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  1. #1
    FEP Senior Member 85md's Avatar
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    Default 4180 purchase vs aftermarket?

    Short story is the shop redoing my stock Ď85GT lost my 4180 (original). Found this place. http://www.nationalcarburetors.com/l...partnum=nd4383 . legit? Also, found many on 4180s on eBay. Thoughts on aftermarket buying a 4180? Just worried if I buy a used 4180 it may have some badness that canít be fixed.
    Paul
    1985 Mustang GT 5.0 Holley 4180 5 Sp all stock!
    1957 Willy's CJ 5, 283 small block
    2004 F150 4x4 Lariat
    2017 Porsche Macan
    2017 Porsche Macan GTS
    2013 Porsche Panamera GTS

  2. #2
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    The badness is based on the way the carb has its curb idle and air fuel and advance controlled. 93 parts influence that process on an 85 California or High Altitude state 5.0 5 speed.
    Interplaying with that is the
    EGR,
    AIR (TAB/TAD control varied each year) ,
    Hot Idle Compensator Valve,
    Throttle Kicker for Air Con
    Throttle Solenoid Positioner
    its very complicated pulldown choke,
    Its 2 stage power valve
    Especially its four corner idle and cold vaccum advance ramp phased. There are about 93 parts to facilitate 16 core emission control devices.

    The aftermarket raced into supply of five kinds of 4180C based carbs from 1983 to 1996, but Colt Industries hit the wall with the way the EPA and CARB and the IM test verifications Bureau did bussiness. A 4180C, or the many variations of the other 4180C, 4185, or 4195 truck carbs dont have a four corner idle. Replacement OEM's carbs wont be the same due to changes Holley were asked to make each year. The carb csme out OEM in 1979 as a replacement for the troublesome Motorcraft Spreadbore, first in 429 F250/350 trucks, then 460 trucks, then in the HO 351 F trucks, same time as it filtered down into the 83, 84 and 85 HO GTs and RS Capris. It was never the samr spec, with Colt listing six versions in 1989. Some for Chevy trucks, some as replacements for Mustangs, some for F trucks and E vans, some as generic replacements for unkeaded trucks.

    The propane method of air fuel ratio four corner adjustment is a good first start. The leaning off over its lifetime is due to the air bleed and fuel transfer galley crud that always gets stuck in these carbs. The HICV and AC kicker and choke and EGR green port vary, as does the air cleaner hot stove system.

    Nobody follows or understands the way the AIR systems priority circuits work, as they varied, and EGR plates and its cooling system often cloggs up. The campaign of missinfornation due to the need to shorten inventories on the 2 stage power valves makes replacement parts complicated.

    The air bowl vent valve was put in place to prepare the carb for new 1980 Evaporative Emissions rules and you cant easily get replacement parts unless you CNC or 3D print the front and rear float bowls.

    I wouldnt think twice about getting a new old stock carb, but you have to ensure it is the right part nunber and that it has to have the idke mixture plugs reset via the propane method described by JA Cook. That instantly makes it a gross polluter and a fail of the visual inspection if the car is in an IM test state.

    Each HO 4bbl in the Foxes was set up on a bench before install. The true neatness of the 4180C is its 630 cfm actual rating which Ford underplayed. Its air cleaner flows that and more.

    The idle hydrocarbons are so much lower than the 4150 780 cfm used in the 390, 428 and 302 Boss engines...Ford and Holley spent millions making a carb that was better than the Quadrajet, Motorcraft Spreadbores.

    Buy one, but check that its part number is right.

  3. #3
    FEP Senior Member 85md's Avatar
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    What do you mean by right lady number?? I thought a 4180 for an ‘85 was a 4180
    1985 Mustang GT 5.0 Holley 4180 5 Sp all stock!
    1957 Willy's CJ 5, 283 small block
    2004 F150 4x4 Lariat
    2017 Porsche Macan
    2017 Porsche Macan GTS
    2013 Porsche Panamera GTS

  4. #4
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 85md View Post
    What do you mean by right lady number?? I thought a 4180 for an Ď85 was a 4180
    Nope, a 4180C, The truck and E van ones differ, with no four corner idle. There are 4185 and 4195 with or without governors for trucks

    E5ZE-9510-GA for the 4180C.

    The Holley list number is #50265 for 1985's.

    Quote Originally Posted by JACook View Post
    The idle mixture can be tricky, particularly on engines that can draw from both sides, and having four
    adjustments just adds to the confusion. It's easy to get yourself lost, and have a carb that idles fairly
    well despite a pretty large imbalance between the individual bores. Where the imbalance shows up
    most is with off-idle driveability. Temporarily using a gasket without the crossover slots helps some,
    but you still have the primary and secondary bores on each side connected together in the intake.

    One of the things I do when I'm rebuilding a carb, is to make sure the throttle blades all fit the bores
    properly. With them all the way closed, you want to see the same amount of daylight in the same
    position on all four bores when you hold the baseplate up to the light. Then operate the throttles and
    check again that they consistently return. These carbs are usually pretty good if no one has ever taken
    the baseplate apart. But most guys that take them apart don't spend the time to get them back where
    they need to be. It can be a tedious process.

    When you adjust the secondary stop screw, put a little downward pressure on the throttle shaft to take
    up the slop, because that's how it will be loaded when the engine is running.

    I would suggest doing some reading about the propane enrichment method of setting the idle mixture.
    It takes a bit of trial and error to get to where you can consistently interpret what's going on, especially
    using a generic propane torch as the source as I did when I first started doing it this way, but it really
    lets you know that all four barrels are contributing equally when you're done.

    The way I do it is to introduce a very low flow of propane directly into each carb bore and take note of
    how the engine reacts, both in idle speed, and manifold vacuum. You want to use only enough flow to
    create a reaction. You're looking for the engine to just pick up a very small amount, and for it to be the
    same no matter which bore you point the hose into.
    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...ying-The-4180c

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...nfo-for-a-4160

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...-dual-stage-PV

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...ng-in-my-4180C

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...ring-Block-Mod

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...hoke-questions

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...180-4180C-4160

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...0c-Replacement

  5. #5
    FEP Super Member bwguardian's Avatar
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    Yes, the Mustang version is a 4180c and was produced from 1983 to 1985 with the latter the better. There are other 4180 units that came on trucks you need to research and be careful of. Also, the choke horn will have a date code which should correlate back to the production date of the car.
    HAD
    '82 GT monochromatic (red)...black cloth

    HAVE
    '85 GT vert two tone (white on charcoal)...white leather
    '00 F350 two tone (white on silver)...gray cloth
    '00 Excursion Limited two tone (white on tan)...tan leather...wifes ride
    '08 Taurus Limited ice blue...tan leather...daughter ride
    '08 Edge Limited white sand tri-coat metallic...tan leather...other daughters ride

  6. #6
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Uncle Tony's Garage notes on swap carbs like the Edlebrock 1406

    https://youtu.be/9kiVAzf1vCU

    See below.

  7. #7
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Another part of the puzzle. Mike is an asset to all of us here.

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...-Holley-4180-s


    Read all 5 pages.


    Check out his in progress website, https://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/


    I endorse free thought. Think wrongly if you must, but at all times...think for yourself.

    As you may know, were all different about what we see as important in carbs.

    What the 1979-1988 4-bbl 4180/4190/4195 C, E, or EG carb is.....its a white box carb under six different part numbers that works in a 302, 350, 351, 366, 370, 429, 454 or 460, car, truck, 4X4 or 8500 pound plus truck, and Holley was forced to Do S|-|!+t Like Dat to Just win a Freekin Auto maker Customer.


    As stated before, Holley were working to Chevrolet and FoMoCo's brief.

    Read through the modifications you can do. You have to decide what to leave in, what to leave out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Walking-Tall View Post
    This will be ongoing, as I discover and reveal all of the inner workings of these... as well as what is totally jacked up about them in my opinion, inconsistent, unnecessary in my opinion, modifiable to be much better functioning in my opinion, etc... and thorough means completely opening things up, pulling back all the veils of previously secret/hidden calibration details and the sizes of everything, and what all those sizes of everything means, what can and should be changed, or not changed, what was previously thought not possible to do or revert back to traditional modular Holley function, parts-wise, but is/are entirely possible with some simple, minor modifications, etc.

    The patient currently on deck is an original 1985 Mustang Holley/Motorcraft four barrel that I own, that I acquired on part trade for '72 R-code ( 4-speed, 3.91 rear gears ) maCh1 Mustang 351C HO's Motorcraft 4300C (previously also thought too troublesome and not worth bothering with, and runs like a champion now) carburetor and distributor work, that has a busted base plate, but most all else is there and fully examine-able...









    Some of the calibration restrictions and bleeds, and where they are located:

    IFR's (idle feed restrictions)...




    The following are actually up-channel restrictions, since idle/transition air:fuel travels up these idle wells at this point within the metering block...




    The following are final restrictions (at the bottom surface of the main body) to, the tailoring of exactly how much primary idle/transition air:fuel is allowed to be delivered to the primary transfer slots and the primary idle mixture screws... transfer slot restrictions in traditional Holley carburetors are not usually necessary to dial back transition fueling with stock or mild camshaft-ed engines... no worries, this is only one of a number of unnecessary calibration design aspects I have found within these carburetors original designed and meant for very stock/mild 302 engines...





    For now, in closing, I'll just show my findings so far, and expand upon and discuss further later...






    Any questions, comments, additions, please fire away...

    Mike

  8. #8

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    To OP, have you considered the Summit Racing M2008 carb?

  9. #9
    FEP Super Member bwguardian's Avatar
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    I would stick with the 4180c as they have annular primary boosters.
    HAD
    '82 GT monochromatic (red)...black cloth

    HAVE
    '85 GT vert two tone (white on charcoal)...white leather
    '00 F350 two tone (white on silver)...gray cloth
    '00 Excursion Limited two tone (white on tan)...tan leather...wifes ride
    '08 Taurus Limited ice blue...tan leather...daughter ride
    '08 Edge Limited white sand tri-coat metallic...tan leather...other daughters ride

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by bwguardian View Post
    I would stick with the 4180c as they have annular primary boosters.
    So does the Summit carb. It is basically a modern version of the Autolite 4100 / Holley 4010.

  11. #11
    FEP Senior Member 854vragtop's Avatar
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    I've been running the Summit M2008 carb since early 2012 on my 85 GT and couldn't be happier with it. It is hands down the best carb I've ever run on my '85. I've run two different 4180c carbs as well as an aftermarket Holley 1850. NONE have ever had the cold weather drivability (no hesitation, no stumbling) that the Summit carb has. It's made with some genuine Holley internal parts. The Holley quick change vacuum secondary spring kit bolts right on. Jet changes are super easy with no fuel spillage, comes with glass float bowl sight windows, primary AND secondary annular booster venturis, dual feed hard line, older style Holley orange umbrella style accelerator pump check valve. It only has idle mixture screws on the primaries instead of the 4 corner idle on the 4180c (if that's a concern). I've noticed better fuel mileage and crisper throttle response. I am no stranger to Hollies and know how to adjust them, but could never completely get rid of the hesitation when getting back on the throttle with the 4180C's. Different accelerator pump cams, different positions, adjusting out all the slop in the linkage...it would always be slightly there. The cold weather drivability after start up was terrible on both 4180C's. I've owned my '85 since 1990 it's never performed better than with the Summit carb.


    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-M08600VS


    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...=1#post1429573
    '85 Mustang convertible GT, 5 speed, 4V
    Stock bottom end, Comp Cams XE264HR-14, GT-40P heads w/ Alex's springs, Weiand 8124 Street Warrior
    8.8 Turbo Coupe rear end w/ 3.55 gears, '94/'95 Cobra brakes, '85 Town Car M/C, '93 Cobra booster, MM Panhard bar.

    '68 Mercury Cougar, w/ '88 5.0L, 4V
    My photo website:
    http://www.twilightphoto.com/

  12. #12
    FEP Super Member bwguardian's Avatar
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    I still say the issue with the 4180c is the ethanol fuel. I took the stock 85 carb on my car and rebuilt it. I bumped up the primary jet size from the stock 62 to a 65 and it has no stumble tipping into it and basically runs like a fuel injected car...except when you feel the secondaries ease in. Not sure about cold weather operation as this is a weekend toy.
    HAD
    '82 GT monochromatic (red)...black cloth

    HAVE
    '85 GT vert two tone (white on charcoal)...white leather
    '00 F350 two tone (white on silver)...gray cloth
    '00 Excursion Limited two tone (white on tan)...tan leather...wifes ride
    '08 Taurus Limited ice blue...tan leather...daughter ride
    '08 Edge Limited white sand tri-coat metallic...tan leather...other daughters ride

  13. #13
    FEP Senior Member 854vragtop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bwguardian View Post
    I still say the issue with the 4180c is the ethanol fuel. I took the stock 85 carb on my car and rebuilt it. I bumped up the primary jet size from the stock 62 to a 65 and it has no stumble tipping into it and basically runs like a fuel injected car...except when you feel the secondaries ease in. Not sure about cold weather operation as this is a weekend toy.
    I also had to up size the primary jets to 64's to get rid of a lean stumble during steady state cruising with both the 4180C's and the 1850. At steady throttle cruising at 65 mph it would just start missing when I had the stock 62 size primary jets in there.
    '85 Mustang convertible GT, 5 speed, 4V
    Stock bottom end, Comp Cams XE264HR-14, GT-40P heads w/ Alex's springs, Weiand 8124 Street Warrior
    8.8 Turbo Coupe rear end w/ 3.55 gears, '94/'95 Cobra brakes, '85 Town Car M/C, '93 Cobra booster, MM Panhard bar.

    '68 Mercury Cougar, w/ '88 5.0L, 4V
    My photo website:
    http://www.twilightphoto.com/

  14. #14

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    Oxygenated fuels certainly didn't do the Mustang 4180C any favors, but... The driveability issues often credited
    against these carburetors, often has less to do with the carburetor, and more to do with other aspects of engine
    tuning and emissions controls.

    Short answer, if you ditched all the "smog stuff" I think you made an unwise decision, but going forward your
    best choice is probably not the original 4180C, unless you are willing and able to properly modify it to suit the
    working conditions specific to your engine.

    The real key to all of this stuff is to think in terms of systems, rather than individual parts. For example, if you
    deleted the thermal vacuum switches on the back of the intake manifold, be aware that will cause driveability
    issues, particularly while the engine is warming up.

    Ford used a rather ingenious trick to reduce warm-up emissions while retaining driveability. The distributor
    vacuum advance is fed manifold vacuum until the coolant is up to temperature, then switches over to normal
    ported vacuum.

    Likewise, the stock vacuum advance unit was adjusted to work with the rest of the engine calibration, so if that
    is failing, or was maladjusted, you might expect the off-idle stumble everyone talks about. While you can cover
    that up with more fuel, it is not the only way.

    I have been very happy with the 4180C ever since I put a complete '85 HO engine in our dearly departed '78
    Fairmont wagon back around Oct 1987. That carb was dead nuts reliable for over 100K miles without anything
    being done to it. Never had the off-idle stumble everyone said I should have, nor was the engine ever cranky
    in what passes for cold weather in SoCal. I used all stock Ford/Motorcraft parts for that swap, save for the dual
    cat-back exhaust system.

    My '85 GT hatch also still has the 4180C, and the only issues I have with that carb is because the car often sits
    for extended periods, and the accelerator pump transfer tube seals don't like oxygenated fuel. If I fire it up the
    day before I want to drive it, then shut it down and let it sit, it's fine the next day. The only mods I've done on
    this carb are a 121-131 squirter, and #63 main jets to compensate for the oxygenated fuel.

    Most other 4180Cs I've resurrected had horribly maladjusted choke systems. This is not surprising, given that
    all 3 years of Mustang 4180C had different choke systems, and only the '83 version is similar to a "normal"
    Holley. If you have one that is hard to start when cold, and/or runs badly until it warms up, it's very likely an
    adjustment issue. When properly adjusted, you should only need one pump of the right pedal to set the choke,
    then keep your foot off while you twist the key.
    Last edited by JACook; 03-14-2020 at 07:58 PM.
    Cheers,
    Jeff Cook

    '85 GT Hatch, 5-speed T-Top, Eibachs, Konis, & ARE 5-Spokes ... '85 GT Vert, CFI/AOD, all factory...
    '79 Fairmont StaWag, 5.0, 62K original miles ... '04 Azure Blue 40th Anny Mach 1, 37K original miles...
    2012 F150 S-Crew 4x4 5.0 "Blue Coyote"... 65 coupe, 289 auto, Pony interior ... '67 coupe 6-cyl 4-speed ...
    '68 Vert, Mexican block 307 4-speed... '71 Datsun 510 ...
    And a 1-of-328 Deep Blue Pearl 2003 Marauder 4.6 DOHC, J-Mod, 4.10s and Lidio tune

  15. #15
    FEP Senior Member 85md's Avatar
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    Jeff,
    June is all stock with no emission mods. I would prefer the original 4180 C. My only hesitation is rebuilding it myself. I have only done it a couple times, and that was many years ago
    1985 Mustang GT 5.0 Holley 4180 5 Sp all stock!
    1957 Willy's CJ 5, 283 small block
    2004 F150 4x4 Lariat
    2017 Porsche Macan
    2017 Porsche Macan GTS
    2013 Porsche Panamera GTS

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by 85md View Post
    Jeff,
    June is all stock with no emission mods. I would prefer the original 4180 C. My only hesitation is rebuilding it myself. I have only done it a couple times, and that was many years ago
    Sucks that a shop would "lose" an original carb...

    If you can find a relatively unmolested original carb, the rebuild is fairly straightforward, using the Holley
    3-1346 kit. I just wish that kit would come with GFLT accelerator pump transfer tube O-rings...

    I have bought a few of these carbs over the years to use as cores, and apart from making sure you get
    the correct carb for your car. The correct carb will have "E5ZE-9510-GA" stamped into the choke horn,
    with "LIST-50265" stamped below it, and a 3-digit date code stamped below that.

    I look at the surface finish for signs that the castings were sandblasted (drives me nutz that anyone would
    do that to a carburetor, ever). I won't touch one that has been. Also look at the baseplate, to see how
    badly they may have butchered it to get the idle mix plugs out. There should be a mixture screw for each
    throttle bore (or a steel plug, which would have a screw behind it). Some truck baseplates (mostly the
    heavy truck versions) only have idle mix screws for the primary bores. I verify whether it has a Mustang
    throttle shaft. The WOT switch tab at the bottom of the throttle arm is unique to Mustang and Capri carbs,
    and those carbs do not have the hole drilled in the baseplate for an idle speed screw.

    If a carb makes it past those checks, I start looking at details to make sure the carb wasn't frankensteined
    together out of a mix of Mustang and non-Mustang parts. I look at the stamped numbers on the primary
    metering block, as well as whether the baseplate was drilled for the WOT power valve cavity vent through
    the throttle shaft. Only the truck carbs would have that hole drilled.

    The '85 (and late '84) carbs have a diaphragm-style choke pull-off, with no air tube provision, so if there is
    a filtered air tube sticking out of the carb body above the choke assembly, it's not an '85 main body. Likewise,
    if there is a tube sticking up out of the main body just left of the choke horn, that would identify a truck body.
    (Sometimes the numbers on the front of the choke horn are... obscured...)

    I look at the idle speed solepot assembly, to make sure it's the proper Mustang/Capri-only part, with the
    WOT switch, and that it's in good condition. If it's in unusable condition, or missing, that seriously affects
    what I would be willing to pay for the carb. That assembly can be expensive. '84 and '85 use Motorcraft
    CD-78 (E4PZ-9S520-A), while '83 uses CD-73 (E3PZ-9S520-A). The only difference between the two is
    the stroke of the dashpot rod is a bit longer on the '83 version. A washer can be added to the '83 version
    to shorten the dashpot stroke.

    If you do find a carb with a useable solepot on it, I would make sure the seller removes it and wraps it
    separately, when shipping the carb. These carbs can really get banged around in shipping if people don't
    pack them really well, and the dashpot will be the first casualty.
    Last edited by JACook; 03-15-2020 at 12:08 AM.
    Cheers,
    Jeff Cook

    '85 GT Hatch, 5-speed T-Top, Eibachs, Konis, & ARE 5-Spokes ... '85 GT Vert, CFI/AOD, all factory...
    '79 Fairmont StaWag, 5.0, 62K original miles ... '04 Azure Blue 40th Anny Mach 1, 37K original miles...
    2012 F150 S-Crew 4x4 5.0 "Blue Coyote"... 65 coupe, 289 auto, Pony interior ... '67 coupe 6-cyl 4-speed ...
    '68 Vert, Mexican block 307 4-speed... '71 Datsun 510 ...
    And a 1-of-328 Deep Blue Pearl 2003 Marauder 4.6 DOHC, J-Mod, 4.10s and Lidio tune

  17. #17
    FEP Senior Member 85md's Avatar
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    I was wanting to stay all stock....
    1985 Mustang GT 5.0 Holley 4180 5 Sp all stock!
    1957 Willy's CJ 5, 283 small block
    2004 F150 4x4 Lariat
    2017 Porsche Macan
    2017 Porsche Macan GTS
    2013 Porsche Panamera GTS

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by 85md View Post
    I was wanting to stay all stock....
    Nothing at all wrong with that. Rock on.
    Cheers,
    Jeff Cook

    '85 GT Hatch, 5-speed T-Top, Eibachs, Konis, & ARE 5-Spokes ... '85 GT Vert, CFI/AOD, all factory...
    '79 Fairmont StaWag, 5.0, 62K original miles ... '04 Azure Blue 40th Anny Mach 1, 37K original miles...
    2012 F150 S-Crew 4x4 5.0 "Blue Coyote"... 65 coupe, 289 auto, Pony interior ... '67 coupe 6-cyl 4-speed ...
    '68 Vert, Mexican block 307 4-speed... '71 Datsun 510 ...
    And a 1-of-328 Deep Blue Pearl 2003 Marauder 4.6 DOHC, J-Mod, 4.10s and Lidio tune

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