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  1. #1

    Default CFI with AOD to T5 swap questions

    hey guys, I have a question that ive tried to research, just want to ask here,
    has anybody done a t5 swap to a CFI 5.0? im wanting to attempt it on mine, the cfi runs fine, but i have trans problems, aswell as I simply want to have a manual vehicle to drive. it is currently CFI and runs well, i dont mind swapping to a carb but right now with all this pandemic and economic crisis, I need to get the vehicle moving quickly as where it is being stored could soon be in jeopardy, I have a donor t5 and bellhousing for a 5.0 I know the parts that i need for the fit up

    I do stilll wonder about wiring up my clutch safety switch, and reverse lights. I dont mind if i have to have to rig something up for the time being just to get it registered and moving.

    but my main question is are there any CFI manual swapped guys out there? I honestly think it will run just fine

  2. #2

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    I have heard that the throttle return is the problem, but I just can't see it. What difference could there be? I have also heard of adding a later year dashpot off a truck engine. I would just do it. Then let me know if it works!
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers
    GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721 intake
    K&N filter in stock dual snorkel
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons
    catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals
    Maximum Motorsports caster/camber plates and strut tower brace, 3.73 rear.
    Firehawk A/S 225/55/16 on LMR TRX r390 wheels (street)
    Federal 595 rs-rr 225/45/15 on 10 holes (race)
    Everything else stock and fully functional.

  3. #3
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    The issue is the M code Auto TFi doesn't have five key ingredients; they decided they didn't need more.

    Pepperoni,
    green peppers
    mushrooms,
    olive,
    chives.

    Ford never intended its 3.8 or 5.0's to have a stick shift.


    1) It has no low speed 5 speed Dual Sych TFi resolution to idle down to 475 rpm.

    2) Its Speed Density, but Ford made the 5.0 HO CFi non 5 speed, so it has no fine fettle response to low speed air flow. Its MAP/RPM table is ropey enough in an auto which wont idle below 650 rpm, ( Ford made the throttle bodies really H-U-G-E on the HO, so it has a narrow Volumetric Table which makes idle signal loss a real issue with a manual),

    3) Ford moved the stall speed up from 1650 RPM on the SO, and its got a 2350 rpm stall converter. The TFi 6 degree ignition tip in was added to replace the Idle Control Solenoid "ISC" (IAB,IAC) found on all the other small throttle body 3.8's and 5.0's. When you pop in a 5 speed, the ignition timing will be different under a no load situation.

    4. The stick shift NSS circuit on Fords 4-bbl HO Manuals and the O2 circuit on SEFI 5.0's has a specially woven Anti Audi 5000 system (see https://www.autosafety.org/audi-sudden-acceleration/), the purpose was to control the idle speed under HVAC and Throttle Solenoid Positioner (TSP) operation, then in EFi 5.0's, to control the base idle real good for emissions. The A/C cut out on Wide Open throttle, and the two stage accessory speed control "two speed accessory drive" (TSAD) were penciled in solutions. Ford were nervous as heck about the Cruise Control, ISC, or TSP or A/C kicker taking control of the curb idle at cruise, causing a Sudden Acceleration Incident. The Auto was the most likely problem, but a 5 speed will suffer a Sudden Acceleration Incident if the wrong parts are engergized.

    5. All that early jazz was mapped without a Vehicle Speed Sensor. Not an issue with an auto. With Speed Density manual, a test loop to see if the speedo's Variable Reluctor speed sensor is polling is a great way to trigger the ISC activity.


    IMHO, You have three solutions, each is fairly easy.

    Option A is to copy how GM did it in there Throttle Body engines, but use a Ford hardware solution used in the auto 1983-1987 3.8 V6.

    Take a leaf out of the 1985-1995 5.0/5.7 Chev TBi and Astro/Caparice 4.3 TBi,
    the 1983-1988 3.8 V6 Ford CFi, and
    the Feedback 1978-1985 Variable Venturi VV7200, and fit ISC/IAC/IAB control.


    GM TBi's did the IAC Fiddle Valve, which is a basic Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) and they go hand in hand with Electronic Spark Timing (EST), the 4, 7 or 8 pin HEI's. They are not as advanced as Fords TFi, but they sure works well with the 7 pin HEI and Block Learning Mode the Delco P3 CalPac has. I personally wouldn't ever downgrade to a GM HEI or CalPac/MemCal, but its strategy is perfectly formed.

    The Ford 3.8 CFi's used the IAC/IAB control, which is also PWM, and will work well.

    All the Feedback 78-85 VV7200's 2-bbls had a one way DC motor with PWM loop to control the curb idle below the TPS trigger point.

    That's how many the majority of linear actuators are controlled in automotive control.

    jeremyp here just uses the PWM facility in Arduino, and you can control the base idle just like Ford did with the VV7200.


    https://youtu.be/KVogEmmQZTs



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVogEmmQZTs


    The RPM and air flow act as feedback. A change in the TPS voltage indicates that the curb idle is maxed out, and no longer the strategy to use. This was the 3.8 liter Essex 90 CFi work-a-round to get a big 2-bbl Throttle body to work on a small 231 cube engine.

    On the CFi 5.0 HO M code AOD, the whole idle RPM control is via the spark timing "tip-in".

    On the CFi 3.8 The ISC is for "slower" and more course RPM control.

    On later Port Bank and Sequential EFi' s, they used a blend of ISC and TFi "tip-in".

    So your work around is to grab a Dual Sync distributor, and the CFi 3.8 ISC, and blend the two together.

    Option B is going MegaSquirt because it is fundamentally tied into the Ford and Toyota, Nissan style Ignition system. It works well, giving you more control in a largely Ford 60 pin package. Sadly, the Ford TFI/Megasquirt setup is NOT well documented so it is a challenge to control the idle solely by ignition without ISC. However that is an option, and I have two sourced who can do that for you for a small outlay. My background is Toyota CFi, Nissana and CFi/Port EFi Flacon Sixes, and the whole reason for my total lack of love for the Chevy TBi isn't that it doesn't work,, itis brilliant. Its because MegaSquirt understands ignition better than any other system, and it has guys like James here, who have made it work on Toyotas and in line sixes, so a V8 Ford with CFi and TFi is dead easy.

    This is a 5 liter Chevy TBi with twin 54 lb/hr injectors on a tiny 240 Big Six Ford Ecconoline van...proving that big Throttle Bodies can work fine on manual small capacity engines with bad manifolding.



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY1MaDr_gwk

    James was able to run an MR2 with 10:1 compression 4AGE as a turbo with stock TPS and Ignition.

    Option C is to talk to EECIV.Org, and look at using the CFi 3.8 computer with its ISC, and re-tune the air fuel tables.

  4. #4

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    all of those options are well beyond my reach, and id bet most shade tree mechanics grasps, and thats alot of money to drop, Id rather just try it, or put a carb on it I appreciate it and im impressed by your knowledge, but i need a practical solution here, and one that wont require more than just one more purchase, and wrench work only. I see that people like you have a passion for this kinda stuff, I just want to drive the car. my desire to learn about
    auto mechanics stops abruptly at keeping it running.

    have you actually experienced this happening though? or have you seen this conversion done, and then fail in person? I understand there could be some driveability issues, i just need it to move itself i can worry about the fine tuning later, if its a big trouble im just going to get a carb, but im going to try it regardless

  5. #5

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    You could go for it, and if it is undriveable or dangerous, add a big honkn 2 barrel on it, or put a new intake on it and add a 4. However, to do that you will have to move to a whole new ignition system as well. The cheapest escape from your cfi might actually be a Holley sniper. They do make a big two barrel version and that way the manifold won't have to be swapped out. The sniper works with the tfi ignition.

    Be warned, it is nearly impossible to find the appropriate distributor for our engines. If you get anything aftermarket be prepared for gear composition issues and distributor shafts that are 5mm too long.
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers
    GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721 intake
    K&N filter in stock dual snorkel
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons
    catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals
    Maximum Motorsports caster/camber plates and strut tower brace, 3.73 rear.
    Firehawk A/S 225/55/16 on LMR TRX r390 wheels (street)
    Federal 595 rs-rr 225/45/15 on 10 holes (race)
    Everything else stock and fully functional.

  6. #6
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Yes, we do TBi swaps all the time down here. 1988-1991 3.2 or 3.9 liter OHC Falcon 6 cylinder Central Fuel injection into Ford Cortinas with the Pinto 2000, or twn CFI's on Cleveland 302'sand 351's, or 460 Big Blocks. Anything thats crazy, just might work.


    What your asking is easy enough. The idle circuit just has to have operation off the main part of the TPS.

    From our resident US in line six cylnder EFi gurus elseware.

    https://fordsix.com/viewtopic.php?f=...585437#p585437

    Quote Originally Posted by 67Straightsix
    Quote Originally Posted by pmuller9

    The I.A.C. valve should not be opened unless the engine rpm tries to go below target idle rpm.
    That would not happen under boost. Is there some condition you are thinking about that would tell the ECU to activate the I.A.C. valve?
    Thanks - This is my first attempt at building a turbo charged engine so I'm probably asking obvious questions - I just want to make sure I cover all the bases and not assume anything (that will come back and bite me :shock: )



    You learn form the Ford book, and transfer it to a bigger or smaller car, and talk with people bout budget and the more you know, the more you can do.

  7. #7

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    Dude just go for it, I just sent this reply to your post on a different thread:

    Sorry man it's been a while wince I've been on here. Yeah my car was CFI when I first did the T5 swap. It ran ok but had a slight hesitation going into first gear, but other than that it was ok with the CFI. I ran it like that for about 3 months before I went to a carburetor.

  8. #8

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    Was your cfi perfect or did it have preexisting issues? Just curious. Glad to hear it worked if even for only a few months. Did you move to a four barrel or stick with 2?
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers
    GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721 intake
    K&N filter in stock dual snorkel
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons
    catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals
    Maximum Motorsports caster/camber plates and strut tower brace, 3.73 rear.
    Firehawk A/S 225/55/16 on LMR TRX r390 wheels (street)
    Federal 595 rs-rr 225/45/15 on 10 holes (race)
    Everything else stock and fully functional.

  9. #9

    Default

    Just so it.

    I ran a sefi 302 s.o. with a t-5. There was no manual s.o. motor, so there was no computer options to swap.

    There wasn't a stumble at idle, but I did have to jump the nss so it always idled at 800 rpm just like if it was in neutral. Starting the car out in 1st was touchy. Think of it like starting out an I-4 vs a v-8. Except if the rpms drop too much, it shuts off instead of trying to idle.

    Pretty much that sums up all issues I personally had with an auto computer. I just tapped the gas when starting out in first because the computer did not expect a drop in rpms.

    The gas mileage was stellar, car had all kinds if power compared to before, and took it from a wounded l
    Car with a 45mph top speed to a cross country machine.
    2 1986 cougars (both 4 eyed and 5.0)
    1 1987 cougar

  10. #10
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Yeah, Just do it,

    but be aware that there is no progressive gear, power steering or A/C related base idle speed control like the 3.8 CFi and 5.0 SEFi's do.

    That always becomes problematic in a cold start environment, and you don't want it happening at a level crossing, or on glare ice, or at 110 degrees when your A/C is on at the lights in the city.

    When the torque converter, or power steering loads or lights or HVAC load up the engine, an IAC equipped car compensates the base idle speed thru the EECIV program. Ignition, or NSS protocol spikes it up to stop stalling.

    Going manual trans, you become the "base idle spiker".


    The massive economy and acceleration advantages with a 5 speed stick shift are huge. Uniformly, you add the equivalent of 50 flywheel net hp in the zone where your automatic transmission is on stall or slushing thru' the gears. When 86-88 Fords were breaking flat 13's in the 5 liter T5's, hi stall AOD's were doing 13.9s.

    A stock factory 225 hp 87 would do 14.7 secs factory with 3.08's, and then do 13 flat at the drags with 10 minute mod* 255 hp.

    The same car with a 2350 stall AOD would have trouble breaking 15.7's factory and 13.9's at the drags with the best Hi Stall converter (*without the a/c and power steering, stone cold steve Austin thermostat, SPOUT reset for max advance, and EGR pipe and temp sender disengaged, dried ice on the intake, buffed tires yadda yadda yadda).

    So with a good SEFI 5.0, a T5 conversion is just like adding exactly 50 hp of peak power at the flywheel if you can keep the wheels connected. The fuel consumption improvement from not loosing an bunch of torque and power through the transmission is like 3 mpg in the city, and about 4 mpg on the highway if the gear ratios are the same.

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