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  1. #26
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    I'm no body man, but that doesn't look too bad. I would definitely use seam sealer where the factory had used it. I would clean it all up, fix it, coat it with POR-15 and put it back together.
    '89 XR-7 5 Speed
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  2. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinVarnes View Post
    I'm no body man, but that doesn't look too bad. I would definitely use seam sealer where the factory had used it. I would clean it all up, fix it, coat it with POR-15 and put it back together.
    Ok cool thanks for the response!

    I had thought that por-15 is only good for rusty surfaces, and I think there will be a mix of new metal and cleaned up rusty metal so wasn’t sure if that would work or not. And doesn’t por-15 need to be painted if it is exposed to uv rays?

    Again this is just stuff I had read, I have used por-15 in the past and it is good stuff. Hardens like a rock and is a very durable surface.
    79 Zephyr, 4.6L 4v/4r70w swap, with team z front and rear suspension, 8.8 and upgraded brakes and coil overs. Running Holley Terminator X Max.

  3. #28

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    So I’m trying to figure this out
    from the factory, the panels are seam sealed first, then spot welded?
    Not sure I can duplicate that.
    so next best thing would be to apply rust encapsulator/rust inhibiter to all areas, then weld through that, and add seam sealer afterwards?

    thanks for any advice

    definitely don’t want any leaks
    79 Zephyr, 4.6L 4v/4r70w swap, with team z front and rear suspension, 8.8 and upgraded brakes and coil overs. Running Holley Terminator X Max.

  4. #29
    FEP Super Member JTurbo's Avatar
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    I’m pretty sure panels are spot welded then seam sealer is applied. Then paint.

    After cleaning up rust, apply POR15 to areas not being welded. Then use weld thru primer to areas that need welding. Clean welds and add POR15 or more weld thru primer. Final step should be seam sealer. If you want to cheap out, you can pick up a tube of black roofing tar and use that to seal up joints. Water proof and won’t dry up. But don’t use it where the windshield is attached to the frame (won’t harden enough).

    You’re doing great work, keep it up.
    1979 Indy Pace Car Mustang 302 / 5spd
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  5. #30
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Thanx for the pics and the thread. Structural ones are valuable for advanced rust. Saved them.
    Car and truck here are similar rusty in many other spots.

    Weld, rivet, glue, or epoxy metal, then seam seal. Bondo has talc and attracts water- needs to be sealed on both sides.

    Have used seam sealer to repair rear hatch and door bottom seam rust. It will glue down flat patch metal with clamping.
    Used custom formed metal and rivets to repair rust out at roof to 1/4 panel corner near the hatch hinges.
    Similar to the A panel area shown.
    Did not remove cowl. Used a digital inspection snake camera to check condition at ducts. Touched up seams with hammered paint.

    Last fall tooled on wet or dry black roofing cement to repair rear wheel well rust outs.
    Gallon size is inexpensive. Bought the good stuff. Plenty left over for later.
    Applied and worked material with paint mix stick. Curved and flat rust outs were backed with metal gutter mesh.
    Finally has 'hardened' up to touch and is flexible. Looks normal again.
    I also use mesh or fiberglass cloth with resin too when doing bodywork. Cut and paste.
    Remove pin holed metal back to solid or else patch may fail. Remove metal rust as much as possible. Snips and wide pliers work good.

  6. #31

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    Thank you for the helpful responses!
    because this rust through is directly above pretty much all of the important wiring under the dash (headlight switch, ignition switch, fuse box, etc) I really would like to weld in some new steel and seam seal it to prevent further leaks. Also I plan on mounting my ECM up under dash between gas pedal and head box.
    so I really want to make sure it stays dry to eliminate any future electrical problems.
    I also noted that the seam sealer on the passenger side top hat is dried out as well. Was thinking of trying to weld up the flange and re seal it, but might just re seal it. Then again, while the top cowl is off, might as well try everything I can so I don’t have to do this over again lol

    the seam sealer is dried out at the bottom corners of the windshield also. Does the stock seam sealer have a certain life span?
    I saw some seam sealer on the Eastwood site. But then I heard the 3m stuff is the best.
    anyone have an opinion one way or another?

    thanks!
    79 Zephyr, 4.6L 4v/4r70w swap, with team z front and rear suspension, 8.8 and upgraded brakes and coil overs. Running Holley Terminator X Max.

  7. #32
    FEP Senior Member Tigger's Avatar
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    I believe the urethane seam sealer of today is way more durable than the seam sealer of the 70's and 80's. I have no opinion on brands, I have just made sure I was using urethane.
    67 Mustang Coupe
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  8. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    I believe the urethane seam sealer of today is way more durable than the seam sealer of the 70's and 80's. I have no opinion on brands, I have just made sure I was using urethane.
    thank you for the helpful advice.
    was thinking of going with Eastwood brush on stuff and just coating the whole thing to completely seal it off from outside moisture.
    anyone have experience with this product?
    thanks!
    79 Zephyr, 4.6L 4v/4r70w swap, with team z front and rear suspension, 8.8 and upgraded brakes and coil overs. Running Holley Terminator X Max.

  9. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    I believe the urethane seam sealer of today is way more durable than the seam sealer of the 70's and 80's. I have no opinion on brands, I have just made sure I was using urethane.
    thank you for the helpful advice.
    was thinking of going with Eastwood brush on stuff and just coating the whole thing to completely seal it off from outside moisture.
    anyone have experience with this product?
    thanks!
    79 Zephyr, 4.6L 4v/4r70w swap, with team z front and rear suspension, 8.8 and upgraded brakes and coil overs. Running Holley Terminator X Max.

  10. #35
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Great thread - super progress on the car. I've never really thought about what one would look like without the cowl panel on until seeing yours.

    Whatever you do with it -- be sure to make it so water cannot and does not collect in low spots. If it does it will sit there and rust out that area. You could go old school with some lead filler in low areas or a waterproof filler like "rot out" or many other options. clean it up and top coat it when you're done.

    We had to put a temporary patch panel in one of our foxes by the windshield -- water was coming in. POR-15 or Extends or some other rust encapsulator followed by an adhesive caulking and metal actually lasts quite a while and gets the job done until there's a chance to do a proper repair down the road.

  11. #36
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Agreed on the cowl pic. Perfect view.
    Found leaves and muck in mine. Added window screen under the cowl grill. Catches debris.

    Me? Would consider rivets vs welding to make it removable in the future. Seam seal can be removed.
    Have done that in areas found to be problem rust or fastener access areas. Metal access inspection plates.

    Seam sealer gets old and back then we know materials were not as advanced as now.
    Higher cost= better materials. As long as higher cost is not from a huge mark up.

    What i like owning a dd non show car? Doing better repairs on now known weak or badly designed areas.
    Especially hidden areas you can hide with trim.

    Defiantly looking into adding jacking rails. Already have convertible bracing, subframe connectors, torque box plates.
    Car is so old am leery of having it lifted in a shop without drive on ramps.

    Repost of pics of my roof hatch panel seam repair. Not shown: Sprayed area with black hammered paint.
    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...nd-rust-repair

  12. #37

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    Thank you for the idea of the window screening under the cowl grill!
    Absolute genius.

    i ordered some rust encapsulator ultra and brushable seam sealer from Eastwood.
    I have a line on a lower cowl piece, but it is taking a long time and not sure when (or if) it will ever arrive.
    I have a huge pile of brand new parts that I can’t install because I don’t want to jack up the car with the cowl cover panel removed.
    So I may end up biting the bullet and buying some sheet metal and just cutting and forming my own patch panel for that area. The hat or “stovepipe” piece might present a challenge but it doesn’t have to look perfect, just has to not leak.
    All this in the spirit of keeping things moving forward. I have a really small garage, and not a lot of room to stack parts. Plus I still have the drivetrain from the donor car that is in another garage that I am still paying rent on, so this unexpected roadblock is really messing up the timing of the entire swap in a few different ways lol

    I have the MIG I can use to tack the patch panel, and a TIG to finish weld it. I have some body hammers and dollys here so hopefully will be able to form a proper patch.
    Last edited by massacre; 04-27-2020 at 05:58 PM.
    79 Zephyr, 4.6L 4v/4r70w swap, with team z front and rear suspension, 8.8 and upgraded brakes and coil overs. Running Holley Terminator X Max.

  13. #38

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    So I gave up waiting for the used cowl piece, got some sheet metal and had at it.

    Ended up making the stupid stovepipe piece or top hat. The stock stovepipe is rotted pretty bad, was able to remove it without damaging the stovepipe itself, but I ended up murdering those tabs on the inside. Which is fine, I plan to cut them off anyways.

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    Made a paper template first, then started drilling, cutting, grinding and filing. Trying to sneak up on the sharpie marks

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    79 Zephyr, 4.6L 4v/4r70w swap, with team z front and rear suspension, 8.8 and upgraded brakes and coil overs. Running Holley Terminator X Max.

  14. #39

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    It’s only halfway finished, but it fits like a glove just laying it in place. I’ll clean it up and finish welding it out.

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    Then I’ll have to make a plan of attack for the rest of the sheet metal underneath this.
    I’m thinking of locating the finished stovepipe in the stock location, then welding in some temporary braces to hold it there. Then cutting that whole section out from the bottom.
    underneath the stovepipe is the fresh air vent so it needs to go back in relatively the same location. Car has no AC so ventilation becomes more important lol
    I am somewhat worried about cutting a huge section out all at once though, as far as tweaking the chassis. I’ll have to cut out about a little less than a third of the lower panel. But maybe if I brace it really good, I should be fine?

    The other option is to just cut out smaller sections one at a time. There are some bends in that lower piece, and I don’t have a sheet metal brake.
    I can kinda try and fudge it, but this is 14 gauge cold rolled steel. Not the end of the world, but not super easy to bend. I have some light body hammers and dollys here and a small anvil and some clamps. But that’s about it. Gotta get creative sometimes.

    So the idea of individually welded sections is appealing since it means less bends. I can weld everything from both sides as well.
    79 Zephyr, 4.6L 4v/4r70w swap, with team z front and rear suspension, 8.8 and upgraded brakes and coil overs. Running Holley Terminator X Max.

  15. #40
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    New fabricated part looks great. Keep at it and you'll have that whole area cleaned up and repaired in no time. I don't have any great advice because I hate working on repairing sheet metal like that.
    '89 XR-7 5 Speed
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  16. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinVarnes View Post
    New fabricated part looks great. Keep at it and you'll have that whole area cleaned up and repaired in no time. I don't have any great advice because I hate working on repairing sheet metal like that.
    Thanks for the kind words!
    It’s not my favorite thing either, but it is necessary to keep the build moving forward.
    79 Zephyr, 4.6L 4v/4r70w swap, with team z front and rear suspension, 8.8 and upgraded brakes and coil overs. Running Holley Terminator X Max.

  17. #42
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Default New metal cowl panel repair section (s). Where are they? 10-20 years away?

    Been studying the really good pics with story line. Good as any pro work ive seen.
    Bet more than one good independent small body shop would do this and finishes before customer sees anything.
    Arouse unfounded suspicions and questions about handmade repairs vs new metal cowl section (if available).

    Am imagining the pics were of my car, same situation someday. Now to check it out as high priority.
    Have a water leak in ds footwell. No water trails from weatherstrips. Hmmm, the first hole in cowl as pictured?
    Rusty metal, new metal, sealers.

    Thinking: cowl outer surface is similar function as metal rv roof. Handles water, forms a part of vehicle body structure.
    The outside of 'roof' (cowl shape and drains) are for the driver and passenger foot well. Similar to 'interior of rv'.
    Most of the 'roof' underside (interior, foot well side of cowl) is pretty well hidden from view or inspection by ceiling (dash).

    Picturing cowl shape as a water/air management tray, air intake oval collars as projections thru a roof (cowl). Stacks, mini chimney.
    Major part of unibody structure. Subject to improvements. Fix design, materials. No real cost or time limit due to priority.

    Rusty perforated metal- Have been cutting out (underseat ps floorpan). Stabilize any rust and add metal rust protection.
    Leave firewall and under windshield metal intact.

    Fab new metal cowl panel section with square sheet of metal. 1' x 1' or something. Impossible if cowl top is still on car.
    Form flat, 1/4, or all the way up firewall and windshield bulkhead. Tuck ends under top edge of the bulkheads.
    Cut out duct hole. Locate collar and fasten/weld to cowl section. Install assy as one part. Waterproof the seams.
    Will use sticky flexible plastic roof cement instead of seam seal on seams. Like doing a vent stack's flashing on the roof.
    Seam sealer wont last to patch or flash a metal rv roof. Inner cowl is not as exposed to elements, but close.
    Sticky roof cement and even Kool-Seal Elastomeric roof coat on top of the cement. Next levels up?
    Kool Seal sticks and stretches sort of like thin Plasti-Dip. From experience either, properly applied, are tough.
    I can do this now due even with limited access thru cowl grill and wiper linkage arms in the way.

    Has to be fairly harsh in there to ever rust like that. Wow mines been outside since 1980. Seen very little rust last look.
    Have a new grill going on next week. Good time to get out the snake camera again.

    A custom molded plastic liner over the entire cowl tray, like a wheel well liner handles water. The right plastic, heat molded in place.
    But then the metal under a liner may rust. Have to have metal there, as primary or secondary inside layer of structure.
    Likely this would be overkill or overthinking this.

  18. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by gr79 View Post
    Been studying the really good pics with story line. Good as any pro work ive seen.
    Bet more than one good independent small body shop would do this and finishes before customer sees anything.
    Arouse unfounded suspicions and questions about handmade repairs vs new metal cowl section (if available).

    Am imagining the pics were of my car, same situation someday. Now to check it out as high priority.
    Have a water leak in ds footwell. No water trails from weatherstrips. Hmmm, the first hole in cowl as pictured?
    Rusty metal, new metal, sealers.

    Thinking: cowl outer surface is similar function as metal rv roof. Handles water, forms a part of vehicle body structure.
    The outside of 'roof' (cowl shape and drains) are for the driver and passenger foot well. Similar to 'interior of rv'.
    Most of the 'roof' underside (interior, foot well side of cowl) is pretty well hidden from view or inspection by ceiling (dash).

    Picturing cowl shape as a water/air management tray, air intake oval collars as projections thru a roof (cowl). Stacks, mini chimney.
    Major part of unibody structure. Subject to improvements. Fix design, materials. No real cost or time limit due to priority.

    Rusty perforated metal- Have been cutting out (underseat ps floorpan). Stabilize any rust and add metal rust protection.
    Leave firewall and under windshield metal intact.

    Fab new metal cowl panel section with square sheet of metal. 1' x 1' or something. Impossible if cowl top is still on car.
    Form flat, 1/4, or all the way up firewall and windshield bulkhead. Tuck ends under top edge of the bulkheads.
    Cut out duct hole. Locate collar and fasten/weld to cowl section. Install assy as one part. Waterproof the seams.
    Will use sticky flexible plastic roof cement instead of seam seal on seams. Like doing a vent stack's flashing on the roof.
    Seam sealer wont last to patch or flash a metal rv roof. Inner cowl is not as exposed to elements, but close.
    Sticky roof cement and even Kool-Seal Elastomeric roof coat on top of the cement. Next levels up?
    Kool Seal sticks and stretches sort of like thin Plasti-Dip. From experience either, properly applied, are tough.
    I can do this now due even with limited access thru cowl grill and wiper linkage arms in the way.

    Has to be fairly harsh in there to ever rust like that. Wow mines been outside since 1980. Seen very little rust last look.
    Have a new grill going on next week. Good time to get out the snake camera again.

    A custom molded plastic liner over the entire cowl tray, like a wheel well liner handles water. The right plastic, heat molded in place.
    But then the metal under a liner may rust. Have to have metal there, as primary or secondary inside layer of structure.
    Likely this would be overkill or overthinking this.
    Thanks for the response!
    yeah like you said it is water management. I don’t own an RV, never have so I am unfamiliar with those but can see what you are saying.
    My plan is to weld in only the metal that is necessary. I did not want to cut out the complete bottom of the cowl, because like you said-it’s a major part of the chassis. I leveled the car with bottle jacks before cutting anything out, and she is still level so I’m glad about that.
    79 Zephyr, 4.6L 4v/4r70w swap, with team z front and rear suspension, 8.8 and upgraded brakes and coil overs. Running Holley Terminator X Max.

  19. #44

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    Made a little progress on the cowl. Started to weld in the main patch panel yesterday. Once that was in, I could make the piece to go from the cowl to the firewall.
    It went pretty easy except for the thinner existing metal. But that is what they make grinders for lmao.

    I am only looking for watertight, don’t care about looks because this will all be covered by the top of the cowl.
    once it’s watertight, I have some rust encapsulator and then some brushable seam sealer.
    Hoping this will be enough to stop the cowl leaks because I do not want water in that location. That is where most of the wiring is going to be, plus pedals and steering wheel.

    This obviously needs more grinding and more pieces welded in, but here is where I am at

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    Again this will need a lot more work in some areas, but I figure the smoother stuff should be OK with seam sealer
    Sorry about the bird poop welds, panel is thicker and the welds ended up going where they needed to go, not necessarily in the best location for looks.
    That raised rectangular section is stock, I don’t have a lot of metalworking tools handy, so recreating that raised section would be very difficult. So I just cut around it instead. Figured it must be there for a reason lol. Problem is it is very thin there and had to add a lot of filler welds to seal up pinholes.
    Last edited by massacre; 05-19-2020 at 06:38 PM.
    79 Zephyr, 4.6L 4v/4r70w swap, with team z front and rear suspension, 8.8 and upgraded brakes and coil overs. Running Holley Terminator X Max.

  20. #45
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Looks fine from here. Major step done. Good way to get to know your welder. Seam sealer will hide and seal.

    Now that the weather here is starting to be decent, time to go at rust too.
    Where is that garage I have been asking Santa for years?
    Have new cowl grill. Newly inspired to check area with water test. See where the water goes.
    Keeping in mind the cowl and base of windshield area is positive pressure air flow.
    Restarting ps wheel well project. Finish behind rear wheel, then rear seat floor pan area replacement metal.
    Like you, desire to do better than factory.
    Am tying in new floor pan metal with already installed lower torque box reinforcement kit.
    Have to address rusty sub frame there too. Want to add more structural metal too.
    No pics yet. The rust damage is obscene to look at.

  21. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by gr79 View Post
    Looks fine from here. Major step done. Good way to get to know your welder. Seam sealer will hide and seal.

    Now that the weather here is starting to be decent, time to go at rust too.
    Where is that garage I have been asking Santa for years?
    Have new cowl grill. Newly inspired to check area with water test. See where the water goes.
    Keeping in mind the cowl and base of windshield area is positive pressure air flow.
    Restarting ps wheel well project. Finish behind rear wheel, then rear seat floor pan area replacement metal.
    Like you, desire to do better than factory.
    Am tying in new floor pan metal with already installed lower torque box reinforcement kit.
    Have to address rusty sub frame there too. Want to add more structural metal too.
    No pics yet. The rust damage is obscene to look at.

    Thanks!
    ”fine from here” is good enough for this job. It’s ugly and I know it. If this was a visible seam I would have approached it differently and prob cut further back but did not want to compromise the chassis.
    But like you said seam sealer should smooth everything out. Looking forward to getting this all set so I can move forward with the project.
    79 Zephyr, 4.6L 4v/4r70w swap, with team z front and rear suspension, 8.8 and upgraded brakes and coil overs. Running Holley Terminator X Max.

  22. #47
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Seen a few factory welded spots on my car that were not done by machine and are fine.
    My welds included. 20 years and still good. Front frame rails. Ground beads to look 'smooth'.
    Drivers door frame, at the rear part of sill, is next on list.

    Quite a few times, by the time i got the welder settings dialed in, the welding is almost done.
    Welds can be tidied up with a air hand grinder and flap disk if desired, wide chisels for knocking off weld bb's.
    Have done weld inspection on large new production parts racks for GM body panels and Ford F-150 alum doors.
    Mainly looked for missed welds with flashlight.
    Pre cut square tubing and gussets were jigged, tacked, and hand welded.
    They did not clean the metal before welding. Racks were power washed and blow dried before production painting.

    Production hand welders weld all day. Miller machines, large spools.
    Weld bead look varied widely per skill level. All good if weld penetrated correctly.
    There are times where stitch welds were done rather than continuous.
    Most all use auto shade helmets. One old guy used a cheap hand held mask.

    Robots are amazing at how consistent they weld. Cameras do qc check afterward. Then air leak tests.
    No leaks allowed (Freightliner/Detroit Diesel 2000#cat assemblies).
    Robotic welding cell operators changed robot welding tips once an hour.
    Special .045 wire for production welding stainless came in drums.
    Shield gas was plumbed throughout weld areas from outside storage tanks.
    Robots do make mistakes. Repair hand welders stay busy all shift long. Can always tell by the bead.
    Their welder dials were set per company spec.
    Every place ive been used good brand weld wire. So do i. No HF wire.
    Was using .030 but found .024 is plenty.
    Last edited by gr79; 05-19-2020 at 11:22 PM.

  23. #48

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    Some more progress today. Spent 6hrs on getting the rear piece welded in.
    I don’t have any metalworking tools to speak of, just hammer and anvil, angle grinder and hand files.
    This piece was the most difficult, since there are factory brackets in the interior behind the cowl that I had to cut around.
    also many compound curves and angles, and the height of the patch varied quite a bit, the template ended up being pretty intricate.

    Took me about 6hr to get the patch cut, fitted and welded. Had to tack the piece in, and bend/ hammer the piece and then make another tack, repeat for all the weird curves and angles.
    In this pic, you can see some remaining welds which were filling a couple pinholes, I’ll grind those tomorrow, weld in the stovepipe and then I can apply rust encapsulator and seam sealer and get the damn cowl back together so I can get back on track with this project.

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    79 Zephyr, 4.6L 4v/4r70w swap, with team z front and rear suspension, 8.8 and upgraded brakes and coil overs. Running Holley Terminator X Max.

  24. #49

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    Here is the template for that piece

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    79 Zephyr, 4.6L 4v/4r70w swap, with team z front and rear suspension, 8.8 and upgraded brakes and coil overs. Running Holley Terminator X Max.

  25. #50
    FEP Power Member gmatt's Avatar
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    Impressive. Just shows what can be accomplished when you put your mind to it.

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