high zinc dino oil

[country guy]

My engine builder wanted me to run a high zinc oil, I was running Valvoline Conventional Oil 10w-40, but it's no longer available. Asking around it was suggested Shell Rotella T 15w-40, because of it's high zinc content, but I always thought it was designed for diesel engines ? Your thoughts and suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks

[bwguardian]

The newer CK-4 diesel engine oil has reduced zinc and phosphorus along with more detergents...like the Shell Rotella and Delo brands...for the newer tier 4 diesel engines. The pre 2007 diesel engine oils is what I would utilize, which are the CJ-4 oils. These are typically seen in the Heavy Duty diesel engine oils like the Walmart brand Super Tech, Motorcraft, and Valvoline brands. This is what I run in our 7.3L Powerstroke trucks, older Kubota diesel tractor, and newer gasoline riding lawn mower equipment. I've been running Castrol 10w40 oil in the 5.0 Mustang, and if that's gone mia, I'll run the aforementioned oil in it next time it's due for an oil change. You can also buy a zinc additive if you wish...

[wraithracing]

If you want an unbiased independent rating on motor oils check this out. https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/201...-test-ranking/

I don't want to disrespect your engine builder, but there is more to choosing the correct oil that just using a high zinc formula. Here is the section from the above website that discusses it.

"In recent years there have been entirely too many wiped cam lobes and ruined lifter failures in traditional American flat tappet engines, even though a variety of well respected brand name parts were typically used. These failures involved people using various high zinc oils, various high zinc Break-In oils, various Diesel oils, and various oils with aftermarket zinc additives added to the oil. They believed that any high zinc oil concoction is all they needed for wear protection during flat tappet engine break-in and after break-in. But, all of those failures have proven over and over again, that their belief in high zinc was nothing more than a MYTH, just as my test data has shown..
A high level of zinc/phos is simply no guarantee of providing sufficient wear protection. And to make matters even worse, excessively high levels of zinc/phos can actually “cause” DAMAGE your engine, rather than “prevent” it. Motor Oil Industry testing has found that motor oils with more than 1,400 ppm ZDDP, INCREASED long-term wear. And it was also found that motor oils with more than 2,000 ppm ZDDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling (pitting and flaking). The ZDDP value is simply the average of the zinc and the phosphorus values, then rounded down to the nearest 100 ppm (parts per million)..
From those failures where I was able to find out what specific oils were used, it turned out that those were oils I had already performed my Engineering Wear Protection Capability tests on. And all those oils had only provided poor wear protection capability, meaning that if they had looked at my test data before using those oils, they would have known in advance that their engines would be at significant risk of failure with those oils. And that is just what happened.
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A number of people who have had those failures, and some had repeated failures, have contacted me, asking what they can do to prevent that failure in the future. I tell them to forget all that high zinc nonsense and look at my Wear Protection Ranking List. And to select any high ranking oil there, no matter how much zinc it has, because zinc quantity simply does NOT matter. The only thing that matters regarding wear protection, is the psi value each oil can produce in my testing. The higher the psi value, the better the wear protection. I recommend they use the SAME highly ranked oil for break-in and after break-in. It’s that simple.
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WHEN PEOPLE HAVE TAKEN THAT ADVICE, NOT ONE PERSON HAS EVER COME BACK TO ME TO REPORT THAT MY RANKING LIST DID NOT WORK FOR THEM. Since my ranking list has worked in every case to prevent wiped flat tappet lobes and lifters, it can also work for you to provide the best possible wear protection for your engine. My test data is the real deal, it exactly matches real world experience, and it is the best and most complete motor oil comparison data you will ever find anywhere.
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And for those people who have been able to use various high zinc oils without having trouble with their flat tappet engines, that only means that the oil they used had enough wear protection capability for the loads their engines saw at that time. It does not mean they were necessarily using a great oil. And it does not provide any information about how much reserve wear protection capability their oil provided, nor how their oil compares to other oils on the market.
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But, there are some high zinc oils that do provide excellent wear protection. And you can see which ones they are, by looking at my ranking list below."

Good Luck!

[STL79Coupe]

You can also get Zinc additives to use with your oil.

[liv2roc]

I lost a engine about 10 years ago after a cam change because I didnt know the took the zinc out of regular oil. I broke it in with comp cams break in oil and after a few 100 miles put regular castrol 10-40 in and it wiped 2 lobes off the cam within a few miles.

[gr79]

Synthetic, semi, seems to be ok in my car. Have used house brand synthetic. Engine is fine.
Valvoline VR-1 has high zinc formula. Hard to find.
Roller cams seem be one solution not requiring special oils.
Film strength?
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forum...Number=3019857

For what its worth
https://www.restore-an-old-car.com/b...ssic-cars.html
https://myengineneeds.com/what-synth...or-older-cars/

[KevinVarnes]

If you want an unbiased independent rating on motor oils check this out. https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/201...-test-ranking/

I don't want to disrespect your engine builder, but there is more to choosing the correct oil that just using a high zinc formula. Here is the section from the above website that discusses it.

Tons of good information in there. I think I could spend a few days trying to read through all of that. Thank you for posting the link.

[cb84capri]

I lost an Elgin pro stock cam in 2007 with around 15,000kms on it driving on the street with Quaker State synthetic 10w30 in the 302. Take what this five forty rat guy says with a grain of salt, guys. Until he sets up a proper flat tappet camshaft wear test and is completely transparent in his testing methods he's only expressing an opinion on the matter. He can't ever seem to produce any names for any of his examples he talks about (a NASCAR team, a guy on corvette forum, a circle track racer), nor pictures of his testing equipment.

https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36916

The Comp Cam I replaced the Elgin with lived 9 years on the Valvoline VR1 oil Comp recommended to me to use over the phone, a hypereutectic piston that gave the wrist pin an escape path did that motor in. I gave that cam and the edm oil hole lifters to my friend who may use put it to use once again.

Cale

[Jerry peachuer]

Brad penn oil was a reccomendation by a local engine shop in regards to flat tappet build ..

Tough spot to be in because your "engine builder" has reccomended a direction and this could be his way out if things don't go as planned upon startup ,however I would consult your cam manufacturer and I'm pretty certain they will try to sell you something

[wraithracing]

If the engine builder is unwilling or unable to offer a specific oil brand/weight/etc then it's a hollow recommendation IMHO. If he believes the whole high zinc content then he should be able to provide a decent specific recommendation. Anything else is a cop-out by the engine builder again MY Opinion yours may vary.

[gmatt]

A short article about ZDDP from Tom Taylor, owner of RockAuto.

"Zinc" or "Phosphorus" on an oil bottle label usually is referring to the additive zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate (ZDDP). ZDDP helps prevent wear, especially where the camshaft contacts the lifter in flat tappet lifter engines. Newer engines (since the late 1980s) have roller valve lifters and therefore do not benefit as much from ZDDP.The anti-wear benefits of ZDDP were recognized in the 1950s. The oil of the 1950s had only about 300 parts per million (ppm) ZDDP. The concentration of ZDDP in motor oil gradually increased until it reached a maximum of 1200 to 1400 ppm in the 1980s. (More than 1400 ppm of ZDDP in oil actually starts to increase engine wear.)
Unfortunately, it was discovered that ZDDP makes catalytic converters for gasoline engines less effective by gradually coating the catalyst material with phosphate. To satisfy the latest API Service "SN" oil standard, oil manufacturers only put 600 to 800 ppm ZDDP in their oil.

Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil

For over a decade, car enthusiasts with flat tappet lifter engines have been debating whether the 600-800 ppm ZDDP in new "SN" oil is enough protection. Oil experts say that it is enough wear protection once the engine is broken in.
The flat tappet lifter equipped engines in my family fleet were all broken in around a half century ago. I still like to dote on my old cars by giving them a little extra ZDDP as long as it does not require too much hassle or extra money. Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil has been one convenient option. It does not qualify for the "SN" rating because it has too much ZDDP and it is "not recommended for extended use in vehicles with catalytic converters."
Another new, less expensive possibility may be the 10W-30 oil made for some of the most modern diesel engines. Some old car enthusiasts have long recommended oil for diesel engines because it frequently contained more ZDDP. Unfortunately, diesel oil was typically only available in a heavy weight such as 15W-40.

Motorcraft's 10W-30 Oil for Diesels

The label on Motorcraft's 10W-30 oil for diesels says it "contains more than 1000 ppm phosphorus for better wear protection." That is 200 to 400 more ppm at little or no additional cost compared to "SN" 10W-30 oils. The Motorcraft diesel oil label also says, "do not use in gasoline engines equipped with catalysts."
I am testing the Motorcraft 10W-30 for diesels in the 351 under the hood of my 1971 Ford LTD convertible. However, I am not recommending that anyone else use oils labeled "diesel" in any gasoline engines. Please consult your vehicle's owners manual, the appropriate authorities, legal council, etc. before choosing a new type of oil for your specific engine. (For most vehicles, simply look under "Engine" and "Oil" in the RockAuto.com catalog to see manufacturer recommended choices. Oils listed by weight (10W-30, 0W-40, etc.) are found in the "Tools & Universal Parts" tab, under "Engine" and finally "Oil.")

Tom Taylor,
RockAuto.com

[country guy]

thanks guys for all the info !

[richpet]

Clear as mud again! LOL! Oil threads on the Goldwing site (like here) are always full of thoughts and rhetoric. I prefer real world experience.

It does bring up a few questions though:

1- Did Ford, Chevy, etc., run all their new cars/motors with FT cams for the required 25-30 minutes using special break in oil at 2k rpm or so prior to shipping to a dealer? I don't know anyone who worked in a factory then to ask.

2- I have a 1990 Bronco with a 351 Flat tappet motor. Been running a variety of oils in it for the last 60k miles (since I bought it in 2012). Never thought twice about zinc/phosphorus. Just ran a high quality oil (as best as I understand that. Some changes were plain dino, some were a blend, some were full synthetic). This engine has a tick over 100k on it now, still running strong, quiet, and as efficient as they ever were (12-14 mpg average). That seems pretty good for the oils I've used. Is it an anomaly?

3- For those that have put some REAL miles on their street driven flat tappet motors- what has worked for the last 50k for you?

I respect what I read in Wraith's link- seems like a LOT of good info. But how does one verify?

[emerygt350]

I just started putting qsud 5w30, in mine since my 0w40 euro mobile1 is hard to find now and I suspected the 40 was a little thick.

[gr79]

Worked at Ford Dearborn Engine Plant, 1973-1974
Ford FT gas truck, some industrial and marine V8 engines. Intake manifold area.
Engines were hot tested for 30(?) minutes. What a sight.
Since then, curiosity always made it a point to try and sneak a peek at the oil used. Tours, or at work. Brands of parts too.
Did not see any indication of use of any special break in oils, nor any oil changing after hot tests. Some were pulled for inspection.
Was aware of oil back then. Tried to verify what factory fills were used. The mystery brand, type. Inconclusive.
At Dearborn, seen engine oil in bulk 55 gal drums near the line. Brand did vary from time to time. Nothing special marked on them.
Did see name brands. Type could have been coded. Oil per contract order.
Dunno if was top off or main source of fill. Was not supposed to be nosing around there like that away from my work area.

Not aware of dealers ever changing out oil on every if any new car engine as standard dealer prep procedure. Check level only.
Now engine factories don't always hot test production. Only leak test, do not fire up the engine. Niche lines may.
Build is so precise, really no break in needed anymore. Mobil 1 or synthetics are common factory fills.

[richpet]

Exactly. One good point made in that very lengthy attachment (which I loved reading through) was that the 'break in' is actually forced wear. Makes sense. Can't the same thing be accomplished with a 'normal' break in procedure? I bought a new motorcycle (Triumph Trophy SE), 2015 model year (this was in Oct 2016 as my Goldwing was rear-ended and totaled in summer 2016). Full synthetic from the factory. It was basically limit any full throttle for 1000 miles, and rpm limits up to that point (5k to mile 250, 7k to mile 750, etc that kind of thing).

When I fire up my new motor I am debating the process I will take. 30 min break in run at 2k with break in oil, or just good oil driven gently and changed a couple times over the first 500 miles? I am putting a FiTech FI system on it so it means running it carbed for the 30 minutes, then swapping to the FI system. Just debating what will in the real world be better.

[richpet]

And funny, I don't think I did the 30 minute run in on the motor I built for my '83 hatch. I know I didn't buy special oil. I pre-lubed it, sure. My dad was shop foreman at the local Ford dealership and he was there when it first started. Run it to get it dialed a bit idle wise, mixture, timing, and then drove it when no leaks showed up. Just gently for a while. That motor had over 50k on it last I heard with no issues. I sold it after putting 25 or 30k on it.