5.0L EFI 8cyl 165hp HO CAM?

[Foureyedjoe]

Hi Everyone,

I just bought a 85 mustang GT that was a AOD. it has the 5.0L EFI 8cyl 165hp HO that was offered with the AOD but has since had the upper and lower intake swapped out with a 86 GT. What Im trying to find out is what kind of cam my engine has. Is it a flat tappet in this engine or did it have the same as the manual GT with the carbed HO.

Any help would be appreciated

thanks in advance

[FoxChassis]

That engine originally had the flat-tappet cam from the 1984 and earlier model, Ford engineering number D3OE-6250-AA.

FYI: If your car originally had tubular 'headers', instead of cast iron exhaust manifolds, and dual mufflers and tailpipes, it has the 180 HP version of the 1985 CFI engine. The 165 HP version, which was carried over from the 1984 model year, had cast manifolds and single muffler and tailpipe with twin polished tips exiting on the driver side and was only installed in the beginning of the 1985 model year (through 11/19/84).

[Foureyedjoe]

That engine originally had the flat-tappet cam from the 1984 and earlier model, Ford engineering number D3OE-6250-AA.

FYI: If your car originally had tubular 'headers', instead of cast iron exhaust manifolds, and dual mufflers and tailpipes, it has the 180 HP version of the 1985 CFI engine. The 165 HP version, which was carried over from the 1984 model year, had cast manifolds and single muffler and tailpipe with twin polished tips exiting on the driver side and was only installed in the beginning of the 1985 model year (through 11/19/84).

Thanks for the info, I might need to contact the previous owner to find out what kind of exhaust it had previously. right now it has headers with a x-pipe and dual exhaust. I know that when using the Vin decoder it says that i have the "M" engine. I beleive your correct that it is the 175hp HO motor. Does that motor have the flat tappet aswell or is it the roller cam?

Thanks

[KevinK]

The 85 blocks were roller capable but did not come with a roller cam.

I believe you can also tell if it is a 180 hp motor by the fuel injector size. I believe they had the largest fuel injector available.

[FoxChassis]

If it's an 85 it didn't have the 175 HP engine. That was 1983 and 1984 only.

The 1985 engines were...
165 HP (CFI, before 11/19/84)
180 HP (CFI, 11/19/84 and later)
210 HP (4V)

All were VIN code "M". Regardless of which version the CFI engine was in 1985 it had a flat-tappet cam. The 4V version in 1985 was the first, and only one that year, to have a roller-tappet cam.

[Foureyedjoe]

Ill check my build date on my drivers door to see what engine I have. Hopefully it is the 180hp version, just to clarify if it is the 180hp version it should be a flat tappet cam but the block is roller capable if you swap out everything?

Thanks again for all the info

[FoxChassis]

I don't know if some or all of the 1985 CFI blocks were roller. You'd have to check the casting number on the block.

[MERCURY MOTORSPORT]

Just to clarify things a little: there were only two versions of 1985 5.0L engines available for Mustang and Capri


Each type of engine was paired with a corresponding transmission type

ROLLER ENGINE - 210 HP @ 4400 RPM
The T5OD 5-speed manual transmission cars got the 4V HO carbureted roller (cam/lifter) engine. The cam was made from billet steel and distributor gear was made from hardened steel. These engines came equipped with a Duraspark II ignition/distributor system and the TSAD system computer

NON-ROLLER ENGINE - 180 HP @ 4200 RPM
The AOD 4-speed automatic transmission cars got the CFI HO injected non-roller (cam/lifter) engine. The cam was made from forged steel and the distributor gear from cast iron. These engines came equipped with the EEC-IV electronic ignition distributor and computer.

The books say both engines came with the same tubular exhaust manifolds.

As a interesting side note: the 1985 Ford book that I'm looking at states that Lincoln Continental & Mark VII CFI cars received roller-engines. But with Mustang & Capri - only the 4V engines received roller cams/lifters


So - you could easily tell a roller engine from a non-roller engine by the type of transmission that originally came with the car - and by the type of distributor/ignition system that was factory installed. Those would be the two main indicators anyway.


ENGINE ID #
With all of the mixing matching swapping that goes on with these cars - it never hurts to check the engine ID # and not fully trust the former owner(s) memory or honesty. It will only mainly confirm that it's the correct year engine that belongs in the car, but that's important too.

The engine # is stamped (small but readable) into the topside rear of the block - it's right behind the intake, where the bellhousing mates to the engine, a little towards the driver's side. Alternatively - there's a second set of larger engine ID #'s cast into the block, right behind the starter - you'd just have to drop the starter to see them.

It's an interesting observation often made that some 1985 cars are actually "early 1985 models" (made in early 1984) and some cars are "later 1985 models" (made in late 1984). So it's true - a good verification would really be to confirm the block casting/stamping numbers, to see if you ended up with the 1984 CFI engine rated 165 HP @ 3800 RPM. The true 1985 engine blocks (PART # E5AE-6010-HA) were redesigned from the 1983-1984 versions (PART # E2AE-6010-KA) to accomodate roller cams/lifters etc - so in theory you could very well retrofit roller components into a 1985 non-roller block because that 1985 block was designed to be roller component compatible.


GET SOME GOOD BOOKS!
If you're really planning on keeping this car, it'd be great to invest in some good reference books too. Not just the usual Chilton's Haynes Clymer manuals but some of the factory manuals/catalogs & aftermarket data/specifications books etc - sometimes they can be worth their weight in gold

[FoxChassis]

Here is an 'early' 1985 LX 5.0L 2-door sedan (P26M) with the 165 HP version of the CFI engine. Notice the twin exhaust tips on the driver side? So this car had cast iron manifolds, single muffler, and single tailpipe.

[FoxChassis]

From the 12/84 revision of the 1985 Mustang showroom sales brochure.

[FoxChassis]

Here is same page from the earlier version (08/84) of that brochure.

[MERCURY MOTORSPORT]

To the OP, I guess it's redundant but you're definitely going to need to confirm the block part/engineering # and the associated date code to see what year block you have.


THREE VERSIONS OF 1985 5.0L

Wow so there was indeed a 3rd version of the 1985 5.0L V8 - so (in my post above) I was incorrect to exclude the earliest available 165-HP CFI 5.0L and that's not surprising that Ford used essentially "leftover" 1984 engines for earliest 1985 CFI models.

But I'm a dedicated 1985-only owner and am highly interested in this specific model year and the differences. I do absolutely love factory emphemera literature etc and the above brochures were a very good read to have this morning with my coffee. I haven't looked at my '85 Capri & '85 ASC McLaren brochures for quite a few years and I'm not even sure where they are right now, but I'll be interested to check them out.

I did read this today about the 165-HP vs 180-HP engines :
"Sometime after Job One 1985, Mustangs equipped with the CFI/AOD powertrain were upgraded with a low-restriction air cleaner and a low-restriction dual-muffler system. In this form, the engine was uprated to 180 horsepower."


HOW MANY VERSIONS OF BROCHURES WERE THERE? EARLY BROCHURES vs LATE BROCHURES? EXPORT BROCHURES?
I WONDER WHAT ENGINE/TRANS COMBINATIONS EXPORT MODELS USED?

So - I also didn't know there were actually at least two versions of the 1985 brochures - maybe even more. If I find where I stashed mine, I'll have to check which version(s) of my 1985 Capri brochures I own. I wonder what the Mustangs & Capri Export models (for Canada Mexico Europe Asia Australia etc) versions offered for engine/transmission/drivetrain combination options ??


ERRORS & OMISSIONS IN BOOKS MANUALS BROCHURES

An interesting "word or two" (LOL) about books & brochures etc - as much as I love books brochures manuals catalogs etc (and I recommended them to the OP) - the problem with some of this beloved literature (both factory & aftermarket) is conflicting information & discrepancies & outright omissions & references to things that never were. FoxChassis - I'm sure you're correct about the 3x 1985 engine options (besides the fact that the two brochures corroborate what you said).

Just a observation (with brochures especially) - it's funny (not really though) that I've seen, and also own, what some collectors would call "premature-release brochures" (I'm sure there's also other descriptive terms for them) that highlight various (obviously planned) features & options - that in reality - were changed/altered/discontinued after printing and ultimately never even offered by the manufacturer during actual production. Collectors (mainly) love to own these much-too-early-release brochures that promote features & options "that never were".

In regards to omitted information - here's a good example from last night (when I posted above) : I cited Ford's Training Publication "1985 Engine, Emission and Related Systems - Car" (Ford technician training manual 2107-009 July 1984) and it only highlights two versions of the engine offered for 1985 (180-HP CFI non-roller - and 210-HP 4V roller). No mention whatsoever of a lower 165 HP CFI non-roller engine for the 1985 model year. You'd think they would state (and advise their technicians-in-training) that early-edition 1985 CFI/AOD-equipped models carried (essentially "leftover") 1984 engines & related systems. Also - that booklet goes into great detail about the new TSAD (Two Speed Accessory Drive) system for 1985 5.0 4V - which from what I also read, never really materialized!

But anway, obviously (as shown in the brochures kindly provided by FoxChassis) for a short time early-on, Ford did offer that 165-HP version. All I can say is God bless the Ford-Lincoln-Mercury mechanics & autobody & parts department personnel who had to keep up with the constant changes & revisions & TSB recalls - they certainly didn't have the benefit of overview & hindsight.

In the illustrated parts catalog -
I do see three different exhaust systems offered in 1985 (obviously for three 5.0L engine versions) :

a Y-pipe single outlet system for AOD w/twin chrome-plated tips
a Y-pipe dual outlet system for AOD with aluminized tips
a Y-pipe dual outlet system for 5-speed with stainless tips




So if I understand this all correctly, very basically :

• Early 5.0L CFI non-roller engine w/AOD transmission - rated at 165 HP @ 3800 RPM - (basically a leftover 1984 CFI engine) that had a forged steel cam, cast iron distributor gear, EEC-IV ignition, cast iron exhaust manifolds with single exhaust & muffler and a twin-tip tailpipe.

• Later 5.0L CFI non-roller engine w/AOD transmission - rated at 180 HP @ 4200 RPM - that had a forged steel cam, cast iron distributor gear, EEC-IV ignition, tubular stainless exhaust manifolds and a Y-pipe exhaust system utilizing a smaller-diameter inlet/outlet engine pipe

• Later 5.0L 4V roller engine w/manual transmission - rated at 210 HP @ 4400 RPM - that had a billet steel cam, hardened steel distributor gear, Duraspark II ignition, tubular stainless exhaust manifolds and a Y-pipe exhaust system utilizing a larger-diameter inlet/outlet engine pipe

CFI INJECTOR SIZE

I wonder if it's true (as was mentioned earlier in the thread) that the 165-HP engine also had smalller injectors in the CFI, compared to larger injectors in the later 180-HP CFI ? Sounds plausible enough .



**********************************************


Ok to the OP - good luck and hope you have the higher rated engine that you hope for and hope you might've found some of the 1985 Mustang/Capri options confusing . . er . . interesting

[Foureyedjoe]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for all the info, ill look at the block model number but as to the build date of my car it says on the door it is built 08/85 so i would hope it has the roller capable block but to confirm ill check the block ID.

Ill look into some more books and reference guides as i want to keep this car for a very long time.

Thanks again lots of good info on this page

[FoxChassis]

The 180 HP version of the CFI engine essentially had the same exhaust system as the 210 HP 4V engine. That included dual mufflers and dual tailpipes.

08/85 CFI was definitely the 180 HP version.

[MERCURY MOTORSPORT]

1985 Mustang Capri 5.0L Exhaust System Diagrams

It looks like the 1985 4V had larger equal size 2.5" inlet & 2.5" outlet

It looks like both 1985 CFI versions had a smaller 2" inlet & larger 2.5" outlet

[MERCURY MOTORSPORT]

Thanks for all the info, ill look at the block model number but as to the build date of my car it says on the door it is built 08/85 so i would hope it has the roller capable block but to confirm ill check the block ID

While many get what they expected (and paid for) when they buy a Fox - many also don't and discover unwelcome surprises. Probably nothing to worry about in your case, but I tend to be skeptical overall and would definitely not trust going by the door decal or VIN plate or what someone told me at the time of sale etc.

While there's always a good chance it's an original engine block etc - given the years/decades and former owner(s) and the long history & pastime of engine replacement swaps with Fox Body hobby cars - there's also a reasonable chance it could have a Jasper-type replacement engine or another year 5.0L from a salvage yard or even a 5.0L truck engine etc. I've pretty much seen it all when it comes to what people put in them, so I tend to be skeptical about what former owners tell me etc. There's nothing like comparing physical casting/stamping numbers to confirm what exactly you have.

As said previously above, I do hope it works out for you and you're happy with the results you find. If it's an actual later 1985 CFI non-roller engine, then you should be able to upgrade and retrofit roller components into it successfully and have the outcome you're looking for. Hey let everyone know how you make out with the engine ID #'s

[FoxChassis]

1985 Mustang Capri 5.0L Exhaust System Diagrams

It looks like the 1985 4V had larger equal size 2.5" inlet & 2.5" outlet

It looks like both 1985 CFI versions had a smaller 2" inlet & larger 2.5" outlet

I have that book as well but I did not look at it. I did not realize the 4V/T-5 exhaust had a larger inlet than the CFI/AOD.

Take note that the 210 HP 4V/T-5 has a unique Y-pipe with a 'pre-catalyst' on the passenger side that neither version of the CFI/AOD Y-pipe has.

[Foureyedjoe]

Thanks again for all the info. Ill try to get a look at the block id tonight and update everyone as to what i find

[MERCURY MOTORSPORT]

Thanks again for all the info. Ill try to get a look at the block id tonight and update everyone as to what i find

Looking at your posts/photos in the other thread, it looks like you're progressing nicely with the car. The car looks like a keeper - keep us posted what you find and/or plan to do

I have that book as well but I did not look at it. I did not realize the 4V/T-5 exhaust had a larger inlet than the CFI/AOD.

Take note that the 210 HP 4V/T-5 has a unique Y-pipe with a 'pre-catalyst' on the passenger side that neither version of the CFI/AOD Y-pipe has.

Yes - that's from a (great) 2-book set - "Late Model Mustang Illustrated Parts Catalog" (the 2nd book was a matching "Late Model Master Decoder Guide").

Now out of general interest for "good read" book suggestions to the OP and anyone else reading, and also to be completely transparent about the above scanned images of those 3 exhaust system diagrams - for both expediency & usefullness, I superimposed (onto the diagrams) the exhaust pipe inlet/outlet dimension data from another book (1st edition - revised) DriveLines "1979-1993 V8 Mustang Specifications Guide" which was a precursor for the later larger expanded Bentley "The Official Ford Mustang 5.0 Technical Reference & Performance Handbook" (which I DON'T yet own!).

To be absolutely sure of accuracy of those exhaust sizes, sometime in the next few days I'll try to confirm the differing pipe dimensions in (yet another great book set) my "1985 Ford Passenger Car Parts Catalog - Text & Illustrations" (2-book master parts catalog set which is an excellent resource). Though the dimension data is most likely accurate in the revised "Specifications Guide" - I find anything different/conflicting in the "Text & Illustrations books", I'll be sure to post what I find. I'm not bragging whatsoever but will say between my 3x Capri(s) and my 1977 Ford 150 Flareside 4wd - I have a little over $1000 in books manuals guides brochures etc. FoxChassis I'm nearly certain you have as many or more pieces of literature in your own collection archives (especially given your focus is a larger 1979-1986 year range rather than mine of primarily 1985) but I'm a kindred spirit (apprentice-level though lol) with information and historical preservation.

Hey yes I too did also notice that unique "pre-catalyst" in the one exhaust diagram for 4V Capri/Mustang. I'll have to go out to the garage and take a look at my own original exhaust to see what that piece is marked/stamped. When I bought my 85 Motorsport Capri, it had some aftermarket speedparts installed by the seller - but I also spent an additional $1500 on buying back the original exhaust system (in great condition) & cam intake carb etc. I bought as many original parts that the seller (and from the previous original owner before him too) had taken off the car - so at least I have most of the original factory Ford & ASC pieces.

I also found interesting the Specifications Guide states that the CFI exhaust came with aluminized low-carbon steel tailpipes and the 4V exhaust came with stainless steel tailpipes - another difference between the two that I hadn't considered or noticed before

[Foureyedjoe]

Hi All,

This weekend I continued with the removal of my Intake to change gaskets, and to upgrade to my GT40 intake. I just wanted to update everyone in this discussion regarding if my block was a roller block or not. I took a pic of the valley and found that unfortunately it is not.

Ill continue to run my current set up but down the road ill likely do a engine swap to something that has a little more potential. Possibly even larger, ill decide when the time comes i guess.

Anyway thanks for all the help and info with this post

[dynodon64]

That is a roller cam block, with flat tappet lifters. You can tell by the flat machining of the top of the lifter bores. A non roller block is not machined flat. Also by the RT mark is the boss that would need to be tapped for the lifter spider retainer bolt. So yes it is a roller cam capable block.

[emerygt350]

But don't fear the flat tappet ...

[Foureyedjoe]

That is a roller cam block, with flat tappet lifters. You can tell by the flat machining of the top of the lifter bores. A non roller block is not machined flat. Also by the RT mark is the boss that would need to be tapped for the lifter spider retainer bolt. So yes it is a roller cam capable block.

Oh that's good news. So if I decide to rebuild the engine I'll just have to drill and tap the block.

[liv2roc]

if you go to a roller cam make sure you get a distributor with a steel gear.

[dynodon64]

I believe you can just run a tap in the existing hole. The cam bearings need to be out in those two spots.