a solid car in the driveway. Who would buy a plane ticket and hotel rooms and all for a $600 roller? I paid $600 for my turbo project and then traded a friend for some work and got it delivered for free. It was totally rust free. I was just trying to exaggerate my point that it just has to be cheaper to start with a solid car once both cars have crossed the finish line. And like you said, you aren't a "stock" type of person so if it's all going to be modded anyway, what difference does it make what you start with? You'd be buying coilovers instead of frame rails and floor pans.
    Apparently I really don't have the time since none of my Foxes are done right now! I have to wrap up this 86 Bronco so I can get back on my Foxes and quickly!

    I do understand your point and I assumed you were exaggerating the initial cost/investment. I do agree with you that many times I would have been money and time ahead on several projects had I started with a better or more of a car initially. I did go to Texas A&M, so that explains why I am a little slow to learn. (Those from TX will get that joke! ) Although just to show you how hard headed I am, my buddy and I finished a job outside of Denver, jumped in the truck and headed to Kansas City to pick up my $250 84 RS T-top shell from a member here on FEP. Capri does have an interior and is basically rust free, but that's it! Still I saved it from the crusher and have a good road trip story to tell.
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Stalled RestoModification
    1984 SVO Still Waiting Restoration
    1986 GT Under going Wide Body Conversion Currently

    Current Capris:
    1981 Capri Roller
    1981 Capri Black Magic Roller Basket Case
    1982 Capri RS 5.0/4spd T-top Full Restoration Stalled in TX
    1984 Capri RS T-top Roller
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts

  15. #15
    FEP Power Member
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    The only reason I could justify tackling a fox project that needs major rust repair would be if it's a special car.

    Like a Pace car, or SVO, or t-top coupe, or Black Magic Capri, or 93 Cobra, or Mclaren, or genuine LTD LX.


    But anything built in large numbers doesn't make sense to me.

  16. #16
    FEP Super Member NAVYCAT's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TNT View Post
    The only reason I could justify tackling a fox project that needs major rust repair would be if it's a special car.

    Like a Pace car, or SVO, or t-top coupe, or Black Magic Capri, or 93 Cobra, or Mclaren, or genuine LTD LX.


    But anything built in large numbers doesn't make sense to me.
    No ANY CAPRI needs to be saved! lol
    2017 Ford Explorer Sport (DD) 1986 Capri 5.0 Silver/Red
    1969 Falcon XW GTHO coupe (SOLD) went to Australia
    Past 4 eyes-
    4th. 1981 Capri "White" Black Magic I6
    3rd. 1984 Capri RS V8 Black/grey
    2nd. 1984 Capri RS V8 White/red
    1st. 1984 SVO Grey/grey (traded it for a worn out 1970 BOSS 302)
    Both '84 Capri's vin# were 10 away from each other
    U.S. NAVY 1980-2009

  17. #17
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Default

    The flip side to this coin is

    my money, replaceable and worth it to me

    my car, special to me ...... for lots and lots of reasons. Push come to shove I keep it for many reasons.


    The same type of personal traits are associated with guys that tend to keep their wife too, believe it or not.


    I'm still seriously looking at cracking into my rusted out 1/2 million mile 86GT if we can ever get my 85 wrapped up and on the road.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by erratic50 View Post
    The flip side to this coin is

    my money, replaceable and worth it to me

    my car, special to me ...... for lots and lots of reasons. Push come to shove I keep it for many reasons.


    The same type of personal traits are associated with guys that tend to keep their wife too, believe it or not.


    I'm still seriously looking at cracking into my rusted out 1/2 million mile 86GT if we can ever get my 85 wrapped up and on the road.
    So your answer is "Just because". That is a fair answer really. There is nothing wrong with BECAUSE I WANT TO. Also, rare and impossible to replace cars makes sense. Sentimental value is also immeasurable. If a car has that, it also can't be replaced. This is (still today but not sure how much longer it will be) America so anyone should be able to spend money on anything they want. Agree on that for sure. I'm not sure how "replaceable" money is though. Yes, you can earn more tomorrow when you go to work.

    Please allow me to digress here from the subject at hand for just a moment. The average car payment in the US is $554 in 2020. That has nothing to do with "restoring a rusted Fox" but it does relate to money being "replaceable". The average person in the US has a car payment from 30 years old all the way until they retire at 65. If a 30 year old would invest that $554 a month in a mutual fund (stock market) from the time they are 30 until they are 65, based on the ACTUAL history of the market including the Depression and the "Great Recession" and the " 2020 Covid Crisis", on average, that would grow into well over $2,000,000 dollars CASH when they are 65. It's actually way over that but you can pick any 35 year period you want and adjust for today's inflation and the result is the same. Yeah, every 5-10 years that same person would have to pull out some interest and go pay cash for a car. I get it. Nope, it wouldn't be a new car. Wouldn't really change the results. The stock market is way up over January 2020. So, is the money "replaceable"? I guess that depends on your definition of the word. You can make more tomorrow for sure.

    I know you're not saying you are deciding between spending money on restoring a car OR investing money. You can do both for sure. My point is, to me, money is not really "replaceable". When it's gone, it can no longer work for me. I have to work more for it.
    Last edited by homer302; 07-08-2020 at 05:47 PM.

  19. #19

    Default

    Money is replaceable in the sense that there is no attachment to specific money, it is fully interchangeable.
    If I have $100 in my wallet it doesn’t matter to me if that was from my first paycheque when I had my first summer job, or if it was from my most recent paycheque.
    And if my $100 bill got damaged I would happily exchange it for an Undamaged bill.

    Cars are different in that no two are the same even if identical. If I sold my ‘83 I could buy another car as a replacement, but it wouldn’t be my car that my dad and I bought when I was in high school and fixed up in my parents driveway.
    Even an identical ‘83 GLX Convertible would be the same as my car, at least not to me.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  20. #20
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    The problem with cars that aren't "yours" is that they don't share their history with you.

    If my car could talk I'd immediately shoot it to death on the spot. But with other cars there's no chance of finding something in it with a story that you know.

    Personally I've lived some of my very best and some of my worst days in my 86GT.

    For me there are a few things I've found while working on mine over the years.
    1) Directions to a very memorable party written on the back of a business card from a cousin who is long ago deceased. (and program for his funeral that's ridden with me since the day I helped put him in the ground - its been in the glovebox all these years later and that's where it will stay)

    2) A stupid gum wrapper stuffed up under the seat in a spring from a friend who went on to be a pro football player. The evidence he left behind after getting a hell ride one Saturday afternoon. (oh man that one was fun....)

    3) stuff my now wife left behind as we had some great times in our youth. We went your separate ways for years before getting back together and raising a family, etc.

    4) A few things that a playboy model left behind - I'll only describe that as a pretty good night in a sea of bad ones at the time.


    Then there is for sure a flood of other stuff too. Working on it in the garage with my dad and my son, etc.

  21. #21

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    Probably the biggest motivating factor why we deal with rusty cars is money pure and simple. Clean shells cost a lot more where things rust. If you possess the skills any car can be fantastic again with enough time. However I now make my living restoring cars and being in New England you can bet I see a LOT of rust. And with a $75/man hour current shop rate it adds up really fast for our customers. We're just finishing up an early bronco where the only original body panel is the tailgate. I love the work but I'm constantly amazed how much people will spend to make their dreams a reality. I've always worked on all my own stuff and have saved a few that perhaps shouldn't have been. But I have a bit different perspective now. Case in point is the 87 LX I picked up last month. 68k miles but had been sitting since 02 or 03. In a field. The gas tank dragged along by the fuel line as I pulled it out. It almost bent in half winching it up on the trailer. Front rails-completely shot, barely any floors, fenders missing from the molding down, rotted out door bottoms, the hatch latch ripped off the bottom with a little persuasion from a pry bar to get it open. Even the K member was rotted out. I actually tipped it on it's side to remove the trans and rear axle. The quad shocks and their mounts are still attached because they just ripped right off the rotted rear frame rails. I had a brief thought of restoring it when I first laid eyes on it. After all I do this for a living and most of the parts are available. But it would be years with the time I have on hand now for such things. But I got an 8.8, a near flawless set of aero interior plastics (which sorry I have grown to prefer), V8 87-up spindles, a T5, manual window regulators, a non-tilt column, A/C heater box, manual pedals with brackets, and a whole slew of other stuff for when I find a clean shell.
    86 Notch under construction

    2011 4Runner Trail edition
    2014 Suzuki V-Strom 650

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by KCoker View Post
    Only reason I did this one, it was the only blue 84 svo ordered by a Factory Executive. It was actually a lot more work than it looks like.
    Dang Kendal, you're more hardcore than I've seen for myself. Amazing result.
    84 Capri RS Turbo
    Vinemont, AL (formerly El Mirage, AZ)
    USAF 1986-2007 (Ret)

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by JTurbo View Post
    I resto-modded "The Rotter" over several years. It was def a challenge and I also didn't want to see the car head to the JY. It pushed my skill levels to areas that I'd never before done. But I learned a lot and I'm happy with the result. It was also an outlet, time in the garage let me clear my head. I've done 99% of the work to this car. Main exception is replacement of the windshield and the rear hatch glass. If I had to pay someone else to do the work, forget it. I couldn't afford it. I also like the sense of accomplishment when I look at what I started with compared to where the car is now.

    Also did a number of other cars over the years. But I'll admit that I'm burned out right now. I'm actually just happy to take a ride in the SVO as opposed to work on the 82.


    I was planning on finishing up the half a dozen items on the 82 and put it on the road this year. But I'm pushing that out 12 months due to COVID.....

    STILL amazed at what you did with this.
    84 Capri RS Turbo
    Vinemont, AL (formerly El Mirage, AZ)
    USAF 1986-2007 (Ret)

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by 85GT-79FJ40 View Post
    Probably the biggest motivating factor why we deal with rusty cars is money pure and simple. Clean shells cost a lot more where things rust. .
    You missed the point. Who says you are limited to ONLY buying shells where cars are rusty? It's 2020. That is far from a limitation. It's Very easy to find cheap, rust free shells still today in the south for $500-800 bucks. Pay to have them shipped. That was my point. I think most people just don't want to exert any effort to search for one and arrange shipping but I don't live where cars are rusty so I don't really know that's the case. Hence, that is why I was asking why folks who live where cars are rusty do it. Now, again as I said, I get emotional attachments etc. I totally understand all of that. "I've had it for 30 years" or "That was my Dad's car that he left me" There is no way to put a price on that. And as I also said, (at least for now) this is still America so if you just WANT to spend the money to do it or love the challenge of it all, that is also excellent. I was asking for opinions and that is what I got and I appreciate them all, yours included.

  25. #25

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    Yes but my point is it's not cheap to have a car shipped even 1000 miles. Especially one that doesn't run. I did that 10 years ago and even though the car (although a BMW and not a Mustang) was free and rust free it cost like $1500 then. So probably closer to $2k now. Add that to a $5-800 roller and you may have potentially eaten up a lot of your budget. Or your entire budget as was the case with the 84 RS I did a few years back. Rust free shells do exist up here though. They just cost more. Basically what it would cost to get one far away and have it shipped actually. I guess it all depends on one's budget. And like you said sometimes emotional attachment is the motivating factor. Certainly was the case for a former customer of our shop who spent $75k restoring a 70's fiat spider. Best one in the world is $20k but this particular one belonged to his son who had passed away. It had to be perfect and it had to be THAT car. And it was a mess.
    86 Notch under construction

    2011 4Runner Trail edition
    2014 Suzuki V-Strom 650

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