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Thread: 79 2.3 turbo

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    Default 79 2.3 turbo

    Hi, I'm new to the world of forums so here goes.... I just got a mainly complete engine from a 1979 Mustang turbo. Missing the oil pan and pick up tube. I haven't pulled it apart yet but it was a low mileage engine from a wrecked car. The head was removed and the gasket face and chambers are really rusty. No pitting but will need sandblasting and skimming. I don't know what car to put it in but I want to rebuild it as a daily driver type that has more than stock power but is still fuel efficient. It will probably end up in my 74 Capri for now. The spec I am looking at is as follows. Top end: Stock sized Enginetec valves, (i have had good luck with them) A new SVO camshaft (.400 lift) with roller rockers from a ranger. Double valve springs and viton seals. Comp Cams anti pump up lifters will be used. The head will have polished stock sized ports and chambers. The bottom end will have KB hypereutetic Turbo pistons and either moly rings or Total seal rings. Stock rods shot peened with ARP bolts. The block will be studded, deburred and blueprinted. A high volume oil pump with King race bearings for main and rod. I am thinking of a Canton baffled oil pan and pick up. The crank will be polished and balanced. For ancillaries I will use a round tooth pulley set up from Speedway motors and an Esslinger High flow water pump with a poly belt under-drive for pump and crank. For now I will just clean and deburr the stock exhaust manifold and Intake. The Turbo was rebuilt when it was removed and never run. I will use a light flywheel and a T5 trans. To begin with I want to use a 350 cfm Holley but eventually i'm looking at using Sniper EFI. I may also use water/meth injection to cool the charge under full throttle/boost. Ignition will probably be MSD. My goal is to build the engine properly in the first place so that I can add to it as time goes on. I want my 74 Capri to be my daily driver and because I commute to work economy and longevity are important. So is driveability so my original plan of a HP 2.8 V6 has been shelved for now. I want the engine to look "vintage" so i didn't want a later multi port EFI set up. I'm not sure where the engine will ultimately end up, but it is interesting enough i think it should be built. I would love to put it in a pinto but... So, What do you guys think? Has anyone built a 2.3 like this? I will track the car so power is important even though it is light but I haven't set a h.p goal. I think 175 h.p should be possible without crazy boost. I would love feedback although I will not rush the build. I'm hoping for the end of the year with next spring install as this year has gone crazy. Sorry for being long winded but I am... Take care every one. Cheers!

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    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    I have a HV oil pump in my 79 engine.
    Next time will use a standard turbo engine oil pump.
    I think it pumps so much oil it causes the turbo bearing seals to leak internally.
    Is stock, mild blueprint, arp rod bolts. Forged pistons, moly rings.
    So far so good. Only running 3-4 pounds boost for longevity.
    350 Holley may be impossible to fit and tune on this engine for dd. N/A has different intake manifold, more clearance.
    The 5200 stock turbo calibrated carb should be plenty.

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    Thanks for the Feedback. The bearings I'm going to run are .001 extra clearance race bearings so I was hoping a hv pump would work. I built a 2.3 when I was 16 and I haven't really touched one since. I started checking the forum but there is a lot of information to get through. I build a lot of engines for work and fun but each one is different so I appreciate any help I get. Thanks!

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    Double check your thoughts on the KB pistons. I know a lot of people who have had durability problems. They can break under normal load or do way more than just break in performance situations.

    What you'll find is that a KB Hypereutetic piston are often barely if any cheaper at all compared to stuff like a Mahle forged piston.

    I was SHOCKED to also find their forged pistons are both lighter and stronger than a
    KB Hypereutetic piston. It quickly ended any debate for me on which I was going to use in any of my future motors.

    If I were building any motor -- even an N/A -- for daily driver duty I would not even consider anything but a forged piston and a strong ring package. The added longevity quickly pays for itself in the savings from avoided rebuild time and replacement gaskets.

    You won't set any records on longevity with 2.3 turbo with a carb on it, unless everything is just exactly right which they were not from the factory. An air/fuel gauge will go a long ways to getting it right, just watch your timing advance and boost levels and also the type of fuel you run in it.

    If you look in the race section here you'll find the details on a 9 second 2.3 Capri RS build and links to the video of some 1/4 mile runs. Notice how consistent the pulls are -- amazing considering he's rowing the gears on a T5 and shifting with the wheels in the air to do it.

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    Thanks for the help. I have used Mahle pistons in a couple of other builds.
    I haven't used the kb pistons but chose them because I wanted durability and price. They are expensive but cheaper than JE my custom go to. I had considered used SVO or T Bird forged pistons but there is some rust in the cylinders as the engine has been sitting open since the mid 80's. Who sells the Mahle pistons for that engine in North America? The ones I have used came from Europe as the engines were European. Boost wise I wouldn't go over 6 or 8 psi. I'm not sure what stock is. My eventual goal is to use the holley stinger efi, as I want a stock appearing engine with better driveability. I didn't want to start with that as I really don't know what car it will stay in. Most of my Capris have V6's and my 2 four cylinder cars have the older pinto 2.0 engines. Fuel will be 94 octane as in Canada that is the only non ethanol fuel we have. I'm mainly building it because I have it and think it is interesting. Most of my Capri's will be sold as I finish them . I don't want to buy another car right now, nor do I want to build and bag this engine. I really want to build a nice vintage daily as I don't like modern cars much. I work at BMW and really hate our products. I stay because I like who I work with and love building engines. I'm always busy..... I want something that I enjoy driving for my commute and to take my kids out in. Thanks again for the help.

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    Hood height with the 8.9 inch deck Lima 2300 turbo will be your main issue.

    Then Detonation with the fuel supply verses boost and advance curve. Without a knock sensor, youll kill the rods, ring lands and conrod bearings with undected incipient knock. Ford added forged pistons because they run 100 Degrees F cooler at wide open throttle, and reduce the onset of knock for a given boost ratio, compression and air fuel ratio.

    The active boost retard with the Yellow Strain Duraspark II was an object lesson in good, prudent avoidance of knock on 87 octane with a 9:1 compression ratio.


    See what others are doing with modern Four or Eight injector TBi.

    Boost ratios of 1.6 under 12 pounds are supported.

    https://youtu.be/WfyofaN0j3g


    Hood height and Fords desire to target only the 132 to 175 hp zone gave the Carb 79/80/81 (Canadas carb Cobra Turbo kept on beingade for another year before the i:1 compression EFi Turbo).

    IMHO, You need to look for an EFi iron header, EFi turbo intake, and a 4bbl adaptor and a proper fuel supply to all four cylinders. Knock and bad air fuel swings on the w
    2 bbl 2.3 carb turbo will cause some tuning matters for you to work around, and you wont pick up knock on a carb turbo engine. I'd grab a 5.0 TPi IROC knock sensor, and then considet some protection. And I'd personally avoid hyper pistons and look at stock issue Ford spec replacements.

    Oh, and welcome. When I get time, I ll post a 2305 Holley 500 cfm carb turbo 79 Brown Coupe. Its autocrossed and is exceptionally well sorted. You can do anything you like, but you cannot cheat detonation if the engine uses a draw through like Fords if you mess with the specification of pistons, compression and your best served with a better fuel delivery from a better manifold.

    Id say 230 hp would be possible safely with that intake and draw through, but you need to do a knock detection system to avoid turning your 41 year old parts into scrap.

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    Thanks for the information. What model used that duraspark box? I joined this forum because I had seen very informed, detailed posts. I have loved Fords all my life but worked as a Mazda tech for 18 years so I am rusty in my knowledge of the Blue Oval. I've been at BMW for 6 years so I'm rusty with carbs and distributors too. I have had my Capri's for 9 ish years but they were far from complete when I got them. I have been collecting parts since but haven't really gotten enough to completely finish one car. When you start with basically bare shells you buy whatever comes up as you can afford it. Capri's have a huge following in Europe and N.A. but parts are getting harder to find. The main reason I want to build this engine now is parts are still available for the carb turbo but due to less popularity vs EFI might be harder to find in the future. I have most parts for the V6 engines and the 2.0 pinto so can turn my attention elsewhere. So, to be clear I want to build this engine properly to begin with but I'm not looking for big power numbers. I would be happy with 150 hp as the car it will go into weigh's 2200lbs. I want (for now) flexibility and economy with enough power to make it fun. This engine won't stay in this car permanently. I want to put different engines in it until I find the combo I am happiest with. The engine bay is big and there are lots of options. If I build the 2.3 properly the first time I can change all the bolt on stuff to suit its final home. Sorry for the long post but wanted to explain myself better. I do have other parts options I will post later. Thanks again for your help.

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    https://fordsix.com/viewtopic.php?f=...ark+II#p606972



    See an overall summary from Four Eye Pride sources at Fordsix.com


    Please note that it took me ages to find out that the Turbo 2.3 Carb enhines were not ever electronically controlled in any state or market, at any time. See Post #11

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    Wow. Lots of info there. As I only have the engine and non of the boost related sensors is there a way of purchasing them? I know msd has boost retard boxes but have found Duraspark is virtually bulletproof in comparison. I have a non running Capri with an Ack Miller draw through kit on its stock 2.6 V6 but it has a dual diaphragm distributor for boost retard. The car is in storage and I cannot get to it presently to check if they did anything else. Thanks again for the help.

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    The yellow strain box is stock with the carb turbo engines, at least my 79 has one.
    Motorcraft DY-237A, D9AZ-12A199C. D8AE-12A244AB is etched on my spare module.
    Three connectors. Main one has two connectors, two and 4 prong. The 3rd plug has 3 prongs.
    It connects to the main harness, 3 prong to the factory sensor array on the fender for timing boost control.

    Car is a dd. Owned since 1980. First engine got 220k, cracked a top ring. Fooling around eventually did that (one 7200 shift, etc.)
    Is on 2nd build. 150k. Same head, block, crank, rods, valves, springs. Keeping RPM limit at 5k rpm no more (not needed).
    Happy with accel as is. Ford A231 cam straight up, Ranger header, stock exhaust, clutch, pulleys.
    Getting 20-25 mpg city/hwy, mostly a factor of driving for econ or having fun.

    MSD boost retard modules are the only ones i know of besides the stock assy, which is rarely found. I look for spares.
    Read 2 stage stock unit retards -6° at 3#, second step is another -6° at 6#. Module retards the dis electrically.
    Ford shop manual says -100 rpm at .5-1.0#, another 100 rpm drop at 3.75-4.25# via timing retard curve.
    May get away with no retard, low boost and high octane fuel.

    Using Motorcraft FL-1A and nothing else. 10w30. Strong oil pressure, have to drive easy when cold.
    Motorcraft wires, cap, rotor, plugs AGSF-32CA (AWSF-32C).
    When rebuilt, did not adjust wastegate to stock 5-6. Hard to get at. 4 is fine. Can do 7#+ with vac hose trick.
    Did that once on dry blacktop. Spun so much could pedal it like on wet pavement.
    When wet out, can easily 'pedal it' in 1st and most of 2nd.
    Took to the strip once being easy with new engine. No traction.
    Boost starts at 1800-2000, very good engine pull at around 3000-3200 (75+ in 5th).
    Cruises fine 1200 up in 4th no buck even floored from there.
    No knocks or pecking with good load of 87 octane. 3.45 gear, stock dia tires.

    My 2.3 93 Ranger 5 speed has that factory roller cam. Lots of torque down low, ok on freeway.
    Same 3.45 gear, more weight, larger tires.

    6/18/2018, 2800 launch tire signature all first gear. Backed off to turn right into 3rd drive in pic to park.
    148,000 on rebuild. Just replaced the rr lca and had to test the repair. Have added 10k more miles since.

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    The control solenoids are the same as Jeeps till about 1985, and the Ranger Ford trucks. The operation is via throttle positioner solenoids and the ignition has no dual advance. Everything is done via energizing and deenergizing thru do if true boost presure sensor. Gr79s elaborated on the VECI and EVTM schematics above.

    Ford eliminated knock by a very conservative means tested, boost retarded advance curve. The carb has much richer well tubes, and very rich secondary jetting. The stock boost is 5.5 psi, with a nominal 6 psi quoted.

    The turbo is internally the same as the MG Metro, Lotus Esprit, and Escort/EXA Turbo. The Holden used a non intercooled version of the Nissan RB30 sohc six, and the Nissan Z series non ŹDAPs Z20E. The turbo can make 350 hp with failure, or 230 to 265 hp with reasonable reliability. The stock Ford 2.3 Carb turbo intake isnt a patch on the Bosch K and Triple Ķ turboed BMW 2002 Turbo's branch runner system. Ford log headed the 2bbl intake from the primary and secondary barrels, while GMs Pontiac 301 purposely siameshed the Chevy Gen 1 style intake runners, just like a StoveBolt and Bluefkame derived 292. The intake could make a lot of power if gr79s Ranger header and 2305 series 500 cfm carb was used with a better low restriction exhaust.

    The stock 3.45 axle gearing with its 4:1 first and lousy 2 st and 3rd is also a near disaster compared to the close ratio BMW 5 speed gearboxes, and even the European close ratio V6 2.8 four speed. Close ratios with the Five Speed Turbos 1980 0.80 top do a do a lot to help the wacky ratios designed to cope with 2650 to 2850 pounds optioned up Zephyrs and Mustangs/RS Capris in traffic jams.

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    Thanks guys! A couple of questions as I have yet to purchase parts for this engine. Is the A231 or other motorsport cams available? I chose the SVO cam as I can get it easily and it will provide a usable power boost. Where can I get forged mahle pistons for this engine? Lastly, do you have part numbers for any of the solenoids, boost sensors etc required to make this safely run and where can I get them? I know painless makes a duraspark harness which will help but I don't know what else I need. Thanks again for the help. This is incredible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm View Post
    Thanks guys! A couple of questions as I have yet to purchase parts for this engine. Is the A231 or other motorsport cams available? I chose the SVO cam as I can get it easily and it will provide a usable power boost. Where can I get forged mahle pistons for this engine? Lastly, do you have part numbers for any of the solenoids, boost sensors etc required to make this safely run and where can I get them? I know painless makes a duraspark harness which will help but I don't know what else I need. Thanks again for the help. This is incredible.

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    For the Null Knobs and Sensors, Ford had a basic grocery list in 1979, and its been appended.

    Green #1 RNR and Orange (or Red if you are a closet color blind) #4 RNR is a Rotary Null Restriction that adjusts set-points, as do the two Pink and one Yellow items below it.

    #1RNR - No. 1 Runner (Intake Manifold, metal vacuum lines)
    #4RNR - No. 4 Runner (Intake Manifold, metal vacuum lines)

    They are life of car parts, not listed for replacement, but there will be a number for it. Its beyond my scope, but NumbersDummy at the Ford Truck Forum normally has access to the Truck interchange items.



    From Red '78

    http://myzephyrs.com/vac_part_name.htm

    Vac Part Name

    gr79 in post #54
    M81 Mclaren in posts #57

    on page 3 here list a further breakdown

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...um-lines/page3

    The control knobs are colored, but all the same inside.

    1-bbl 2.0/2.3 liter Ranger before the two 2-bbl carb on the 1987's,
    all the 1-bbl 1980-1986 4.9 liter in line Six F trucks, E vans

    Early 258 Jeeps from 1981 to 1985 have three knobs,

    the Carb 2.3 turbo, five

    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy View Post






    Its the same as the ones backing up a 50 year old YF Carter carb electroncially like on this 1984 2.3 Ranger

    http://www.therangerstation.com/foru...d.php?t=123801



    Green (RNR#1) and Orange (RNR#4) on the Top plate

    Then Pink, Pink (first two) (SPARK RETARD) and the last (the 3rd) is also spark control. Pink, Pink, Yellow on the bottom Bottom plate.

    Yellow is a factory set Solenoid.

    Again, IIRC, there is an additional possibly Red "Sol V" for A/C Throttle Kicker to add 50 rpm to the idle speed, but its separate from the Yellow Strain Relief Duraspark SII.

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    I'm not entirely sure what you mean by nul knobs. I see what you mean just don't get the reference. I'm also struggling a bit with the acronyms you guys use. It took me a bit to get # is for pounds of boost. Sorry, I'm working on it. Anyway, some carb options I have. I have a feedback 2100 from a 2.8 ranger, a 38dgas Weber, a 390 cm holley, a 450 cm holley and a holley 500 cfm Rochester replacement ( It was on a high hp 2.0 pinto engine). I also have a 350 cfm 2300 and various 2100 motor craft carbs including a VV rebuilt for a 302 crown vic. I also have an offy dual port and a stock intake and 5200. And of course the turbo 5200 and intake. I'm not sure if any of these are more suitable than the stock turbo carb. I know it is possible to up the cfm of the 5200. I read about using the ranger header on a post here. Where I live it is hard to find older cars in the wreckers so I will really have to research finding supplies for the vac parts. Thanks again for the help

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    The VECI and EVTMs define parts names. 105 VECI parts exist for carburator vehicles.

    Other blue tooth tune systems can do most things electronically.

    The issue is retyping it all. Fords system is the same as the BPN numerical system. The Basic Part Number system forces you to understand stuff. Some terms are a reaction to not having a good name. Thats why we all try and use photos to Name and Claim all this.

    EFi cars are much more simple in the control of spark and air fuel.

    The most complicated aspect is creating a flat fuel curve that adjusts for temperature and boost. Weber based Holleys are easily taken into the 335+ cfm range, verses a conservative 227 cfm stock using the Weber pressure drop. The biggest issye for a turbo is exhaust bsck pressure. Any reduction in backpressure results in better response and easier carb tune.

    I like carbs. Ill find that turbo draw through 79 coupe.

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    I hope you do. My grade 7 school trip was to the River Rouge plant where the first fox bodies were rolling off the line. The actual 79 pace car was in the foyer. We followed a group of cars being built, and my eyes were glued to a red RS Capri. Red interior, sunroof, trx suspension and a 2.8 V6 and a 4 speed. They gave me the vin number when I asked. I dreamed of finding that car. Loved them ever since. Got caught up in imports for a long time but when I retire I want to restore fox body cars. This forum is a great resource. Thanks so much for the help. I like carbs too, and doing different engines. I hope I can do this one justice. I want to buy ford interchange manuals and also the 2.3 turbo manual. I realize I have lots to learn, and I'm looking forward to it.

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    Dang you have spent a couple of minutes on this. I don't know where you work but they don't pay you enough. Thanks for the 5200 information, I have quite a few of them. Thanks to everyone actually, you guys are great. For now I'm going to look for forged 8:1 pistons and build the short block. Head will be next and hopefully that will give me time to find all the vac parts. I will start with the stock 5200 for now. Any particular preference for duraspark box? Rock auto shows a few but the motor craft one is my choice. Same question for the pick up. Thanks again. Cheers!

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    Ford four cylinder cams from old Ford Motorsport catalog:

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    Thanks for the chart
    Does anyone make a cam like the 231? There is a lot of info in this forum and its taking me a bit to read everything so sorry for the stupid questions. While I am off work right now there is no shortage of things to take up my time. I'm trying to finish my last "customer " car so I can concentrate on my cars. Here is a pic of what I got with my engine as far as the vac and intake goes. The other vac lines are for the smog pump. I really need to buy a manual to help me understand this. What is the best one to buy? Did Ford put out something specific to the carb turbo engine? Thanks!

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    Yes, the external boost referneced power valve has a specfic Holley Weber Motorcraft part number, you wont turn a stock non turbo carb into a turbo one unless you do some drastic work. The primary venturis were downsized for economy from 1980 on the non turbos.

    The air horn is the different part. It lookes like the turbo carb, but check with gr79.


    Or look here.


    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...ID-numbers-etc

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    The things you learn as a BMW service tech allow you to back track through the pre-electronic control systems era with relative ease. What Robert L Bosch did was much more advanced, but Ford decided the Bosch D Jetronic would be un-serviceable, and did some Making and Breaking of the constituent parts you'd find in early Aston Martin DBS V8s, Citroen DS23s, VW Type 3s and the early Bosch D 280E Benzes.

    The VECI details are itemized in my posts because I took time out to learn them while others were busy blowing up there engines and disrespecting Fords extremely expensive and thorough engineering efforts. My service tech boss taught me to use technical info, and not try to remove something unless I knew the theory first. Having said that, I removed everything from my 4.1 liter LP Gas Falcon Cross Flow, but kept everything on my Turbo LPG Cologne V6 2.3 1982 Ford Cortina Ghia, and left everything on my 81 3.3 liter Mustang.

    The basics are a lot of fun. The application, a little more.difficult, especially with EGR and Evaporative Emissions doing "Shared Services" duties with other vac parts. Unless another Ford service tech tells you, you are in the 66% of the pie graph that says "you don't know what you don't know".



    its a Pac man that in 1978 to 1985 Carb Fords, it eats technicians up.

    I work on the yellow side, the Green and Blue I know.

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    Its humble pie for sure! I see from your bio you are from New Zealand. We we left England my Dad wanted to move there, my mum wanted Canada. Dad lost. You live in a beautiful country. The problem with being a BMW tech is we build truly terrible cars that everybody wants because they think they are wonderful. They are unnecessary complicated, poorly engineered expensive junk. You have to diagnose through a test plan, which then gives you a diag code for the part you are supposed to replace. I spend all of my time manipulating the test plan to allow me to fix what's wrong instead of what the diag code calls for. Oftentimes you have to replace 4 or 5 components before you are allowed to replace the cause of the problem. Warranty or retail. It gets very expensive. That's why I prefer doing their engine work. Anyway, take care. Thanks again

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm View Post
    Its humble pie for sure! I see from your bio you are from New Zealand. We we left England my Dad wanted to move there, my mum wanted Canada. Dad lost. You live in a beautiful country. The problem with being a BMW tech is we build truly terrible cars that everybody wants because they think they are wonderful. They are unnecessary complicated, poorly engineered expensive junk. You have to diagnose through a test plan, which then gives you a diag code for the part you are supposed to replace. I spend all of my time manipulating the test plan to allow me to fix what's wrong instead of what the diag code calls for. Oftentimes you have to replace 4 or 5 components before you are allowed to replace the cause of the problem. Warranty or retail. It gets very expensive. That's why I prefer doing their engine work. Anyway, take care. Thanks again

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    The key thing is, image and having a car that isn't a Ford is important to a lot of people. Embedded marketing came out early, Ford has kept its hands out of that while the low hanging fruit has been around.

    I'm adopted, so my natural relatives are a South African family, and both they and my expat SA friend love them because your not dealing with other cattle who have trodden through Automotive Nirvana. All the German Fords during the Bob Lutz era are the same. Locking up the knowledge base and keeping the engine bay sanctified is great Quality Assurance. Mercedes Benz and BMW use the same technique, because all my friends drive BMW's and Benz's. And all Premium Automotive service technicians deal with the same issues. SA, NZ, USA...

    IMHO Best thing the FoMoCo Germans ever did was put Torxs bolts on the Cologne engines, and eventually, US OBDII EECV computers on the German Cologne engines, French transmission-ed Explorers. Even better, the SOHC per bank chain guides forced full engine extraction.

    Its not just BMW, you know.

    The Diesel M21 and ZF 4 Stage auto diesel Fox Lincoln Continental Mark VII LSC Turbo Diesel and Lincoln Continental 7th Gen was a perfect use of a BMW engine. The L code 2.4 engine was faster than the gasoline X code 3.3.

    Anyway, Boers are trained to practice Guerrilla warfare, and that's the right technique. Spray it with the best service tools and an hourly rate.

  25. #25
    New User
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    London Ontario Canada
    Posts
    49

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    I have driven a MK VII with the diesel and was pleasantly surprised. Not a powerhouse but smooth and good mileage. In Canada the 5 series of the same vintage was basically a diesel M5. Same spoilers, suspension and interior with euro lights. Really wanted one but cannot find one that isn't too beat or rotted. I have enough distractions anyway. Trying to some of my cars roadworthy while I'm off work. Thanks again for the help

    Sent from my SM-A705W using Tapatalk

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