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  1. #76
    FEP Power Member Jerry peachuer's Avatar
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    Bell housing stock fox anyhow is 3.200 from face to ball when assembled
    Pressure plate thicknesses vary so this is something to pay attention to when you remove old and replace with new
    I know you don't have your old one per thread above. But when you remove stock and replace with this new unknown thinner or thicker pp how do you adjust the difference? This is where I think the stack up up or down has you

    If everything is fox and installed correctly then look at fork position when clutch is released and disengaged. Just with car off watch it's action under car while buddy presses and holds pedal in

    I believe you're looking for .04 disengagement if you could measure which I'm not sure how you could measure this. You will have it release lower to the floor and the pedal at rest will have free play somewhat similiar to your brake pedal

    If you could pull off your side cover and see if your pp fingers are loaded that may help visualize what's going on


    Clutch disc spline and New input splines machining could be sticking on you and throw out bearing could be getting tight in spots.. I know you added grease so should be good unless clutch material is sticking to the grease and its gumming it up

    I still would just look not remove anything yet

    If I removed anything I would remove trans first so I could peak inside bell and remove piece by piece

    Make sure your alignment dowels are in as well

    PP finger height to clutch face needs to be checked should be near 1-7/8

    I would make sure your pivot ball height is checked as well before I bought any parts

    you could have new fox bell with bogus pivot ball setup

    Think about this
    How many foxbodies on assembly line in production? Do you think there's a special area for pivot ball shimming and spacing on the side ?

    I don't know the answer but I would doubt it

    Once pressure plate tolerance is maintained with machining and pressure plate thickness is maintained and your bell housing thickness I s maintained the throw out bearing is placed on moveable fingers and all of your machining tolerances stack up are in a near perfect geometry

    From there it's easy to see why OEM pivot ball is in a fixed position and non adjustable

    There's only in/out movement with a quadrant designed for a fixed arc for cable adjustment all fixed components .
    Once you change something .100 in either direction (pressure plate) you can see how you need to adjust something for same pedal range outcome

    By adding new everything and adjustable setup you should be good to go and this is why I would remove anything just yet
    Double check fork relationship and use a piece of string to get the length of your cable by running it alongside it and using tape measure as you lay it next to it

    I would use a spacer of some sort on the fork if I found cable too long "just for mock up" and if it's just a cable length issue then that's that

    You mention setting your engine back maybe that NEW distance is the difference in your cable setup so you may have to add a spacer or something similiar for it to work

    Try using a big socket or nut or something to take up slack for mock up

    Just some thoughts good luck







    recap
    Stare at

  2. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry peachuer View Post
    Bell housing stock fox anyhow is 3.200 from face to ball when assembled
    Pressure plate thicknesses vary so this is something to pay attention to when you remove old and replace with new
    I know you don't have your old one per thread above. But when you remove stock and replace with this new unknown thinner or thicker pp how do you adjust the difference? This is where I think the stack up up or down has you

    If everything is fox and installed correctly then look at fork position when clutch is released and disengaged. Just with car off watch it's action under car while buddy presses and holds pedal in

    I believe you're looking for .04 disengagement if you could measure which I'm not sure how you could measure this. You will have it release lower to the floor and the pedal at rest will have free play somewhat similiar to your brake pedal

    If you could pull off your side cover and see if your pp fingers are loaded that may help visualize what's going on


    Clutch disc spline and New input splines machining could be sticking on you and throw out bearing could be getting tight in spots.. I know you added grease so should be good unless clutch material is sticking to the grease and its gumming it up

    I still would just look not remove anything yet

    If I removed anything I would remove trans first so I could peak inside bell and remove piece by piece

    Make sure your alignment dowels are in as well

    PP finger height to clutch face needs to be checked should be near 1-7/8

    I would make sure your pivot ball height is checked as well before I bought any parts

    you could have new fox bell with bogus pivot ball setup

    Think about this
    How many foxbodies on assembly line in production? Do you think there's a special area for pivot ball shimming and spacing on the side ?

    I don't know the answer but I would doubt it

    Once pressure plate tolerance is maintained with machining and pressure plate thickness is maintained and your bell housing thickness I s maintained the throw out bearing is placed on moveable fingers and all of your machining tolerances stack up are in a near perfect geometry

    From there it's easy to see why OEM pivot ball is in a fixed position and non adjustable

    There's only in/out movement with a quadrant designed for a fixed arc for cable adjustment all fixed components .
    Once you change something .100 in either direction (pressure plate) you can see how you need to adjust something for same pedal range outcome

    By adding new everything and adjustable setup you should be good to go and this is why I would remove anything just yet
    Double check fork relationship and use a piece of string to get the length of your cable by running it alongside it and using tape measure as you lay it next to it

    I would use a spacer of some sort on the fork if I found cable too long "just for mock up" and if it's just a cable length issue then that's that

    You mention setting your engine back maybe that NEW distance is the difference in your cable setup so you may have to add a spacer or something similiar for it to work

    Try using a big socket or nut or something to take up slack for mock up

    Just some thoughts good luck







    recap
    Stare at
    Great post! ^^^
    Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience
    79 Zephyr, 4.6L 4v/4r70w swap, with team z front and rear suspension, 8.8 and upgraded brakes and coil overs. Running Holley Terminator X Max.

  3. #78
    FEP Power Member Jerry peachuer's Avatar
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    I'm really not smart I had 3 major failed engines soooo onto the 4th here we go

    However I'm ok with being wrong and respect being corrected and I wouldnt pass along any info that would hurt another members car

    The Measurements above are from very reputable company

    Setting motor back may not have anything to do with it I'm just curious what could change and I would imagine you could adjust out 1" to 1-1/2 of play with that setup

    Tolerances are my thing if it was a pool shot I have you covered

    Brad If you need something made I may be able to help

    However you could use maybe some split shots for fishing to take up cable length .. sounds ridiculous maybe but that what that wedge thing reminded me off from max and I'm only saying for mock up until you find your sweet spot

  4. #79

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    That's my plan, at least to start is to take the trans out and work on the relationships inside the bell with them installed.

    The pivot ball stud is the same length as the old one I pulled out; I compared them. I agree with you that I SHOULD be good to go, but the fact remains that my fork isn't sitting where it's supposed to. Whether that's being caused by something installed incorrectly with the clutch itself or the pivot ball needing to come forward. I really don't think this is a cable issue.

    I think you've got something with that pressure plate thickness thing though. My clutch is Valeo, yes, but it's not the stock replacement one.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  5. #80
    FEP Super Member NAVYCAT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZephyrEFI View Post
    1) It says in the MM instructions they make the cable a little long so it can work with a variety of applications. That's why they include the spacer.
    2) Your whole drivetrain is from a '95, though right? Those use different bellhousings and longer forks. Mine is from a Fox.
    3) I believe my problem is that my clutch is not engaging or disengaging all the way because the range of motion is compromised by the clutch fork being in the wrong spot. At this point, I think I need to take it apart just for my own peace of mind. So I can fiddle with it and see what I can learn, much as it's going to suck.
    no my T5 is off a 88 (not from the parts 94), also what happened with mine is that after I installed my trans I found the fork came off the pivot arm I didnt push it on all the way to lock it in place
    2017 Ford Explorer Sport (DD) 1986 Capri 5.0 Silver/Red
    1969 Falcon XW GTHO coupe (SOLD) went to Australia
    Past 4 eyes-
    4th. 1981 Capri "White" Black Magic I6
    3rd. 1984 Capri RS V8 Black/grey
    2nd. 1984 Capri RS V8 White/red
    1st. 1984 SVO Grey/grey (traded it for a worn out 1970 BOSS 302)
    Both '84 Capri's vin# were 10 away from each other
    U.S. NAVY 1980-2009

  6. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by NAVYCAT View Post
    no my T5 is off a 88 (not from the parts 94), also what happened with mine is that after I installed my trans I found the fork came off the pivot arm I didnt push it on all the way to lock it in place
    Okay, interesting. Well, another thing to look for when i get the stupid trans out. Where did you get your forks from? I wonder what application the too short one was for.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  7. #82
    FEP Super Member NAVYCAT's Avatar
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    I think I got the fork from NPD.....I think I would have to go thru my pile of papers to check
    2017 Ford Explorer Sport (DD) 1986 Capri 5.0 Silver/Red
    1969 Falcon XW GTHO coupe (SOLD) went to Australia
    Past 4 eyes-
    4th. 1981 Capri "White" Black Magic I6
    3rd. 1984 Capri RS V8 Black/grey
    2nd. 1984 Capri RS V8 White/red
    1st. 1984 SVO Grey/grey (traded it for a worn out 1970 BOSS 302)
    Both '84 Capri's vin# were 10 away from each other
    U.S. NAVY 1980-2009

  8. #83
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    E6ZZ-7515-A is the dog bone fork, which has a different lever arm for 4 cylinder T5's in the S cars (1986 on wards XR7 and T birds).

    Shamlesslly purlined pictures from fordpinto.com's Pinto5.0, Pinto Master!
    Confirming the roll out of a one size fits all clutch fork stamped D9 BC 7515-BA. The E6ZZ-7515-A will most likely have been varied to suit, related to that

    "Sometimes, like the small 4 cyli pilot bearing, Ford back tracted to lower tier FOG/ Hummer/Rocket German gearbox parts, so you occasionally can't fit 5.0 forks to the earlier type of bell-housing"

    statement.

    8550capri stated that the later SVO nad T bird forks are known to have issues with a dog-bone clutch lever prone to break, the earlier D9 5.0 usually works on everything, including the common D9ZC 6394 EA bell-housing some 2.3 's ran that year.

    Ford does try to make it simple sometimes! 1979 was it, everything Fox was the same.

    Then they went to a dogboned bellhousing,



    which is what the E6ZZ-7515-A uses, IIRC. [/QUOTE]




    E6ZR-7515-BA is the shorter clutch fork, for V8's. I think that's how it works.


    Quote Originally Posted by wraithracing View Post
    Here is the one I have. If you still need it send me a PM.






  9. #84

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    Yeah, I do not have that kind of fork.

    So, check this out. Now, THIS is the kind of info I've been looking for!





    It's from the instructions on a Centerforce clutch.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  10. #85

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    Looked at my clutch fork today through the bellhousing hole. It's hard to tell if it has the problem from the orange sheet since the clutch fork is kind of shaped like a wave. As far as I can tell it's aimed in the right direction. I think I'm still going to shim the pivot ball stud though.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  11. #86

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    Got the stupid transmission out, but now I'm stuck. I went to take the top cover off, and then remembered that the tailshaft housing has to come off in order to do THAT, which means the damn fluid has to be drained. I HATE taking the tailshaft housing off because it's so ****ing impossible to get everything to line back up as your stupid sealant is drying. One false move and your tiny ball and spring go flying (like happened last year) never to be seen again, and you're out of business for a good week or more until you can get new ones.

    Where am I stuck? Well, I drove the roll pin down into its opening on the shifter block thingy, put the trans in 4th, and moved the block back a little bit, and it won't budge another inch. I can't get that to move, nor can i get the tailshaft housing to split from the main case. No idea what do do now. And yes, i tried the trick where you put your punch in the roll pin hold and tap on that. No dice.

    Haven't even gotten to any of the clutch stuff yet. I just wanted to check the internal thrust on the trans first. I ran it through the gears before I started taking it apart, and it spins nice and free in every gear including reverse. So, it's not jammed up internally or anything.
    Last edited by ZephyrEFI; 06-30-2020 at 05:29 PM.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  12. #87
    FEP Super Member NAVYCAT's Avatar
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    CRAP! geeeze Brad WTF? that tranny just dont like you....... even worse when your by yourself
    2017 Ford Explorer Sport (DD) 1986 Capri 5.0 Silver/Red
    1969 Falcon XW GTHO coupe (SOLD) went to Australia
    Past 4 eyes-
    4th. 1981 Capri "White" Black Magic I6
    3rd. 1984 Capri RS V8 Black/grey
    2nd. 1984 Capri RS V8 White/red
    1st. 1984 SVO Grey/grey (traded it for a worn out 1970 BOSS 302)
    Both '84 Capri's vin# were 10 away from each other
    U.S. NAVY 1980-2009

  13. #88
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    Did you get all the bolts out? Did you remove the speedometer cable gear assy?

  14. #89

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    Brad,

    PM sent.
    Jeremiah

    1986 Mustang GT 5spd, 3.27's
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  15. #90
    FEP Power Member Jerry peachuer's Avatar
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    Pretty certain you want to be in neutral and also not drive rollpin down to knick material and it will bottom out
    Your roll pin could be longer than stock and or confused at time of assembly if that's what you did prior with the clutch fork lug roll pin

    If you are stuck on that then you may have to cut the shift block apart to gain access to the pin

    For reassembly a milk crate works good with open bottom so the trans can be stood up on end vertical when installing tail housing and i use old drive shaft yoke to center the tail housing and 5th gear shaft there is a bolt dead center on the belly of tail housing that's not easy to see at first looking down on top of trans

    Try neutral but also put a drift punch in the roll pin hole to finesse it into the center

    There's a low spot in the shift plate under the ball that I think you may be hung up in a groove of the shift pattern plate hopefully its that simple
    Also your trans end play is determined when fully assembled pushing on each end output and input shaft
    Max .003 to .005 preload endplay
    Second if you spin it through the gears and back down through the gears down shifting its really all you can do other than shimming up/down

  16. #91

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    Double post
    Last edited by ZephyrEFI; 07-01-2020 at 12:20 AM.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  17. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by dynodon64 View Post
    Did you get all the bolts out? Did you remove the speedometer cable gear assy?
    You know what? I'll bet that's what it is, thanks!

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  18. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry peachuer View Post
    Pretty certain you want to be in neutral and also not drive rollpin down to knick material and it will bottom out
    Your roll pin could be longer than stock and or confused at time of assembly if that's what you did prior with the clutch fork lug roll pin

    If you are stuck on that then you may have to cut the shift block apart to gain access to the pin

    For reassembly a milk crate works good with open bottom so the trans can be stood up on end vertical when installing tail housing and i use old drive shaft yoke to center the tail housing and 5th gear shaft there is a bolt dead center on the belly of tail housing that's not easy to see at first looking down on top of trans

    Try neutral but also put a drift punch in the roll pin hole to finesse it into the center

    There's a low spot in the shift plate under the ball that I think you may be hung up in a groove of the shift pattern plate hopefully its that simple
    Also your trans end play is determined when fully assembled pushing on each end output and input shaft
    Max .003 to .005 preload endplay
    Second if you spin it through the gears and back down through the gears down shifting its really all you can do other than shimming up/down
    Thanks, that will come in handy!

    I hadn't been able to find a spec for that end play yet, let alone how to check it, so thank you for that too. Would've been nice to know before I started taking things apart. Where do the shims go if needed?
    Last edited by ZephyrEFI; 07-01-2020 at 11:38 AM.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  19. #94

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    Okay, I got the block out. Just needed to do more wiggling.

    Still trying to come up with a strategy for getting the tailshaft housing off. Definitely not using RTV this time when I put it back together. There's nowhere to pry!
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  20. #95
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    The tail should come off easy, even with RTV. Use a rubber mallet or a dead blow plastic hammer and hit it by the yoke end side to side to break the tension of the RTV.

  21. #96
    FEP Power Member Jerry peachuer's Avatar
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    The shims go in 2 spots
    Counter shaft under the metal sheet metal cap unless you added cluster support plate then same thing and behind the input shaft bearing race

    Its zero wiggle and a sheet of lined paper for thickness is your preload that's approx .003 thick for that paper

    Tail housing you can gently pry just near the top by top cover and by tail section lime mentioned above

    Just be delicate its a thin hollow casting that can go south quick if you use too much cow bell type of force
    It may be hung up on the 5th gear shaft assembly it fits in a little recess for support so downward action and up may give you better result but don't go to far in any direction

    It should let go somewhat easy so double check perimeter again for bolts

  22. #97
    FEP Super Member cb84capri's Avatar
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    Anaerobic sealer is nicer to work with, it costs more though.

    Cale

  23. #98

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    Alright, I'll try the tapping.

    But yeah, anaerobic sealer seems to be what people say to use.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  24. #99

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    Well, I tapped the **** out of it and got nothin'. Tested the limits of gentle tapping. Tapped in every possible direction.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  25. #100
    FEP Power Member Broncojunkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZephyrEFI View Post
    Well, I tapped the **** out of it and got nothin'. Tested the limits of gentle tapping. Tapped in every possible direction.
    I know someone mentioned it already, but you're 100% positive there's not a bolt there you may have missed? I've been inside plenty of these and I still seem to miss one every time.
    79 Pace Car - 331, t5
    79 Pace Car- 302, 4 spd
    79 Cobra - working on 351w, t5
    82 Capri- working on 302, t5
    82gt - working on 408w, c4

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