problem getting 84 5.0 to correct RPM

[xctasy]

So you think the E2AE-9E957-BB will work OK with an 84 Mustang 5.0 CFI?

Since I have an old one, i'm gonna open it up and wee what makes it work. maybe I can learn how to repair it.

The dampening will be different, but you have everything else sorted nicely. I'd try it.

The 1978-1985 Variable Venturi 2-bbl carbs of the feedback types used a very reliable feedback EEC whatever loop to control curb idle speed via a stepper motor (electric, IIRC, DC) , and in order to do that there had to be a way for the revs to drop and settle on over-run before it would cycle. TPS setting was used to control its idle as well, but it was a three way feedback algorithm.

Ford decided to eliminate some of that extra stuff with the transition to CFi on the 5.0. They are very similar otherwise. Not exactly the same, similar...

The bleed down will be different, but not significantly so to cause a problem verses one that is damaged.

Your getting close to have it running perfectly again during the cold start and warm up and cool down cycle. Don't forget, the goal is just to have the stuff working together well enough. If a part is broken, a not so broken, not exactly standard part should be significantly better.

[fgross2006]

OK so I just bought the E2AE-9E957-BB from the ebay seller.

I see 2 other dashpots that are older part numbers but look identical.

what do you think of these? will they work on a fox?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Carter-202-....c100667.m2042

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Carter-213-....c100290.m3507


Also, I started the car this morning. Cold but not freezing by NY standards. The car started up at around 2050 RPMs. I had set it to 2100 a few days back and it dropped a few in the interim, but it went through the motions just right. The choke pulldown kicked it to around 1800 RPMs. I let it idle another 30-40 seconds and thumped the gas and it dropped to 1000 in park. Perfect I think.

I took it out for a long run and it ran great. Although twice today while idling at a red light the car hiccuped, Like a shudder then went back to a smooth idle. Out of the 3 hours I drove around that happened twice and passed after a few seconds.

[xctasy]

E0SE-9E957-AA
E0AE-9E957-CA
E2SE-9E957-AB <---
E2AE-9E957-BB

The difference is the SE is the spare part, the AE is the OEM part.

I trust that Ford really did have the 2150, 2700/7200 and CFi as planned swaps on anything 5.0, and probably 2.8, the withdrawn 3.3 2-bbl, the 3.8, 4.2 and 5.8 as well, and that the VOTM is pretty much the same for all the VV's and CFi's.

The revised number is able to operate in the same OEM car.

Somewhere, the stock bleed-down numbers will exist, but verses a worn out one that doesn't work. A near match should help a heck of a lot.

Your results might vary, but I think you'll get a great result. There are always kick in ignition and transient miss-fires as the choke, ignition, EGR, and TAB/TAD and the VOTM do there stuff.

[fgross2006]

E0SE-9E957-AA
E0AE-9E957-CA
E2SE-9E957-AB <---
E2AE-9E957-BB

The difference is the SE is the spare part, the AE is the OEM part.

I trust that Ford really did have the 2150, 2700/7200 and CFi as planned swaps on anything 5.0, and probably 2.8, the withdrawn 3.3 2-bbl, the 3.8, 4.2 and 5.8 as well, and that the VOTM is pretty much the same for all the VV's and CFi's.

The revised number is able to operate in the same OEM car.

Somewhere, the stock bleed-down numbers will exist, but verses a worn out one that doesn't work. A near match should help a heck of a lot.

Your results might vary, but I think you'll get a great result. There are always kick in ignition and transient miss-fires as the choke, ignition, EGR, and TAB/TAD and the VOTM do there stuff.

So I got the E2AE-9E957-BB in the mail today. it appears brand new, no original motorcraft box though.

First thing I did was take it to the garage and test it with a vacuum pump. This part holds vacuum with no leakdown at all.

However, I notice that applying vacuum does not push the bump stop out. On my old one I can see it thump with each pump of the vac pump. It just wont hold vacuum at all.

I suppose I will have to install this thing and set the curb idle and visually see how it runs. The variance in the part numbers seems to be insignificant so this theoretically should work.

The E2 means the part was made in 82
The A means generic Ford or Galaxy
The V is for Lincoln Continental 61-81

So whether its a E2VE or an E2AE both third digits represent a fairly large car.

I see that the old part leaks its vacuum through the shaft that rides in and out when vac is applied. the diaphragm inside is intact because when I blow into it, it holds the air. I'm betting theres an O ring that seals the shaft when it moves. Doesnt make sense for the metal rod to seal air tight riding back and forth in a plastic tube. I'm gonna open one up and see whats in there.

[emerygt350]

"set the curb idle"?

[fgross2006]

"set the curb idle"?

Post #3

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...n-84-CFI-setup

[fgross2006]

So I installed the E2AE-9E957-BB and it worked nice. The vacuum does move the throttle-stop when its in the car. It's not really noticible when applying vacuum to the part outside the car.

So now I have 2 spares. funny that the original part from the car looks cleaner than the replacement part I put in like 4 years ago.

Anyway, I determined that when these things are new they hold vacuum. they wear down with age and use. When they do fail, they leak vacuum from the throttle stop shaft. I still think theres an o-ring in there. I'm gonna pop one open to see where to vacuum failure occurs. I'll post pics when I have em.

[emerygt350]

The votm should not be exerting any pressure on the throttle. If it needs to than your engine still has issues and your idle will be unpredictable. Glad to hear the new one is working!

[fgross2006]

The votm should not be exerting any pressure on the throttle. If it needs to than your engine still has issues and your idle will be unpredictable. Glad to hear the new one is working!

I beg to differ. The very purpose of the VOTM is to bump up the idle a notch when the ECM switched on the solenoid that controls vacuum to it.

[emerygt350]

Only when you turn the air conditioning on. Its only duties are that, kicking it off high idle, and cushioning throttle return.

[emerygt350]

Oh, and i believe it is supposed to bump it up when it appears the engine will stall but that never seems to be enough to save it.

[emerygt350]

I took it out today and was able to record the votm saving the idle. The car got confused and went into "warm mode" before it was ready so the votm had to keep bumping it.

In the video I am not touching the gas at all. The car is in park. https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=...&v=qi5QHuP2RbI

[emerygt350]

Here is why I think there is confusion about what that votm does. As xctasy and jacook have mentioned before, other cfi engines had funky electric motor operated throttle manipulators. The HO simply uses spark advance after the choke circuit has done it's job. This is from a Haynes manual I have for fox body mustangs and capris. Obviously the author simply recycled the text from another cfi, probably the 3.8.

[fgross2006]

Only when you turn the air conditioning on. Its only duties are that, kicking it off high idle, and cushioning throttle return.

The VOTM and the choke pulldown are tee'd off the same solenoid, both getting vacuum at the same time. When the car is warming up the VOTM is engaged simultaneously with the choke pulldown.

And mine is doing exactly what it's supposed to be doing. Issue fixed, problem solved.

Next projects;
replacing the door weather stripping,
pulling out the interior to install under carpet sound proofing
cleaning and undercoating the under carriage.

[emerygt350]

as it should be, but your idle setting procedure had you using the votm to set warm idle and that is not what it is for. Timing sets the idle when the engine is warm, so adjusting the idle using the votm is not appropriate. Cold idle settings are through the screws for the initial and after the kick (second cog of the choke). The votm should be set as described in other threads so that the ac kick up is appropriate and the throttle buffer works as intended. Not to change idle speed.

[fgross2006]

as it should be, but your idle setting procedure had you using the votm to set warm idle and that is not what it is for. Timing sets the idle when the engine is warm, so adjusting the idle using the votm is not appropriate. Cold idle settings are through the screws for the initial and after the kick (second cog of the choke). The votm should be set as described in other threads so that the ac kick up is appropriate and the throttle buffer works as intended. Not to change idle speed.

I dont know where you got that idea from. I set the cold idle with the vacuum lines removed and plugged. I set the curb idle with the vacuum lines connected but I run the engine at 2000 rpm for 60 seconds to induce the ECM to disengage the VOTM's vacuum.

I follow the procedures listed on her by Jeff, which are the same as listed by Ford on their documentation as follows from Ford Forums.


Curb Idle Reset

This procedure applies to all models that use either Cfi or Efi. All 86-91 models with Efi have a non adjustable curb idle yet this procedure will set the throttle body stop screw to the factory position for the ECU to use as a reference for Curb Idle.
Onto the reset
1. Put the transmission in either Nuetral or Park and set the Parking Brake
2. Start and allow the motor to warm up to normal operating temperature
3. Connect the Tachometer per manufacturers' instructions
4. Place the Air Conditioning in the OFF position
5. Turn the vehicle OFF then RESTART and increase engine speed to 2000rpms for all 83-85 models with CFI or 1800rpms for all 86-91 models with EFI for 1 minute. Then release the throttle and allow the idle speed to stabilize for 15 seconds.
6. Check if the curb idle speed was obtained by checking the tachometer with the engine at idle speed.
7. If Curb Idle is too low turn the ignition OFF, turn the Saddle Bracket Adjusting Screw (83-85 CFI) or Throttle Body Adjustment Screw (86-91) one full rotation CLOCKWISE
8. Recheck Curb Idle. Adjust if necessary.

[emerygt350]

Yes I have seen that elsewhere too. In my experience, if your idle isn't right after step 6 (I have found this whole procedure unnecessary on my 84) you have other problems. If my engine is running right that votm position at warm idle (within reason) doesn't really matter. I have never disconnected hoses etc to set idle and my engine has been completely torn down and rebuilt.

[fgross2006]

Yes I have seen that elsewhere too. In my experience, if your idle isn't right after step 6 (I have found this whole procedure unnecessary on my 84) you have other problems. If my engine is running right that votm position at warm idle (within reason) doesn't really matter. I have never disconnected hoses etc to set idle and my engine has been completely torn down and rebuilt.

when setting the cold Idle I need a minute or so to get it set. I don't want the choke pull down to engage and interfere with my setup. I also pull the choke thermostat voltage so the choke doesn't start moving while I'm trying to get my rpm's set.

As for the reason to plug all the vacuum lines when setting the cold idle, I just followed the procedure recommended by Ford. I assume there must be a reason why they say to do that.

Anyway, I took my 84 out for a long run last Saturday and it ran great. At least 3 hours just cruising around. Stopping for a 7-11 break, restarting, back on the road, and after multiple starts and stops she ran like a Mercedes. I'm very happy. Its been a good thread. I'm sure you saw theres another guy posting with CFI headaches. Hopefully he can glean some knowledge from this forum. I came here in 2014 with zero understanding of the CFI and through the generosity of this forums members I now know more than most mechanics know about the Ford CFI. cant tell you how many times my mechanic urged me to pull the electronics and go to a Holley/Edlebrock set up.I'm glad I took the time to learn about this cars set up. It was worth it.

even back in the 80's when i had a 67 Camaro I hated it when i put the edlebrock and holley on it.

Fast Idle Reset
1. Place the transmission in Neutral or Park
2. Start the engine and bring the engine to normal operating temperature
3. Disconnect the vacuum hose at the EGR Valve and plug it. Disconnect and plug the the canister purge vacuum line
4. Disconnect and plug the vacuum hose at the fast idle pulldown motor. Turn the ignition off
5. Set the fast idle lever on the high step of the fast idle cam
6. With a tachometer, check and adjust the fast idle rpm between 20 and 60 seconds after restarting the engine. If this time limit is exceeded repeat steps 4 and 5
7. Remove the plug from the EGR hose and reconnect it. Remove the plug from the fast idle pulldown motor vacuum hose and reconnect it
8. Reconnect the canister purge line

[emerygt350]

I never get down to the city but at some point we are going to have to meet up and compare notes. I race with the finger lakes scca and the Glen region scca. If you ever feel like a little autocross in upstate let me know. CAMT is quite a bit of fun up here.

[fgross2006]

E0SE-9E957-AA
E0AE-9E957-CA
E2SE-9E957-AB <---
E2AE-9E957-BB

The difference is the SE is the spare part, the AE is the OEM part.

I trust that Ford really did have the 2150, 2700/7200 and CFi as planned swaps on anything 5.0, and probably 2.8, the withdrawn 3.3 2-bbl, the 3.8, 4.2 and 5.8 as well, and that the VOTM is pretty much the same for all the VV's and CFi's.

The revised number is able to operate in the same OEM car.

Somewhere, the stock bleed-down numbers will exist, but verses a worn out one that doesn't work. A near match should help a heck of a lot.

Your results might vary, but I think you'll get a great result. There are always kick in ignition and transient miss-fires as the choke, ignition, EGR, and TAB/TAD and the VOTM do there stuff.

A follow up to this thread regarding the VOTM in the CFI set up, I installed the E2AE-9E957-BB that I bought last year on ebay. This summer I started getting horrible performance issues. Stuttering while cruising, idle dropping to almost stalled at red lights. I tried resetting the curb idle a few times but it would not hold. A day latter it would go back to stuttering while cruising and stalling condition. The E2AE-9E957-BB still holds vacuum and the vac hose is brand new, no leaks.

Luckily I did find a E2SE-9E957-AB on ebay shortly after I installed the E2AE-9E957-BB so I kept it as a backup. Well last week I decided to swap the VOTM's as a prelude to changing sensors again. I was about to replace the TPS and coolant temp sensor but after installing the E2SE-9E957-AB and setting the idle the car ran perfect.

All I can think of is that these VOTM's do vary from car to car even though they all mount exactly the same way. Theres nothing wrong with the E2AE-9E957-BB. It was brand new, holds vacuum so the only variable is how much the plunger moves based on the amount of vacuum applied and perhaps the internal diaphragms are not all the same.

For now my car is running great. But i dread the inevitable VOTM failure that will happen later on down the road. Nobody makes a replacement for these and they are not serviceable. I pried a dead one apart to see how it works and the diaphragm is crimped around the open end. No way to fabricate a way to reseal them once they leak.

Just wanted to put that out there. The part number is important, Replacing with the exact one is important.

[xctasy]

The part can be replicated. Any damper can. It can be done by using the nearest interchange, and then applying a bleed down rate which you can do with an IAC. It can be replaced electronically.

Step on 1978 was the VV 2700 and then the later VV 7200 was controlled by a one way VOTM, with the other positive control by a DC motor on a one way loop.

They didn't have reversible Direct Current motors in 1978, so Ford just used the bleed down rate just like they did with the pull-over choke.


An ISC with an Arduino Uno (open-source microcontroller board based on the Microchip ATmega328P microcontroller) will do the same job. Just have to program it to operate the same way.

You can the the Central Fuel Injection Essex 90 3.8liter V6 ISC, which is a DC forward and reversible motor control. That is the way forward, your definite solution fellows.

In application, the 3.8 system has a lot of faults, but the idea is 100% sound.




Here's where it goes wrong.

coffeejava's matters:- http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...-86-CFI-Issues

The 3.8 liter ISC motor has an Idle Tracking Switch. This is a little contact switch in the tip of the pintle that extends and retracts. It opens and closes as the tip contacts the throttle lever. The wires for this are the yellow /red and the black /white. If you disconnect the wire connector and put your ohm meter on these wires on the COMPONENT side, by pushing on the tip of the ISC motor, you should see your meter read OL (open) to 0.1 or 0.2 ohms(continuity). The 3.8 Liter ECM has code 58 reserved from this. They go bad often, but the basic part on the VV7200 and 3.8 CFi can be replaced by anything that has a duty cycle Pulse Width Modulation control. Its childs play to work with Arduino.

See free1986's problems with it on http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...C-IV-Code-Help






or the VV7200, the Ford device is a a one way DC servo, not a uni directional stepper motor.The VOTM pulls out in one direction, and the DC motor drives the idle in the other direction, with a similar wiring protocol.

VV2700 early, had a Throttle Position Sensor on the other side of the carb, not to be confused wit the VV7200's and other carbs Throttle Positioner Solenoid. TSP.



VV7200, the choke pulldown worked against the D9AZ 9S553-A TSP solenoid, a VOTM in drag, to avoid running a DC motor.

This is variously called a CM, which is the decel throttle control modulator.




Anyway, Ford scoped out Five (5!) different ways of controlling Feedback carb and Central Injection curb idle,

1. first the DC motor with vac control on the EECII CA Fairmont VV2700 and Lincoln Versailles, depending on control
2. then back tracked to the 1980 Mustang Turbo and Feedback 6200 Weber/VV7200 style TSP on some
3. the 5.0 HO CFi EECIV has throttle tip in only, with the Pulldown choke working in opposition to the VOTM
4. then the ISC on the 3.8 CFi, without any Pulldown choke.
5. with the IAC (Idle air control actuator) being the final solution for Port EFi.

For CFi, the base idle can be buffered by a feedback stepper motor (ISC), solution 4. That is a work-alike VOTM.


Once you get a handle on the histrionics, things get a lot simpler.

For some fun and games, check this out. You CFi guys are lucky to have it sooo easy! Which Variable Venturi 2-bbl part would you like today, Sirs?


https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...questions.html








The Variable Venturi carbs with Throttle Solenoid Positioner had a common aftermarket replacement Holley Economaster 350 and 500 cfm 2-bbl carb.


The TSP remained



.

[emerygt350]

From your post it appears the problem was more than just idle, 'stuttering while cruising'. That rich condition I had was doing that and the idle collapse. Although I feel the ECT was my problem I am not entirely confident it isn't a general case of old wires. Whenever we work on the top of the engine we are pushing and pulling at all kinds of harnesses.

[fgross2006]

From your post it appears the problem was more than just idle, 'stuttering while cruising'. That rich condition I had was doing that and the idle collapse. Although I feel the ECT was my problem I am not entirely confident it isn't a general case of old wires. Whenever we work on the top of the engine we are pushing and pulling at all kinds of harnesses.

I thought it was more than just idle too. I know that stuttering is a rich condition, I've experienced it before. I swapped the VOTM just to see what, if any effect putting to exact part number back in and it solved the performance issue. I drove the car from Freeport to Copaigue, that's about 15 miles, to drop the car at the body shop. Ironically, I fist noticed the cruising and stalling issue on a drive to the same body shop to follow my wife when she dropped her car for bodywork and paint.

I guess I'll know when I pick up the Mustang when its done being touched up. But the day I drove it there it ran picture perfect. And I know from experience with this car, when there's a problem it doesn't just go away, it would have continued bucking.

[emerygt350]

I had a slight recurrence two days ago but nothing since. I also noticed this last batch of badness started at the dyno when they started playing with my timing (164hp, 220 torque at the rear wheels). The tfi harness wraps around all those others on top of the engine....

[emerygt350]

I drove it deep into PA yesterday (literally, the PA grand canyon) and had 0 issues over almost 200 miles.