nice piece thanks for sharing info
nice piece thanks for sharing info
Okay, I'm back finally. Got busy with other stuff.
So, what are we getting at here? My pressure plate fingers are actually okay?
My trans is finally ready to go, after making a real fight of things, so I'm back on the clutch situation. I installed the adjustable pivot ball stud at 2.7"
I installed the bellhousing and measured at the other end of the fork.
Looks like they're about the same. I'm REALLY confused now...
Brad
'79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
'17 Ford Focus ST
'14 Ford Fusion SE Manual
What was the original problem?
Jack Hidley
Maximum Motorsports Tech Support
The clutch wasn't engaging or disengaging all the way.
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Brad
'79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
'17 Ford Focus ST
'14 Ford Fusion SE Manual
Remember what I said about having a little preload
Brad,
You mean that you pressed the clutch pedal to the floor, the clutch would not release enough to be able to shift the car properly? If this is the case, it was probably quite difficult to get into reverse.
There are a lot of possible causes of this. General groups of causes are listed below.
1) Some compliance in the system is using up too much travel in the system, so that there isn't enough TOB travel. This could be from cable assembly housing compression (expansion), the rubber bushing at the firewall, the firewall flexing, a cheap clutch fork which flexes.
2) Excessive runout in the friction disc or friction surfaces (heat warpage). If the friction disc has too much wobble, it will be clamped flat when the pedal is up, but when the pedal is pushed down, the disc wobble will cause it to conduct a small amount of torque to the input shaft. This will cause the synchros to have to do so much work, that the car may not shift. You can chuck the friction disc up in a lathe to measure its fore/aft runout.
3) Bad pilot bearing. Keeps the car from shifting for the same reason as #2 above. Too much torque at the input shaft.
4) Poor geometry of the clutch fork. When the clutch fork isn't at 90 degrees to the input shaft at 1/2 travel, for a given amount of cable travel you end up with less travel at the TOB. You seem to have this optimized now.
5) MMCL-10 clutch pedal height adjuster installed. This reduces the total clutch cable travel available and may not work with some clutches as a result.
6) Badly designed clutch PP. The less metal is used in the PP cover, the more flexible it will be. The more it flexes, the less travel the PP friction surface undegoes. PP with stiffer covers (thicker metal) flex less, so there is less wasted travel of the TOB.
6a) I've seen this in person. A lightened steel flywheel. Too much material was removed from the back of the flywheel, so that when the clutch was depressed, the flywheel flexed into a cone shape. The friction disc was always touching the friction surfaces, so the car wouldn't shift.
Jack Hidley
Maximum Motorsports Tech Support
Yes, especially when I was at a stop and everything was cold, the shifter would not want to go into gear. ANY gear!
And then sometimes when I was cruising in 5th not even touching the clutch pedal, the shifter would slowly slide out of gear.
What should I do next?
Brad
'79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
'17 Ford Focus ST
'14 Ford Fusion SE Manual
Normally when the gear oil is cold and thicker, it has more friction so the synchros work better. The trans will shift more quickly, but the effort will be higher.
If the car won't go into gear when it is cold, that doesn't sound like a clutch problem at all. Organic friction material expands when hot, which can make it so that the friction disc doesn't release from the clutch. When organic materials are cold, they shrink, so that normally makes it easier for the shift to occur.
If the trans comes out of gear under load, that is definitely an internal problem. It could be a worn out synchro or pads on the shift fork. This is not my area of expertise.
I would put the car back together and see if all of this work fixed the problem or not. If it didn't, take the trans out and take it to a shop that specializes in them.
Jack Hidley
Maximum Motorsports Tech Support
I guess I'm not 100% sure it's worse when it's cold. The last time I drove it, I came to a complete stop at a stop sign right outside my neighborhood and had to wrench it into gear, otherwise it wouldn't go. That's where I got the cold thing from. I didn't make many COMPLETE stops after that. Mostly rolling stops to kind of ensure it would go into gear. I think I'm not that good at paying attention to the right things while test driving to diagnose problems. Doesn't help I started this knowing next to nothing about clutches and what sort of things can happen with them.
I don't know about the inside of that transmission though. It has upgraded components in it (possible Astro rebuild), and nothing changed inside it between before I installed the new clutch components and now.
Maybe I will put the car back together though. I'll see if I can get the pivot ball forward of the cable end of the clutch fork thought first.
Last edited by ZephyrEFI; 08-06-2020 at 01:05 PM.
Brad
'79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
'17 Ford Focus ST
'14 Ford Fusion SE Manual
I would recommend curing the firewall flex once you get the trans back in to eliminate that as a possibility for the disengagement issue.
Jeremiah
1986 Mustang GT 5spd, 3.27's
PimpXS ECU/Android Single DIN Touchscreen
SN95 Cobra Brakes/SN95 Front LCA's/Axles/S197 Wheels
1998 Explorer Engine/Stock HO Cam 281rwhp/326rwtq
I think that you should put the car all back together. Drive it and if the problem is still there, do some troubleshooting to see if the shifting problem is related to clutch temperature or trans fluid temperature.
The 5th gear problem has to be an internal transmission issue.
Jack Hidley
Maximum Motorsports Tech Support
Today I went out there and removed the pedal height adjuster and started working on a firewall reinforcement plate. I think I can do it in a way you won't be able to tell. I was trying to cut the hole using this crappy once piece hole saw and the stupid thing was jumping all over the damn place, so I gave up for the day. I'll go get myself a good arbor type hole saw in the 1 3/8" size the adjuster will fit tightly into and go from there. Can't have a project without needing to go to the store for a new tool, can we?
Brad
'79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
'17 Ford Focus ST
'14 Ford Fusion SE Manual
Alright, I finished my firewall reinforcement plate today. Here's mocked up
and all painted and installed.
It's made of some pretty thick sheetmetal; maybe even 1/8" thick. I cut it to the about the shape and size of the flat area surrounding the hole. As you can see, there isn't much. Another guy would weld this in I suppose, but I don't weld, so I riveted it. The bolt holes in the reinforcement plate line up with the previous bolt holes in the firewall for the adjuster. I'm going to do my best to get the quadrant exactly perpendicular to it. In theory, I shouldn't have to do anything, but I'll do it again anyway. Believe it or not, it's painted Ford 1G silver, but it sure doesn't seem to match the rest of the firewall that well. Oh well. The throttle cable bracket is painted castcoat aluminum and that doesn't look that good either.
Brad
'79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
'17 Ford Focus ST
'14 Ford Fusion SE Manual
Clean in there nice work
Rivits hold planes together and 190mph Arca remax roundy rounds together
Nice work
And frogs hold the world together. Rivit! Hope everything goes your way, Brad!
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Spent some time fiddling with the clutch today. I adjusted the pivot ball in the opposite direction towards the front of the car just to try it. I adjusted it out to about 3 inches even. The cable end is at 1.7". I tried putting the cable on and checking the feel, and it feels phenomenal! It feels like a clutch pedal should, which it really didn't before. Plus i hardly had to adjust the firewall adjuster out at all. Just wanted to run my numbers by you guys before I commit and put things back together. I know it's outside the .5 - .75" difference between them, but it just seems so much better now. I'll get a helper and double check what the action looks like from the outside of the bellhousing and stuff too. Anyway, what do you think?
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Last edited by ZephyrEFI; 08-19-2020 at 05:35 PM.
Brad
'79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
'17 Ford Focus ST
'14 Ford Fusion SE Manual
Brad,
What does the clutch feel like when the ball stud is adjusted so that the clutch fork is at the correct angle as you previously determined?
I don't understand why you would be readjusting the ball stud from 2.7" long to 3.0" long, if you haven't tested the clutch yet.
Jack Hidley
Maximum Motorsports Tech Support
Because the fork was pretty much perpendicular to the centerline of the car that way. The cable end of the fork measured 2.7" also. I thought you want the cable end .5 to .75" closer to the bellhousing trans plane.
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Brad
'79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
'17 Ford Focus ST
'14 Ford Fusion SE Manual
Well, I made several more adjustments to the pivot ball stud, and took measurements until I had about 3/4" of difference between the cable end (~2.1) and ball stud (~2.8 ) end. Considering 1.5" of total travel of the clutch pedal, that puts us right at perpendicular at the halfway point, just like we want. Ironically, it's positioned right about where a regular pivot ball stud would be, but something has definitely changed. The pedal feel is still fantastic, and check this out. This is the fork position with the pedal all the way in before:
And this is now:
Here's the resting position
It still looks off to me, but I think given the big change in function and feel, I should be good to put it back together? Maybe reinforcing the firewall and removing the pedal height adjuster made all the difference. Opinions?
Last edited by ZephyrEFI; 08-22-2020 at 05:32 PM.
Brad
'79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
'17 Ford Focus ST
'14 Ford Fusion SE Manual
Looks much better my opinion and I'd be shocked if you dont have success with that.. visually speaking
Reinforcing the firewall without a doubt helped. The flex would reduce the ability to fully disengaged the clutch.
Jeremiah
1986 Mustang GT 5spd, 3.27's
PimpXS ECU/Android Single DIN Touchscreen
SN95 Cobra Brakes/SN95 Front LCA's/Axles/S197 Wheels
1998 Explorer Engine/Stock HO Cam 281rwhp/326rwtq
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