Close



Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 130
  1. #1

    Default Clutch Cable Adjustment--Maximum Motorsports Components

    Okay, so I've got a new Valeo clutch, new clutch fork, National throwout bearing, Maximum Motorsports cable, quadrant, firewall adjuster, and pedal height adjuster.

    For the record, I only bought the pedal height adjuster because the square hole in my pedal lever is worn, so I thought it was causing slop in the pedal.



    You can take the pedal and pull it up about a half inch when it's at the rest position. It moves only the pedal lever, not the quadrant. I thought that was because of the square hole in the pedal being worn such that it wasn't properly engaging the square place on the shaft. But, after installing the pedal height adjuster, that problem remained. I decided to ignore that for now.

    ANYWAY, on to the problem at hand. This problem has been present since before I installed the pedal height adjuster. The pedal action seems very loose and imprecise. And it's hard putting the car in gear. It seems to me like the clutch is not being allowed to fully disengage. It will engage right off the floor seemingly no matter what I do. Today, I tried removing the spacer from the cable at the quadrant end, thinking certainly that will allow the cable end to travel further back at the fork and allow the clutch to disengage.



    Put it all back together, and adjusted the firewall adjuster way out to pull the cable tight, which made sense in my mind because in order to engage the quadrant the same way it did before, the firewall adjuster would need to be turned that much farther out.



    Started the engine and.... it made no difference whatsoever. The pedal feels the same, engagement still happens right off the damn floor, and it's very hard to put the car in gear without allowing it to roll a little--like as if the clutch is not fully disengaging.

    WTF am I doing wrong here? I really thought pulling that spacer out was the answer! I don't want to drive the car with the clutch slipping the entire time! What do I do?!

    Thanks
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  2. #2
    FEP Senior Member Tigger's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Portland Oregon
    Posts
    619

    Default

    Wow. That is a lot. My MM firewall adjuster on my Saleen is maybe out a 1/4”. Not sure if that is normal but that is where mine is and works fine for me.

    So if your car is hard to put into gear that tells me your clutch is not engaging enough. When I bought my Saleen, it had a brand new clutch and clutch cable from the Clutch Doctor. Every 1500 miles or so the car would be hard to put into first at a stop light. The wife would take the floor mat out to get the extra pedal travel to get the car home. I would adjust the cable and sure enough 1500 miles or so later it was hard to shift at a light again. After 2-3 years of that, the cable had stretch so much that I had to remove the fork cover in order to drive it. After that I bought my self an early Xmas present and put in the MM kit. I have had to adjust it once since installing it.

    I would double check your installation down below at the transmission. I do not recall how the cable attaches around the clutch fork but maybe you need to increase the space between the fork and the fixed end of the cable If that makes sense This should make the cable tighter and reduce the amount of the adjustment. Just my thought. Good luck
    67 Mustang Coupe
    96 Tangerine GT
    86 Saleen #179

  3. #3

    Default

    My MM firewall adjuster is out 1/4" to 3/8" and pedal feel and disengagement is spot on. I would double check the clutch fork and the pivot ball it rides on inside the bellhousing. It sounds to me that the fork isn't pivoting as needed without uncontrolled movement somewhere within the bellhousing.

    Another thought would be to measure clutch fork movement while depressing the pedal to verify full travel at the trans. If full travel is achieved, time to drop the trans....
    Jeremiah

    1986 Mustang GT 5spd
    1998 Explorer Limited 5.0AWD (Wife's Ride)
    1999 Ranger Ex-Cab 3.0 5spd (My Winter Beater)

  4. #4

    Default

    I'm thinking I'm definitely adjusting it out too far. Maybe that explains why it feels the same as before.

    Haven't gotten back out there. I need to jack it up so I can see what's happening at the bellhousing.

    I should mention too, the flywheel and pivot ball are new too.

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  5. #5

    Default

    If you need a second set of eyes Brad, let me know. I'll mob down in the 86 and help you out.
    Jeremiah

    1986 Mustang GT 5spd
    1998 Explorer Limited 5.0AWD (Wife's Ride)
    1999 Ranger Ex-Cab 3.0 5spd (My Winter Beater)

  6. #6

    Default

    A bad pressure plate can cause the problems that you have described. I had a similar problem and replaced everything except the pressure plate and couldn't fix the problem. Finally, I decided it must be a problem in the pressure plate and tried replacing it, although it was only a year old. When I changed the pressure plate it solved the problems. Just a word of caution, if the clutch isn't fully releasing and it is hard to put the trans in first gear it can ruin the first gear synchronizer very quickly.

  7. #7
    FEP Super Member mmb617's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Altoona, PA
    Posts
    4,175

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Two86fiveoh's View Post
    Another thought would be to measure clutch fork movement while depressing the pedal to verify full travel at the trans. If full travel is achieved, time to drop the trans....
    I agree with this. If you aren't getting full travel of the clutch fork then the issue is somewhere in the fork, pivot ball or throw out bearing. If you are getting full travel the issue is with either the clutch disc or pressure plate, or possibly the throw out bearing. Either way the transmission needs dropped. With the transmission out of the way the problem should be obvious.
    408/T5/3.73's

    We're not fast racers, we're more what's known as half fast racers.

  8. #8
    FEP Supporter Broncojunkie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Barboursville, WV
    Posts
    1,223

    Default

    It seems like I always have to shim the pivot ball stud with aftermarket clutches. A couple thick washers usually does the trick. What I do is stab the transmission in and immediately check the clutch fork. It should be toward the rear of the bellhousing to give plenty of room for travel. If not, the pivot ball stud needs shimmed.
    79 Pace Car - 331, t5
    79 Cobra - working on 351w, t5
    86 coupe - rotbox roller
    86 coupe - working on 408w, c4
    88gt - 302 efi, t5

  9. #9
    FEP Power Member gmatt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Chicago, south subs
    Posts
    1,942

    Default

    Check to see if your firewall is flexing? just spitballin'

  10. #10

    Default

    Damn. Pulling the trans on this car SUCKS because the engine is moved to the rear holes on the k-member and there is NO room between the bellhousing and tunnel. Some of you might remember what a battle it was for me to get the trans back in this last time.

    I'll tell you, it certainly doesn't feel like I'm getting full travel. It will be pretty lame if i have to shim the pivot ball though. The original clutches were Valeo, weren't they?

    Quote Originally Posted by Two86fiveoh's View Post
    If you need a second set of eyes Brad, let me know. I'll mob down in the 86 and help you out.
    Thanks, I may take you up on that!
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  11. #11
    FEP Supporter Broncojunkie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Barboursville, WV
    Posts
    1,223

    Default

    Zephyr, unhook the clutch cable from the fork and see how much play there is. You should be able to tell immediately if there's too much. FWIW, the clutch in my pace car is Valeo and I had to shim the pbs.
    79 Pace Car - 331, t5
    79 Cobra - working on 351w, t5
    86 coupe - rotbox roller
    86 coupe - working on 408w, c4
    88gt - 302 efi, t5

  12. #12

    Default

    I will definitely look into that.

    But just for a quick tangent here... What happens when you adjust the firewall adjuster out too much? Mr. Hidley educated me on this in the past, but I can't find the damn thread. Near as I can tell, when you adjust the firewall adjuster too far out, it will pull the end of the cable, towards the front of the car, and therefore the OTHER cable end at the clutch fork will be moved towards the REAR of the car such that the clutch fork is moved AWAY from the PP fingers and make it so actuating the clutch pedal will NOT release the pressure plate from the clutch disc all the way. Is that right?! It doesn't seem right, but it does jive with what's happening with my car.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  13. #13

    Default

    Wait... no, I'm wrong. Moving the firewall adjuster outward too far would increase the distance between the end of the sleeve and the cable end, which in turn would DECREASE the distance between the sleeve end at the trans, and the cable end, pulling the clutch fork/throwout bearing TOWARDS the Pressure Plate fingers, moving the pressure plate AWAY from the clutch disc, causing slippage.

    That does make more sense, but does not jive with what's happening on my car. It must be something else in addition.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  14. #14

    Default

    Sent you a PM Brad.
    Jeremiah

    1986 Mustang GT 5spd
    1998 Explorer Limited 5.0AWD (Wife's Ride)
    1999 Ranger Ex-Cab 3.0 5spd (My Winter Beater)

  15. #15
    FEP Senior Member 87gtVIC's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Whitestone, NY
    Posts
    944

    Default

    I have the clutch pedal height adjuster in my Vic. I have that play you describe in the pedal as well. I dont like that O-ring around the threaded shaft idea. I blame the play on that. You can pull up on the pedal (after it as completely pushed in) and feel it come to stop and then move a bit more. It does not cause me any issues and everything works perfectly.

    I am running a MM clutch cable, MM firewall adjuster, the little spacer around the quadrant end of cable (modified shorter) and a double hook quadrant (needed the double hook to make proper disengagement).

    I too believe your issue is inside the bell housing.

  16. #16

    Default

    So, here's a question. How do I know if I need to shim my pivot ball? And how do I know how much? I'd like to avoid pulling the trans back out several times if possible. Doing it once will be bad enough.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  17. #17

    Default

    I would not worry about that pedal slop as most have it and it doesn't seem to really matter with other things correctly in place.

    As mentioned above - double check your firewall metal and if its giving a lot you'll need to re-enforce it.

    I've done countless clutch jobs on my 86GT in the 1/2 million miles I've beat on it. I think I have receipts for about 14 clutches or so and I've done them all myself, plus some in a few other foxes over the years. It took me a good long while to get them figured out and I drove some pretty rotten setups before I got it figured out. These days the clutches in the cars I've played with feel like the cars did when they were brand new and they each have a performance clutch kit in them.

    There are a number of factors that contribute to clutch pedal feel and if the clutch disengages fully or not.

    Before concluding that pressure plate is "bad" there are a number of things you can do to try to work with what you have.

    Have a buddy come over and help you. Jack the car up and put it on stands. Put the car in neutral and feel the resistance at the tires. You could go to an old school "meter" style torque wrench on a lug nut. You're looking for an idea of how much force you need to turn the rear tire and it shouldn't take much.

    Now take the clutch cable off the fork. Find a way to use a bar or a pipe to move the fork by hand from under the car and have your friend check to see if the wheels will move about as freely with the fork in the release position.

    If you bring the fork all the way to its limit and you still don't get a reasonable release then I would agree..... there is a severe enough installation problem that the car needs to come apart. 99.9% of the time there are ways, while not ideal, to work around whats there.

    if you got a reasonable release, consider where it was and let's work on getting the resistance down and getting it to happen at the right place in the pedal travel.

    Look through the inspection cover. Is there a lot of scouring on the bearing retainer to the point their are gouges and chunks gone, etc, or does it look at least passible? I've had up to 1/16" of slop between the throwout bearing and the crappy factory aluminum retainer and still had clutch engagement and release. Difficult and I had to lube it along the way (see info below) but the stupid thing looked like an hour glass.

    What type of grease was used when the throwout bearing was installed? Things get HOT at the throwout bearing if you drive your car hard. In the cutch kits I've looked at in my time it seems like most do not use the correct type of grease for a performance application. Its regular old bearing grease, not even high temp. Heat turns some of the lesser grease out there into paste. Yes -- PASTE. I always use a moisture resistant grease that's very resistant to heat. The blue wheel bearing grease designed for marine trailer bearings works very well in my experience. Just don't go crazy and use too much because it will collect spent clutch disc particles over time and that doesn't help with pedal effort.

    What type of throwout bearing was used? I always take the ones that come in the kits and do like their name implies and throw them out. I've had bearings that came with clutch kits that were too tight on the retainer and I've had some that were too loose. I've had to tear back into a clutch jobs because of the piece of crap throwout bearing failing. These days its National or Timken or OEM only in my cars. School of hard knocks on that one.

    All of my T5's .... even the ones in storage.... have a one piece steel Astro bearing retainer too. Lesson learned on trying to install them myself though -- if you don't have the tools to check thrust and do it correctly don't try to install a retainer yourself as the transmission WILL fail as a result. With as many T5's as I've killed over the years its good that I have become friends with a few guys that build them professionally. Makes it easy to get stuff like this done.

    If you determine the throwout bearing is practically glued to the retainer as you try to wiggle the fork you can work around it without tearing it down. I've fed a rag around the bearing retainer using wire and scrubbed off the crappy grease at the edges that I could, cleaned it up with solvent (honestly I used gas if I remember right) then wiped it down with WD40, and applied high temp grease all via that rag trick before. There is a majority that you can't get to and it is more time consuming than dropping the transmission but I did not have a place to drop it at the time. For me, adding good quality grease worked and pedal effort was greatly reduced immediately and allowed me to get the rest of the mileage out of that clutch. I moved the fork back and forth in the slot by hand which helped. Not ideal.

    Now let's talk linkage working with what's there. You're limited to what you can do with the cable adjustment without taking the car apart, but there's no law that says you can't get creative. You may need a cable liner shim. Some will say washers on the transmission end. I find that the inside diameter of a pilot bearing slides right over the end of the clutch cable. It leaves about 1/8" of the cable outer's end available to go into the bellhousing. You can achieve similar stuff with the correct size lock washer but I've found in the past that one piece added here works better in the long run -- I've ran clutches like this for 50K miles plus of daily driver duty before without the fancy firewall adjuster - just the factory one. If its adjusted right in the end, don't worry about clutch life as it will remain the same usually. Add as much as you can down here so we can get that firewall adjuster threaded out just a few turns for future adjustment. It needs to be towards the firewall for geometry reasons.

    Now let's talk alignment. Your quadrant needs to align very close to perfectly with the firewall adjuster or you'll trash cables and have WAY too much pedal effort.

    You can shim the cable with the setup MM supplies if needed. I recommend getting so there is not very much adjuster threaded out. Being out a long ways seems to change the way the arc for the quadrant leavers on the cable and that increases effort greatly

    If you concluded above that you simply can't get enough throw in the release fork to release the clutch then let's consider why. A lot of replacement flywheels are simply wrong and move the clutch and pressure plate too far towards the front of the car away from the release fork and throwout bearing.

    That's my one beef with the Autozone flywheels. they are way out of whack from day one. They move the clutch and pressureplate too far forward vs stock. So do many of the other flywheels I've measured. Their 157 tooth 50 oz flywheel for 10.5" clutches is 22 lbs vs the factory 30 lbs. WAY easier on the transmission when you powershift them but you do have to get the pivot ball set in the correct place in relationship to the clutch, etc.

    You also see this if you turn the flywheel for a clutch job. Or in my case I got 13 out of the original flywheel -- needless to say I had bad geometry to work with.

    There are shims available that go on the back side of the crank before you bolt up the flywheel that help with this. In my case I had a stack of them and the flywheel was barely on the crank hub/flange but it worked. I've since learned about washers under the pivot ball or an adjustable pivot. Those really do also help.

    What I can tell you is that if your fork doesn't tend to rest at the rear or the slot when there's no cable on it you'll have some problems. I've gotten them to work when they are forward but the further forward they are the less leverage the fork tends to have and the more pedal effort you can expect. I like to see them where they lightly spring themselves to the rear of the slot. If they don't and you have a lot of pedal effort then this is most likely where everything is actually out of adjustment.

    another thing to consider is what is the condition of the thrust bearing. Too much thrust can make it almost impossible to get a clutch to disengage. Granted, Ive never replaced my thrust bearing on my car and its just fine currently. (knock on wood)

  18. #18

    Default

    Well, now I'm really overwhelmed. How much to just come fix it yourself?

    Few things to know: all the MM stuff I mentioned above, the Valeo clutch, and the flywheel are all brand new. Also, an Astro bearing retainer, and yes, I installed it without checking thrust. And a National throwout bearing that did not come with the dab of grease you said it would, haha. The flywheel is an SVE, and it wasn't cheap so it had better be right.

    Anyway, since all that stuff is new, there won't be any marks to tell us anything. I've put almost no miles on this car since putting it together. I used wheel bearing grease on the throwout bearing. More than enough. Maybe even too much.

    I was very careful setting up my quadrant and firewall adjuster alignment, so I'm pretty sure we're good there.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  19. #19
    FEP Super Member cb84capri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    lansing, mi
    Posts
    4,646

    Default

    The firewall adjuster essentially increases the length of the cable housing when you un-thread it from the firewall, which in turn tightens the cable. It does the same thing as the adjuster on the brake lever or shifter on a bicycle.

    What year is the pedal box in your car, and what cable are you using? What clutch fork? If it takes until the pedal hits the floor to only partially disengage the clutch, it sounds like there is a lot of slack in the cable. Is it loose at the clutch fork?

    Also, shimming the pivot ball out worsens the situation you have going on. Think about it, you move the pivot ball end out towards the rear of the car, the cable end of the fork moves forward.


    Also, I have seen a clutch fork break before in an '85.

    Cale

    I needed to think about it... and everything in italics is wrong so disregard it and laugh at my dumb ass, haha!
    Last edited by cb84capri; 05-22-2020 at 05:53 PM.

  20. #20

    Default

    Cable is a MM, and my clutch fork is a Summit brand (USA made) for the late Fox application. Pedal box is late Fox also.

    Wait, if you shim the pivot ball end out, it goes towards the front of the car, doesn't it?

    I'm going to try messing with it today. I haven't had ANY time for it this week until today. I've been moving the firewall adjuster all over. The engagement right off the floor doesn't change. It's so weird.

    All the MM directions say to do is set it so it takes 5-8 pounds to push the pedal so many inches. Since I have no way to measure that... it doesn't really help me.
    Last edited by ZephyrEFI; 05-22-2020 at 05:43 PM.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  21. #21
    FEP Super Member cb84capri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    lansing, mi
    Posts
    4,646

    Default

    You are correct, I am wrong. I had it backwards in my head as to the location of the pivot ball, been awhile since I screwed with mine... my bad. Never had to screw around with mine with the stock belhousing.

    Is that an adjustable cable at the fork? Can you tighten it? I have had problems with adjustable cables stretching in the past, but that looks to be what MM sells now. Is the quadrant a double hook?

    Cale

  22. #22

    Default

    The cable is not adjustable. The quadrant is single hook.

    Just now, I tried JUST taking the slack out of the cable with the firewall adjuster. No slack at the fork. But no tighter. Started the car on stands with the parking brake off. Still hard to put into gear.

    I think I'm going to put the spacer back in at the quadrant. The firewall adjuster still had to come out pretty far.

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
    Last edited by ZephyrEFI; 05-22-2020 at 06:14 PM.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  23. #23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by erratic50 View Post
    What I can tell you is that if your fork doesn't tend to rest at the rear or the slot when there's no cable on it you'll have some problems. I've gotten them to work when they are forward but the further forward they are the less leverage the fork tends to have and the more pedal effort you can expect. I like to see them where they lightly spring themselves to the rear of the slot. If they don't and you have a lot of pedal effort then this is most likely where everything is actually out of adjustment.

    another thing to consider is what is the condition of the thrust bearing. Too much thrust can make it almost impossible to get a clutch to disengage. Granted, Ive never replaced my thrust bearing on my car and its just fine currently. (knock on wood)
    Are you talking about the thrust bearing on the engine? Again, brand new.

    As for where the fork likes to sit without the cable in its slot, here.



    What is supposed to be pushing it against the back of the slot? If I move my fork back and forth from the back of the slot to the pressure plate fingers, it moves really nice and smooth if that tells you anything. Also, I noticed some up and down movement is possible with the fork, if that means anything.

    I double checked the grease I used, and it is indeed high temp.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  24. #24

    Default

    Inside the bellhousing. This is with the clutch fork moved all the way back.



    Behind the clutch fork.



    Not sure if anything can be determined from these, but here they are.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  25. #25

    Default

    I put the spacer back in, adjusted it back to just after no slack, and tried a few things. The firewall is not flexing. When you push the clutch to the floor, this is where it sits.



    It's about as hard to turn the rear wheel with or without the clutch in. It's still hard to put the car in gear, but when you try WITH THE CLUTCH STILL IN, the rear wheels become very hard to turn.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •