SEFI Cars Auto To Manual Swap & That Damned O2 Sensor Plug

[ZephyrEFI]

Does your trans have the neutral safety switch on it? If it does, and it's hooked up you could maybe check for continuity between the light blue with yellow wire there and at pin 30 at the ECU.

You can have my '88 EVTM for cost of shipping if you want. I have no need for it now.

[87gtVIC]

I am confused about all of this as well. Certainly a lot to take in and I have been looking through my evtms and wiring schematic books to try and understand. Still hard.

I have an 87 Crown Victoria that has been converted to mass air and is running an a9p. computer. I am planning on 5speed swapping it and know what to do with getting the car to start and getting the cruise to cut off when pushing in the clutch pedal. What I am struggling with is exactly what to do with the secondary switch on the clutch safety switch.

Looking at manuals it appears as if it connects with pin 30 as well as the neutral switch on the physical 5 speed transmission and then pin 46.

I am running the a9p and plan to run it with the 5 speed swap and just am unsure of what to do...if i should do anything with it.

I also have an a9l but then have the same wiring concerns with that.

I have an 89 mustang evtm as well as an 87 wiring schematic (big fold out pages)...still unsure of everything.

[ZephyrEFI]

Well, gentlemen, I had an interesting time under my dash today. The first thing I did was look at my clutch switch, and saw this:



Wait... what? It's already done?! Not exactly. I did a little more poking around and found this:



That's our red with blue Start circuit jumpered harness present in automatic cars. So then why is there already one in my clutch switch?!



This pigtail was in there from back when I bought my pedal box. It was handy because when I needed to run the red with blue circuit from the trans tunnel (where an automatic would interrupt it) to there, I was able to use common male spade connectors and just stick 'em in there. Anyway, pulled that out of the switch itself and plugged the formerly jumpered plug right in. So then what's the deal with the light blue with yellow/black with white plug that's in there? I have no idea! I have no memory of plugging that in, but regardless, there it is. One thing I didn't have to do today.

Did a little more poking around (no easy task, as I have a bunch of my own wiring all over under there), and found this. Light blue with yellow and black with white.



Kind of a mystery what this is. I'd thought maybe it plugs into the manual transmission harness right before it goes through the grommet, but if you look at the connector in the driver's kick panel, it's meant to have the light blue with yellow and black with white with it there. Notice the 2 missing pins on one end are light blue with yellow and black with white on the other.



Under the car, we see that there are only 2 plugs sticking through with the automatic transmission harness.



The one in my hand is the backup lamp plug with the red with blue jumper and 2 other pins for the backup lamps. Its mate is next to it. The other is a 2 pin for the VSS that's blurry in the background. Where is the white with pink wire? I don't know yet. I'm guessing I did some cutting and splicing here, now that I'm thinking about it.

At this point, I pulled out the radio (which I HATE doing because there's so little room for the wiring back there), and poked around to see what I could find. Hello, there's some red with green here. It was Christmas tree'd to the dash brace right in the middle of the car. It's the clutch switch connector for cancelling cruise when you push the clutch in!



Pretty weird it gets stowed so far from where it's supposed to be. Tried it in the switch, and it fits!

I was NOT able to find the single pin connector that splits the light blue with yellow circuit that's supposed to be in this area though. But I did want to quit while I was ahead. Ox, is that actually a 2 pin connector behind the radio for the light blue with yellow and black with white and I just need to find my mystery grey connector's mate?

David, if I were you, I'd run pin 30 to the neutral switches on the trans and clutch in parallel (see Ox's diagram) and see what happens. If the A9P doesn't like it, try the A9L. Does your car have a Mustang harness, or is it the original Vic one?

[NAVYCAT]

Does your trans have the neutral safety switch on it? If it does, and it's hooked up you could maybe check for continuity between the light blue with yellow wire there and at pin 30 at the ECU.

You can have my '88 EVTM for cost of shipping if you want. I have no need for it now.

I have the switch on the clutch pedal, the capri is 5 speed original but the 5 speed trans I got for it does not have the neutral switch on it so I think (but not sure if I looped the wire next to the transmission. but my other question was that I cant do the KOER test unless I hold in the clutch while running should I ground the 30 wire. sure ill take that EVTM tell me the details

[ZephyrEFI]

I just noticed we may have a problem. When I first swapped from auto to manual and continued to run the auto computer, I noticed that on the T-5 harness the red with blue jumper meant to bypass the auto neutral safety switch for the red with blue Start circuit runs from the red with blue wire to a white wire. Mine is faded so it's hard to tell if there's a stripe there or not. I thought it must be the white with pink, so I spliced them together when I swapped in the manual reverse light connector.



Then, I cut these two wires and ran them to the clutch switch so the car would not be able to start when the clutch was not pushed in. It worked with the auto computer, so I didn't see a problem.

BUT, when I installed my Cobra computer, I hadn't yet moved the jumper for pin 30 at the O2 connector to the light blue with yellow, so I think what that means is, I was sending power to pin 30 when I started the car. That's fine for an automatic computer, but in the EVTM, pin 30 for a manual is below the ECU, so I think that means it's supposed to be a ground side switch. And I was sending power to it. I've heard the warnings that you can't just swap in a manual computer and go...

I really hope it's okay. There really won't be a way for me to know until I get the Quarterhorse so I can see what the ECU is seeing at pin 30. If I paid $400 for that computer and then promptly wrecked it, I'm not going to be happy. At that point, the Quarterhorse will have been a waste of money too

Navy, PM me your address, and I'll let you know what it costs.

[87gtVIC]

David, if I were you, I'd run pin 30 to the neutral switches on the trans and clutch in parallel (see Ox's diagram) and see what happens. If the A9P doesn't like it, try the A9L. Does your car have a Mustang harness, or is it the original Vic one?

Original Vic harness in my car..repinned for proper mustang ecu. Quarterhorse for the tune as it is not a stock HO swap I did. A bit more than a stock a9p puter can handle. Needed a tune.

I, like you, just dont want to fry the computer. I do have another known working a9p in my possession but only one a9l. Then swapping between computers I would have to swap the quarterhorse as well and figure that all out with the tune.

This is the one you are suggesting i try?



I see it has no connection between pin 30 and 46.


Reading further in that thread this is likely incorrect for a mass air computer. Seems to call a need for pin 30 connecting to pin 46 via both the switch on the manual trans and within the clutch safety switch. What I am yet to find clear info on is if this matters for manual computer versus auto computer. Forget o2 harness confusion. I would be going directly to the ecu with wires as I dont have the same o2 harness as mustangs do.

[ZephyrEFI]

Original Vic harness in my car..repinned for proper mustang ecu. Quarterhorse for the tune as it is not a stock HO swap I did. A bit more than a stock a9p puter can handle. Needed a tune.

I, like you, just dont want to fry the computer. I do have another known working a9p in my possession but only one a9l. Then swapping between computers I would have to swap the quarterhorse as well and figure that all out with the tune.

This is the one you are suggesting i try?



I see it has no connection between pin 30 and 46.

You know what, now that I'm thinking about it, that might not do you any good if the auto computer expects power and the manual computer expects ground. I might know more if the 1990 EVTM I bought ever shows up. I guess I don't know what I would do...

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[87gtVIC]

You know what, now that I'm thinking about it, that might not do you any good if the auto computer expects power and the manual computer expects ground. I might know more if the 1990 EVTM I bought ever shows up. I guess I don't know what I would do...

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Reading further in that thread suggests some have gotten by with an a9p (auto computer) with a manual trans and just putting pin 30 permanently to ground. So many variations...lol

[OX1]

Nice! Great info!

So, the picture becomes clearer. I think it's pretty clear the O2 wiring DID change around the time of the change to MAF. The O2 8 pin connector below the intake tube didn't appear until then. That is a change, no? Ox, let's look at your pics one by one.

1st pic: So, I'm assuming this is a plug that is unplugged in an auto, but plugged in on a manual? And from there, it goes to the clutch switch, correct?

2nd pic: Nice to see I wasn't wrong about the red with blue circuit. That IS what is shown in my pre-MAF EVTM. It does not address the blue with yellow circuit at all though.

3rd pic: This is the connector near the master cylinder, right?

4th pic: Okay, I'm fairly sure I currently do not have 2 plugs coming through that grommet. Probably because I cut one of them off. Hopefully the LMR harness remedies that.

in your post in the other link, it shows that the wire at pin 30 at the EEC is blue with yellow. That jives with what we know about the wiring change around '89. Mine is purple with yellow, leading to the O2 harness, and yours being light blue with yellow never goes there.

Thanks for the explanation about why they did the O2 sensor thing. Makes sense. I wonder if you could say once I get that LMR transmission harness plus having made the change at the O2 harness that I pretty much now have a manual harness.

So pic one shows a wire not used with an 86 T-5, as it did not have NGS. On 86 Speed density (5 Spd at least), I don't think they did anything with that blue/yellow wire, even though it was all there, apparently.

I re-looked, but could not find the blue/yellow circuit or any mention of an additional switch on clutch pedal in 86 EVTM.
I went and re-read that old thread I had referenced, and it appears the blue/yellow was maintained all the way through
91 with mass air. It's interesting that on the 88 EVTM, it shows that circuit that was there in 86, just not used.
Maybe you could scan those relevant pages from the 88 EVTM for me.

Full 86 wiring diagram here,
http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...79-1986-in-PDF
but I can't make heads or tales of the pin "nomenclatures", They sure don't line up with
actual pin numbers, except maybe grounds (like pin 60).......


Yes, 3rd pic is right near brake booster/MC

I would concentrate on doing whatever you have to, to get the circuit from pin 30 to 46 through
the clutch and NGS. I wouldn't care much what I had to do to wiring and/or what colors it was.
Yes, it would be nice to be exact, but to me, I'd just want the circuit to be right and go through both
of those switches.

It would be nice to know what Ford did with that connection when NGS or clutch sensing switch were open.
I put my theories in that referenced thread, but never did really find an answer.

[OX1]

Looking at manuals it appears as if it connects with pin 30 as well as the neutral switch on the physical 5 speed transmission and then pin 46.

I am running the a9p and plan to run it with the 5 speed swap and just am unsure of what to do...if i should do anything with it.

I also have an a9l but then have the same wiring concerns with that.

I have an 89 mustang evtm as well as an 87 wiring schematic (big fold out pages)...still unsure of everything.

Ultimately a9p needs to connect pin 30 to positive source during start.

a9L need to connect 30 to 46, except when NGS or CES are open. They are in parallel,
so if either one is open, EEC knows you are effectively in nuetral. Even if you just pushed
in clutch, but are still in gear, EEC considers that nuetral.

Or you can wire it permanent from 30 to 46 and forget NGS/CES (which is what early bronco and mustang guys do).

Again, see diagram below

[OX1]

BUT, when I installed my Cobra computer, I hadn't yet moved the jumper for pin 30 at the O2 connector to the light blue with yellow, so I think what that means is, I was sending power to pin 30 when I started the car. That's fine for an automatic computer, but in the EVTM, pin 30 for a manual is below the ECU, so I think that means it's supposed to be a ground side switch. And I was sending power to it. I've heard the warnings that you can't just swap in a manual computer and go...

I really hope it's okay. There really won't be a way for me to know until I get the Quarterhorse so I can see what the ECU is seeing at pin 30. If I paid $400 for that computer and then promptly wrecked it, I'm not going to be happy. At that point, the Quarterhorse will have been a waste of money too

Navy, PM me your address, and I'll let you know what it costs.

I'm not sure the quarterhorse will tell you what is at a certain pin like that.
Maybe it does and I've not found it (or don't know how to use it )

[ZephyrEFI]

I'm not sure the quarterhorse will tell you what is at a certain pin like that.
Maybe it does and I've not found it (or don't know how to use it )

Hmm, I was under the impression you can see inputs on there. I dunno.

Let me get back to you with those pages, I just have limited time right now. I sure appreciate all your help with this!

[87gtVIC]

Ultimately a9p needs to connect pin 30 to positive source during start.

a9L need to connect 30 to 46, except when NGS or CES are open. They are in parallel,
so if either one is open, EEC knows you are effectively in nuetral. Even if you just pushed
in clutch, but are still in gear, EEC considers that nuetral.

Or you can wire it permanent from 30 to 46 and forget NGS/CES (which is what early bronco and mustang guys do).

Again, see diagram below

I appreciate your research through the years and your response to my questions.

In my case of swapping in a t5 and keeping an a9p what are your suggestions? No mustang harness/o2 things to deal with as this is for a 198 Crown victoria that has been swapped to mass air and running the a9p.

Or is this not possible in some manner?

I keep seeing references to permanently connecting pin 30 to 46 but what ECU is in use is not always mentioned.

[ZephyrEFI]

Yeah, I can't make any sense of that '86 diagram either. Even the table of contents. "So and so switch is on C100"... Okay? Where is that?! I did notice there was a "Top Gear Switch" mentioned though, and I believe that was near the same spot as the neutral switch on the '89-93 T-5.









Alright, so see on the EEC page, it shows pin 30 above the module for an automatic white with pink and a "Neutral Drive Switch". It also shows another pin 30 for manual transmission below the module light blue with yellow to a "Neutral Sense Switch". If you look at the T-5 exterior picture, it also calls the switch on there the "Neutral Sensing Switch". Also, there's no mention of the light blue with yellow on the Start/Ignition page or the EEC page with the O2 sensors. How helpful. And finally, the backup light circuit changes to white with purple at the trans connector C107. Ugh.

This is the stuff I'll be very interested to see how it changes in the 1990 EVTM. I'm guessing there will be big differences.

[87gtVIC]

My 89 mustang manual is identical to those 86 schematics aside from one diode in place at pin 30 of the computer on your page 22. What is funny is that there is no diode present in my 89 manual on page 31 though.

[ZephyrEFI]

A diode is a good idea there! Probably only deleted it to save costs.

My pics are from an '88 EVTM in case that wasn't clear.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[87gtVIC]

A diode is a good idea there! Probably only deleted it to save costs.

My pics are from an '88 EVTM in case that wasn't clear.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Ahh I read it as from an 86. My apologies.

Deleting a diode from my page 31 that was present on my page 22 from pin 30 to save cost? I say it is just another inconsistency in the manuals.

Could the difference between your 88 manual (no diode on pin 30 located on page 22 of EVTM) and my 89 manual (diode on pin 30 present on my page 22 of EVTM) be that all mustangs now had MAF sensors and thus mass air computers?

[ZephyrEFI]

Oh, I didn't know your '89 manual had the diode. I just hope my car has it so my computer didn't get fried. I only ran it a few times, but still.

I had a little car time yesterday, so I fought this motherf***er back into place. It's the cruise cancel switch that goes on the quadrant side of the clutch lever.



I'd been dreading doing that because it's one of those no-look, installing-tiny-nuts-with-one-finger, almost-out-of-reach, kind of deals. But it's done now.

I took a look at LMR's video series about auto to manual swaps. It's pretty good. They do mention the jumpered harnesses you need to install on the clutch switches. Unfortunately though, they skim over the other wiring changes you need to make such as the O2 harness jumper and neutral switch on the trans because on theirs they stuck with the auto wiring and ECU. Still, it would've made a big difference if I'd seen these back when I first did my swap.

[OX1]

I appreciate your research through the years and your response to my questions.

In my case of swapping in a t5 and keeping an a9p what are your suggestions? No mustang harness/o2 things to deal with as this is for a 198 Crown victoria that has been swapped to mass air and running the a9p.

Or is this not possible in some manner?

I keep seeing references to permanently connecting pin 30 to 46 but what ECU is in use is not always mentioned.

You still have starting solenoid? For A9P, connect pin 30 to "S" term on it.

[OX1]

Hmm, I was under the impression you can see inputs on there. I dunno.

Let me get back to you with those pages, I just have limited time right now. I sure appreciate all your help with this!

I know you can datalog, but I'm not sure it's like a breakout box where it looks at every pin. This is the only thing I can
find in Tuner, Trans , Scalars.... TRLOAD. If you could datalog it, would it just tell you which of the 7 choices you picked.
At least it does confirm that their could be both clutch and gear switches.......


http://luxjo.supermotors.net/CAPRI/E...315_203805.jpg

and some thing under datalogging, "FLAGS", which I've never used. See FLAG2, B7=NDSFLG


http://luxjo.supermotors.net/CAPRI/E...315_203824.jpg

[ZephyrEFI]

My thought is, if you could pick those neutral switches to datalog and it registers anything at all... 0 or 1, on or off, when you push the clutch in or put the trans in neutral, then the circuit works and will do what it's supposed to. If it's fried, I wouldn't think it would show anything.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[OX1]

Yeah, I can't make any sense of that '86 diagram either. Even the table of contents. "So and so switch is on C100"... Okay? Where is that?! I did notice there was a "Top Gear Switch" mentioned though, and I believe that was near the same spot as the neutral switch on the '89-93 T-5.









Alright, so see on the EEC page, it shows pin 30 above the module for an automatic white with pink and a "Neutral Drive Switch". It also shows another pin 30 for manual transmission below the module light blue with yellow to a "Neutral Sense Switch". If you look at the T-5 exterior picture, it also calls the switch on there the "Neutral Sensing Switch". Also, there's no mention of the light blue with yellow on the Start/Ignition page or the EEC page with the O2 sensors. How helpful. And finally, the backup light circuit changes to white with purple at the trans connector C107. Ugh.

This is the stuff I'll be very interested to see how it changes in the 1990 EVTM. I'm guessing there will be big differences.

Thanks. Does not appear it shows both NGS and clutch switches in paralell though.
And kind of shows SD man trans circuit goes to start solenoid (through slightly different path
than auto). That kind of jives with the 86 EEC schematic (as far as both going to start solenoid),
but is not good news for a speed density harness used with A9L if it "always"
goes back to start solenoid.

I think NGS = Neutral sensing switch



Interesting that it says the clutch safety switch is closed with clutch depressed, always though it was open.
So if the classic bronco/mustang guys wire pin 30 to 46 all the time, that's means the EEC thinks you have clutch depressed
"all the time". They claim no issues, but that's sounds pretty odd to me.

More fuel on the fire. This is the from 1986 Engine Emission/Diagnostic Shop Manual..............
Makes it seem like trans switch was there in 86, which I thought we established it was not.
Does give some incite into what the EEC is looking for, but is different than EEC pinout schematic, which
is from the same manual. UGH!!! I'm starting to question whether even mine is hooked up right now.

http://luxjo.supermotors.net/CAPRI/E...R/nds20001.pdf
http://luxjo.supermotors.net/CAPRI/E...R/NDS10001.pdf
http://luxjo.supermotors.net/CAPRI/E...R/nds30001.pdf
http://luxjo.supermotors.net/CAPRI/E...R/nds40001.pdf

[OX1]

My thought is, if you could pick those neutral switches to datalog and it registers anything at all... 0 or 1, on or off, when you push the clutch in or put the trans in neutral, then the circuit works and will do what it's supposed to. If it's fried, I wouldn't think it would show anything.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

I'm no expert, but I don't see that option in datalogging, except NDSFLAG.
I kind of think that is for an auto though.

[ZephyrEFI]

I'm no expert, but I don't see that option in datalogging, except NDSFLAG.
I kind of think that is for an auto though.

From what I can find, a "flag" is defined as "a yes/no indicator used to represent the current status of something. Flags can also be turned on and off by hardware, in which case the software is used only to read the flag to determine the current condition of the device"

That says to me, if you looked at it on your screen, it would tell you what those switches are seeing.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[ZephyrEFI]

Thanks. Does not appear it shows both NGS and clutch switches in paralell though.
And kind of shows SD man trans circuit goes to start solenoid (through slightly different path
than auto). That kind of jives with the 86 EEC schematic (as far as both going to start solenoid),
but is not good news for a speed density harness used with A9L if it "always"
goes back to start solenoid.

I think NGS = Neutral sensing switch



Interesting that it says the clutch safety switch is closed with clutch depressed, always though it was open.
So if the classic bronco/mustang guys wire pin 30 to 46 all the time, that's means the EEC thinks you have clutch depressed
"all the time". They claim no issues, but that's sounds pretty odd to me.

More fuel on the fire. This is the from 1986 Engine Emission/Diagnostic Shop Manual..............
Makes it seem like trans switch was there in 86, which I thought we established it was not.
Does give some incite into what the EEC is looking for, but is different than EEC pinout schematic, which
is from the same manual. UGH!!! I'm starting to question whether even mine is hooked up right now.

http://luxjo.supermotors.net/CAPRI/E...R/nds20001.pdf
http://luxjo.supermotors.net/CAPRI/E...R/NDS10001.pdf
http://luxjo.supermotors.net/CAPRI/E...R/nds30001.pdf
http://luxjo.supermotors.net/CAPRI/E...R/nds40001.pdf

Oddly enough I'd picked up on that, if you connected them the computer would think you're in neutral all the time. I wondered why you'd want that.

Those pinpoint tests might refer to the NDS on the auto though right?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk