Looking for swap info for CFI --> EFI

[CP GT-350]

Hi , looking for some help .....
I have a 1984 Mustang 20th Anniversary Edition , 5.0 CFI , AOD and am looking to put the newer EFI system in .
I have the main wiring harness (F2ZB 12A581 P260H AB) and ECU C3W from a 92 Mustang 5.0 Auto . Upper and Lower intake ,distributor , Fuel rails , will be purchasing off road H-pipe and exhaust
what other parts will I need ??
Big question is ......Can i use original AOD ??

Looking for as much detail as possible since i am only an auto painter and have only basic mechanical knowledge
Thank You !! Any advice or guidance is much appreciated !!

[wraithracing]

Yes, you can still use the AOD. The transmission is not electronic so there are no computer control of it. You will need the correct TV cable to hook up to the throttle body and transmission, but that should just be a standard replacement for a 1987-93 EFI Mustang with an AOD. You also want to make sure that it is correctly adjusted otherwise major transmission damage can occur. Good Luck!

[David Claflin]

Do a search for conversion, several others have done a similar swap and posted about it in different forums on here.

[emerygt350]

I would love to see what you gain in power by moving to sefi keeping the heads the same.

[4eyedblind]

You are good, the CFI fuel pump and lines are the same capacity as the SEFI stuff. You'll have to terminate them differently, of course to connect up to the rails.

[CP GT-350]

Thanks everybody at least i have a place to start now !
I was ripped off by a mechanic who was hired to do the swap that is why it is at the stage its in right now . I guess I am finally done being pissed off about it and am ready to try and finish it . I've owned the car since the early 90s and it was last driven in the mid 2000s .

[xctasy]

I would love to see what you gain in power by moving to sefi keeping the heads the same.

On V8s, its been proven that indirect port Sequential EFi (SEFi) yeilds NO increase in horsepower over the best archaic 2 or 4 point restrictor plate that is a CFi or carb. Even aftermarket TBis with four injectors can trounce a port Sequential or Bank fire EFi.

This is due to the V8s excellent center of fuel supply; the Port EFi power gains are only from better fuel and spark management. As Ford progressed with EFi

from 1980 to 1985 Speed Density CFi,
to 1985 to 1995 Bank Fire truck port EFi,
to 1986 to 1988 Speed Density Sequential EFi,
and then to 88 to 95 MAF Sequential EFi,

Specific power dropped from the best 4bbl Boss 302 style 780 cfm 4bbls.

The High Out Put Fuel Injection CFi holds its own over port EFi in the 165 to 235 hp area if you use the right parts. The SEFi engines are unable to better the best 4bbĺ engines in the 320 to 430 hp range, despite claimes a GT40 Bunch if Octopus Legs intake can work to 425 hp.

Ford Australia, Jack Roush, Steve Saleen and others with the special 351 versions proved that certain kinds of revamped EFi systems on 342 and 351 SEFi cars really needed a better head and intake runner and often turbo or superchargers to get over the nasty 295 to 375 hp restrictions of factory SEFi.

[xctasy]

You are good, the CFI fuel pump and lines are the same capacity as the SEFI stuff. You'll have to terminate them differently, of course to connect up to the rails.

As always, 4eyedblind gets it.

The 5% missing is what the SEFi is looking for. The 86 to 87 SEFi conversion has various diodes for IAC, and O2 grounding which can cause Things like O2 sensors (which you csn run without!) and some changes in

1.AOD throttle valve, which is now cable,

2.the lines the AIR, EGR routing use.

3.The new computer has to be used, and depending on its type, the 60 pins that feed it will need some auxhilary wiring.

95% of all the wiring and hardlines and AIR and EGR and TAB/TAD sh!+ is mostly similar and already there.

The twin O2 sensor wiring and exhaust pipes the EFi computer is looking for needs to be changed. Problems with getting a SEFi conversion to run are due to the little naunces Ford changed.

The details are important and thats the difference between sucess and failure with the conversion.

[thmpsn70]

im curious here because the 3.8 in my 84 wagon has a tfi dizzy,

[CP GT-350]

so i don't have change fuel pump or tank ??
and i will be using equal length BBK shortys and buying new off road h-pipe so i can run without o2s ?? or is it better to use them ?

[emerygt350]

Pump is fine but you need o2s if you are doing fuel injection. I have two on my setup, one for the computer and one for my afr gauge.

[xctasy]

im curious here because the 3.8 in my 84 wagon has a tfi dizzy,

If its a CFi converted to SEFi, nomatter if its a 3.8, 5.0 Std Output or 5.0 High Output, the TFi module and whole distributor changes to a Dual Synchronised TFi, with a Profiled PIP signal. The distributor has to be changed to an 86 to 91 type with the earlier grey module.

This is where Ford decided to eliminate another part, there is no crank position sensor to sequence the Fuel injection pulses. They made a change to the CFi ignition, as the 5.0 HO CFi has a tip in idle control, and is unique to the Mustang and Capri CFi 5.0 HO.

This is a fourth part which I forgot about. Ford does change stuff like this all the time. It means that mechanics have to be very carefull to note what is different.

The four things are the key things...there are no short cuts except that the 86 to 88 non California Speed Density SEFi can have a lot of the EGR/AIR/O2/TAB/TAD doohickeys eliminated, and the car will still run well.

The parts to mate the non roller cam block and flat tappet cam need to work with the donar Dual Synch TFi.

[emerygt350]

And that is why I won't be 'upgrading' to a sefi. My four barrel intake is already there waiting for a sniper.

[OX1]

On V8s, its been proven that indirect port Sequential EFi (SEFi) yeilds NO increase in horsepower over the best archaic 2 or 4 point restrictor plate that is a CFi or carb. Even aftermarket TBis with four injectors can trounce a port Sequential or Bank fire EFi.

So the 35 ft-lbs torque increase from 85 to 87 was due to the dual exh?
What was the point of the long runners, if they get the same power and torque from CFI.

[xctasy]

True on the 35 lb-ft increase.

Torque is always improved with port injection done right verses a twim point carb or CFi.. On Australians Fords and other Ford sixes worldwide, peak power can go up 19%, but mid range torque, only 9.5%. On V8s a 4 point CFi would equal power increases with port EFi, but mid range torque suffers for sure.

The twin point CFi is not lacking in mid range oomph, despite those numbers. To be clear, your right.

Long brancj Ef

[erratic50]

Torque is king. That's what makes an the 86+ V8 cars so fun to drive. Very few cars match the torque curves of the old 5.0 HO EFI cars. Its not win races power but it is blow the tires off at will while going 20-30 down the street power. It falls on its face up top past 5200 RPM (give or take ..... depending upon a lot of factors) because the stock intakes were extremely restrictive. 2 ports only flowed 110 CFM while the other 6 only flow 130 CFM. Now bear in mind that a most of the heads on the HO motors -- even the "terrible" 86 heads -- flow around 155-160 on the intake side.

Torque -- you bet. You'll get all of it. Horsepower. No. A tubular GT40 or Cobra style intake is optimized to bolt up to the factory heads and get as much from them as possible. You can add GT40 or aftermarket heads and get a bit more but then the intake becomes the restriction point before you even reach 200 CFM/cyl.

Places like BigDogs porting can port them to flow past 320 CFM per intake runner and port BluePrintEngine heads to out flow AFRs as well. Talk about a sleeper combo. Too bad the BPE heads do not have emissions stuff on them.

You can have a crap-ton of fun with a ported stock intake or a FMS intake or even an el-cheapo Typhoon EFI intake (if you can get it to seal, I'm told I was lucky on that one....)

I run a B302 cam in my 86 with a Typhoon. A9L MAF ECU, 65 MM throttle body, BBK equal shorty headers, MAC X-pipe with cats, flowmaster mufflers in a chopped up old MAC 2.5" cat-back. Everything flows like it should. (That B cam can be easily replicated with an HO cam and 1.7:1 rockers BTW) It runs out of injector with 19's at around 6000. A little bump in fuel pressure got it to make good power until just before the rev limiter. I frequently shift it at 6150 with my foot on the floor these days, 1/2 million miles on the mill be damned. Just way too much fun doing it to baby the old thing.

The down side to my setup is you can't just rev the old 5.0 up and drop the clutch and floor it. The RPMs will rapidly climb to the rev limiter if you don't pedal it while letting her rip like that. Sure does do a nice job of boiling the hides though.

Ported stock intake was how I ran mine for decades. Was a lot of fun and a real sleeper. The Typhoon easily added 30-40HP, gave up some "down low" torque while still keeping it reasonable and gained a lot past midrange. Completely different driving experience. Coming out of a corner you can floor it without trashing the tires on the hit. Power comes in as available traction shows up. It sings that V8 song right to the rev limiter too.

I won't go back to anything near stock for intake setup, but I do plan to switch to a BigDogs ported tubular intake and some AFR 195's and an Ed Curtis cam when I put together my Dart 8.2 deck 353 big bore motor for it. That will for sure be a pain to get tuned right but should be a monster when its done.

[4eyedblind]

I just ported the **** out of small lower Exploder to go with my Twisted Wedges I'm installing. Leaving the stock SD cam in with 1.7 rollers, because I'm still speed density. 24 pound injectors going in as well as the free-flowing exhaust already on there. Once I get this done, should be good with both the torque of the 5.0 plus some actual horsepower. I'm tuning with a Crane Intercetor II I had lying on the shelf. The car doesn't have to be fast; I have a 2014 GT and a ZX14R for that. It just needs to be fun, durable and not gaspy.

[erratic50]

Crane Interceptor II....... if I remember right that's an old dog there. Got any pics or a link to it?

99% of the shops around have forgotten entirely how to tune with SD. It caused me to pull my VM1 and go to an A9L a few years back as I started testing mods on my car. Personally I loved the ass-whopping my car usually gave people with "superior" cars and a lengthy list of every bolt-on their momma could afford after her monthly check.

As you know, no replacement for knowing what the hell you are doing with these things, that's for sure.

The way I usually put it to guys that weren't around these things when they were new is if you can't go 25 or so down the street in 1st gear with a stick on a stock geared car and stand on it and proceed to blow the rear tires off .... if it is a stock suspension car then there's something VERY wrong with it.

[OX1]

The way I usually put it to guys that weren't around these things when they were new is if you can't go 25 or so down the street in 1st gear with a stick on a stock geared car and stand on it and proceed to blow the rear tires off .... if it is a stock suspension car then there's something VERY wrong with it.

My Capri did not do that bone stock. But it was with the crappier heads, one of the heaviest foxes all loaded up, only 2.73 gears, etc.

[4eyedblind]

Here ya go...I have the full instruction manual with it, too. It's ridonkulously crude but, will support boost, N2O and *somewhat* bigger injectors.

[erratic50]

My Capri did not do that bone stock. But it was with the crappier heads, one of the heaviest foxes all loaded up, only 2.73 gears, etc.

2.73’s in my 86GT as well as my son’s 86GT convertible. His car has my old VM1 ECU. I’ve done a fair amount to mine over the years but back in the day with mine and with his when he had a 3.35:1 1st gear T5 either would always blow them off

Now we both run 22lb autozone flywheels and T5Z.

Mine has a B302 and a Typhoon along with headers and exhaust and throttle body work etc. A9L MAF but I still run E6 heads. it’s a 35 mph down the street thing with mine as the low end grunt has moved up but it’s instantly on the 6250 rev limiter. Haven’t tried it since I put the MM adjustable lower control arms on — last time I had it out and did some hard launches I spun the tires on the bead and got a flat out of the deal so I’m a little hesitant to do the old boil them routine these days

My sons ragtop with the T5Z and VM1. All stock suspension. He runs 235/60/15’s in back. It will spin pretty hard if you drop the hammer at between 15 and 25 in 1st. More so seems to hook and go at 30-35

His is stock except for my old VM1 ECU, a KN air filter, and 13 degrees of base timing with the spout out.

That ragtop was able to absolutely blow the doors off if a 2001 GT recently. Good running and sounding car, good driver too. The 01 had an edge out of the hole because he didn’t want to boil the clutch like you have to do for a good 60’ with 2.73’s. By top of 1st he was front wheel to back tire, by top of 2nd he was cleanly in front and once it was time for 3rd gear he left that 03 sitting there looking stupid. They shut them down by 100 and there were several lengths on the 01 by then.

not sure of the gears on the 01 but somewhere around 3.27 - 3.55 based upon the shift points he heard.

that car had a ****-ton done to the throttlebody and exhaust too. Didn’t seem to matter one bit.

He’s put an 03 in its place before too. The 01 did a bit better but it still wasn’t even close

people are always really damn surprised when either of these 86’s have anything for a new edge or newer.

I’ve wasted a 13 GT500 with mine a few times though so it’s pretty salty for what it is. Biggest issue with the 13 was driver IMO - the car should be able to beat mine but it just didn’t put the power down.

Fun doing 0-60 pulls with mine. It’s all 1st gear so if you can get out of the hole with out bogging or spinning its party time. Pull to the rev limiter and in 4 seconds and change your rolling 60. I made a video a while back where I bogged it off the line a little and was topped out in 1st at 4.5 seconds and lifted before it was time to go for 3rd just shy of 90 mph

[xctasy]

Reheated old post. Our EECIV took the Crane Interceptor II as well. It was the go to system before EECV and 1996.

Just got the car back in the garage with the new intake manifold but the trani cooler fitting on the radiator is leaking something awful and I think the timing is borked so I have to wait till after thanksgiving to address those two show stoppers. I assume the guys didn't disconnect the tfi when they timed it. It is idling at 300 rpm now. Gonna be hard letting it sit for the next week. Even with the retarded timing I can tell it is breathing differently.

Heads are a long way off. I assume years from now when the engine gets tired (85k on it now) i will go for a long block with a roller in it and be forced to upgrade the stock CFI if I haven't done it by then.

It'll cope with all that real nice.

Based on a formerly pictured website article, I think Fords advantage with Port EFi Speed Density is that its downward compatible with CFi.

I no longer see it on the net, but an EECIV 2.9 was converted back to CFi using a 3.8 V6 throttle body. Somewhere, the pinouts exist to use a SEFI 2.9 computer on a 3.8 CFi throttle body.

I've seen two instances of the the V6 CFi throttle body being transplanted to the 2.8 Ranger engine with rewiring of the four year only V6 Speed Density CFi Computer, which is enough for the 114 hp 2.8 Bronco II /Ranger German import Cologne V6.

http://www.therangerstation.com/tech...Injection.html

https://kevinhikaruevans.wordpress.c...fi-conversion/



If the v8 5.0 SEFI DC Speed Density computer was rewired the same way, the CFi throttle body could be run off it.

I don't have a CFI tear-tag cal code, but here's some EEC-IV strategy files...

http://www.eecanalyzer.net/strategies

Thanx JDA!

the specific biggest problems with it is/are

1. Rarity. The EEC-IV EPROM is difficult to re-write, though it is possible, it is not something that would be useful as a commercial product for any target market. The Crane Interceptor






and RPP Extreme Performance Engine Control "Exreme Edge"



systems were an early kind of managment tool to avoid logging Binary Codes, but were deamed as cheater equipment by the EPA. So the Cost benefit was that 5.0 Port EFI Speed Density was only mapped recently by Sailor Bob for one Catchcode DC, the 86-88 Speed Density Port EFi, not the 84-85 twin point CFi 3.8/5.0 Std Performance /5.0HO. That is rarer than rare, no-one in the world would be silly enough to map out a 120, 150, or 165/180 hop up upgrade to those 231, and 302 CFi engines. Yes, you could make it cope with a different cam, and more injector, but there are four other issues

2. cam swapping to one with more overlap is problematic as the computer has insufficent time based resolution to respond to idle to just off idle MAP pressure changes, so it would need tip in data to cope with this

3. The algorthim is limited. It doesn't know how much air it's moving (it goes lean as a result, and unless you create a new set of values, it won't be able to respond)

4. The stock 2 bar MAP sensor improvements, like a 3 or 4 Bar sensor calibration with extended Hz values cannot be transfered because the stock system isn't calibrated for values out side the working range they devised with the old EECIII. It can't detect MAP sensor boost, even if a higher resolution or boost capable sensor is added.

5. If we refuse to alter the stock tune on a CFi SD system, the Hp gain possible is small, so all the Moats guys say "why bother?"


In terms of artillary to answer those questions, Ford at one time considered a Motorsprt Extreme Edge or Crane Interceptor to control the TFi to tip in or take out spark advance. But only one version of the CFi has that option, the 5.0 HO. For the HO, Ford removed the 3.8 V6 and Standard Performance 5.0 IAC, and added the ignition tip in.

Megasquirt does this, its a fully worked SD system with huge adjustablity.


The Ford EECIV CFi can be hacked, but it needs three some mercanary work-arounds. IAC inclusion, TFi tip in, and some resolution data table work to spike its reaction to idle and part throttle MAP in puts.

[4eyedblind]

The Interceptor 2 has such limited bandwidth. It is so crude and is weak on feedback, being narrow band O2-based and a really small number of cells to modify.

[emerygt350]

Wow, that was a sleeper... Shortly after that post the engine died and I had it completely rebuilt. But of course I kept the cfi...

[xctasy]

Thanks everybody at least i have a place to start now !
I was ripped off by a mechanic who was hired to do the swap that is why it is at the stage its in right now . I guess I am finally done being pissed off about it and am ready to try and finish it . I've owned the car since the early 90s and it was last driven in the mid 2000s .

Ford save money by making a whole car from a hub of very smart technologists. Its only easy to sift the through the changes if you have knowledge of what the year by year changes were. That's a lot of work.

For the AOD CFi, Ford used the best power train engineers, and some very new TFi ignition and EFi parts.

The wiring and 60 pin Electronic Control Module pinouts confuse even the best of us. For Ford, it was easy because they were making them, and they didn't really expect a lot of people to upgrade to Port Fuel Injection.



As for the technolgy they had at there disposal.


From 1995 to 2003, this was it for ALL EECIV'S.

The Interceptor 2 has such limited bandwidth. It is so crude and is weak on feedback, being narrow band O2-based and a really small number of cells to modify.

The key joy with the Interceptor is how it works on pulse-width, and keeps the Keep Alive Memory function active.

Changes made via the Interceptor in Mid-High RPM / Full throttle fuel tables DO stay in effect and are not affected by the EEC-IV. This is because the Mid-High RPM / Full throttle values are not used for emissions testing, so the EEC-IV doesn't look at the 02 sensor readings; therefore, doesn't care if the car runs into either a rich or lean condition and values remain (unchanged by the EEC-IV) as programmed via the Interceptor.

See https://forums.corral.net/threads/cr...-2-225.599953/

All Electronic Control Modules have rules, and none come without default values. Even a MegaSquirt 2E will have a default A9L setting of details you can punch in.


The basic 1986 Speed Density system with its optimized runners is able to work well and show a clean set of heals to any other 5.0.