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  1. #1

    Default Noobie swap time

    Hello everyone. I am new to this whole V8 thing people keep telling me about. I have wanted a project car for awhile and I just purchased an 83 Notchback, as it is really the only mustang I could see myself having fun with. It's rough, but there's definitely an awesome car hidden away. So, it has been V8 swapped in the past, has 81k miles, a C4 transmission, and that's about all I know drivetrain wise. The motor on it is basically trash, sat outside for 7 years with no heads so it's FAIRLY locked up. Since I am new to this whole thing (my first american car) I wanted some opinions. I want to be carbed just to keep it simple. Messing with direct injection has made me really hate computers and it has everything set up for carb. My thoughts are to go with a weiand stealth intake, holley 650cfm carb, gt40 heads, b303 or e303 cam, 1 5/8 long tube headers, and 2 1/2 exhaust. As far as the block goes, i'm not sure if I should try to find a stock one, see if this mega locked up one can be used for anything, or find an explorer motor, or find a 351w. Planning on 3.55 gears and possibly keeping this c4 or t5 swapping. I want this to be done cheaply so I might stick with the c4. I want this mostly as something to just work on, but I'm not a racer; I am a tinkerer. I want this to be a fun weekend/street car. Looking for something like 250-300rwhp. Budget wise, as long as it doesn't cost me More tham say $3000 I'd be ok with it. What all your thoughts?

  2. #2
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    First Welcome to FEP! Hope you enjoy the Forums.

    Not sure what your actual skill level is at this point, so the first question if you will excuse me . . . Do you have the skills, tools, shop, etc. to assemble an engine properly? If the answer is Yes, then definitely proceed. If the answer is No, then I would recommend considering one of the many long block engines available from many different sources, Ford, DSS, CHP, and others. Might look like more $$ to begin with, but in the long run, I doubt it will cost you more and it should save you a ton of time and headaches. Always remember Speed costs Money! How fast do you want to go?! Also you can have Good, Fast, and Cheap . . . . But you can only pick TWO!

    If you proceed with your engine build, overall your plan looks pretty good. Personally I would consider other cam options than the Alphabet cams since they are old technology and there are much better options today. Also remember that the roller block was not installed in the Mustang until 1985, so if your block is original it will be a flat tappet cam. You can convert to roller, but that will require other parts and pieces. You can hit your HP goal with a flat tappet, but a roller will generally be a bit milder idle for the same power in my experience.

    A 351W is always an option, but consider all the extra parts required since the intake, oil pan, headers, flywheel, balancer, and some other parts are different than the 302/5.0 pieces. If buying everything from the start not a big deal, but if you plan on using some current parts they will not work with a 351W.

    Next question is do you want to tinker to get the car up and running or do you want to get the car running and then tinker with it. That will ultimately decided the best course of action. A running/driving car is always more fun to play with than the one that sits in the garage for years on end and never sees the pavement. I can attest to that personally.

    Last, is your skill level in regards to tuning, especially a carburetor. They are simple devices and easy to work on, but getting one tuned properly can be tough with limited experience. Personally I would seriously consider going with Fitech EFI, Sniper EFI or one of the other throttle body/carb like EFI systems if possible. The easy of install like most carburetors, but generally better all around drive-ability for most of us that don't tune cars daily. A bit more expensive to start, but again if you have to buy a New carburetor its not as huge a jump to the Fitech EFI. Just something to consider. Nothing wrong with a carburetor and they can make a ton of power. Give us some feedback and I am sure you will get plenty of suggestions and advice here on FEP!
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Stalled RestoModification
    1984 SVO Still Waiting Restoration
    1986 GT Under going Wide Body Conversion Currently

    Current Capris:
    1981 Capri Roller
    1981 Capri Black Magic Roller Basket Case
    1982 Capri RS 5.0/4spd T-top Full Restoration Stalled in TX
    1984 Capri RS T-top Roller
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts

  3. #3

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    I have not assembled a complete engine, however that is about all I haven't done. I've worked on cars for awhile but never anything this intensive. But that is why I got this so I can figure it out. I've got the time and the space and the will. I've also never had a carb, but I am confident I can learn enough to get a good runner. I do not have $1700 for a sniper EFI lol. I have a friend giving me a holley 4 barrel 650CFM that came off of his old motor. I would have to rebuild it. I don't have much experience in tuning, but I haven't found anything yet I was unable to learn. What cam would you recommend for this combo? Getting the car running was my first goal, then fixing it up to make it nice and clean.

  4. #4
    FEP Power Member gmatt's Avatar
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    Explorer long block is a good option if you can find one with relatively low miles or a 5.0 HO with low miles. I used a 5.0 out of Mk VII and it runs great. C4 paired with 3.55s would be fun, but you might want to avoid highway driving with that combo. I've got a C4 and 3.27s and I avoid the highway. You would need a higher stall converter if you step up the cam, but I would do that anyway even with a stock cam. Speaking of which, the stock HO cam is a pretty good piece for a fun street car. I recommended the used engines because of the budget aspect. Little stuff adds up quickly.

  5. #5

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    I have been convinced on EFI so now I have to rethink lol.

  6. #6
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    A free Holley is hard to beat. The Fitech EFI is generally around $750 +/- https://www.summitracing.com/parts/f...hoCLUIQAvD_BwE so definitely more money, plus you will need an electric fuel pump and some other misc parts, but again if you are starting from scratch or need to replace then the cost difference diminishes.

    As stated the C4 will limit you on Highway RPM with any performance gear ratio, but if its just an around time cruiser no big deal. You can always swap to an AOD or T5 later if you need/want to. If the C4 is functional and operational right now, I would go with it due to budget constraints. a T5 swap can add up very quickly if you have to buy all the misc parts and pieces.

    Nothing wrong with building your first engine. Just keep in mind that to do it correctly you may spend a good portion of your budget on engine tools for the exercise. If you don't plan on building another engine that is wasted $$ IMHO. That is where a good running used engine or a new long block may be the better bang for the buck. Best idea is to try and put together a list of everything you need/want and look at your options. It doesn't take long to spend several thousands dollars on rebuilding an engine just in parts alone. Add machine shop work and any additional tools and quickly you have exceeded your budget.

    You don't state your location, so I have no idea if you are down south, in the rust belt, or in the desert. The engine being open for 7 years is not a good thing, but then again the damage may not be too bad and it may be rebuildable. Pictures and more information would be helpful. If you can reuse many of your current parts that may help with the budget costs, but again if you can find a good used engine for the right price that may still be the better option. The 87-93 engines are good donors and often even with high mileage can be overhauled with new rings, bearings, seals and still be a great driver. The Explorer 5.0 is another great option and was used up to 97 so that can be another source as mentioned. The valve springs on the heads are generally the weak spot, but the heads are GT40 or GT40P depending on the year model and are much better than any Fox heads from 79-93. Also don't forget the 94/95 SN95 Mustangs as a source too.

    Camshaft choice should be based upon what your actual engine combo is and what you need/want it to do. Your induction, exhaust, compression, driving type, etc. all need to be considered in order to choose the most appropriate camshaft. As mentioned the stock Fox Mustang roller cam is a pretty decent street camshaft all around, so again depending on budget and what you finally go with, it might still be a good idea.
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Stalled RestoModification
    1984 SVO Still Waiting Restoration
    1986 GT Under going Wide Body Conversion Currently

    Current Capris:
    1981 Capri Roller
    1981 Capri Black Magic Roller Basket Case
    1982 Capri RS 5.0/4spd T-top Full Restoration Stalled in TX
    1984 Capri RS T-top Roller
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts

  7. #7

    Default

    Will I was thinking that if I really like this car when it's all said and done I might shell out for a t56. I am a fan of 6 speeds and that extra gear would be nice so I could highway it. My buddies said they would get me an explorer motor if I go efi, for some reason they really REALLY hate the idea of me putting a carb in there. So I can't really beat that. I can alway change it up if I don't like something. So now it's looking like efi explorer motor, c4 if its good, torque converter of some kind, 3.55 rear, maybe I'll do an 8.8 swap, not sure on that. Should I just get a 255lhp pump so it'll always be good for any power gains I want in the future? 30lph Injectors?

  8. #8

    Default

    I got a donor car, which meant I had every clip, wire, hose, clamp and bolt I needed. Saved tons this way. I made the oem EFI work in my swap, because it was there, free and I'm familiar with it's performance and capabilities.

    I got lucky in that there was a rebuilt engine in the donor, UD pullies, ele fan, full lowering spring and shock kit, poly bushings throughout and a Hurst shifter. There were more in mods on the donor than i paid for the whole car.

    The car is not fast, given its stock engine and 2.73 gears but, it is fun, light and is endlessly modifiable....and it's a 4 eye notch in a rare colour.

    Oh and, I put the whole car together, teardown to first fire, in a couple of months the previous summer so, no ten-year project here. It's licensed, insured and I drive it whenever I feel like it.
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  9. #9
    FEP Power Member gmatt's Avatar
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    I used the C4 that was behind the I6 that was in the car previously. Swapped to a V8 bell and Hughes 2500 stall converter. I like it and no problems so far. I do wish for an OD gear though. I am running a Fitech 'Go Street' efi system on a Weiand Xcelerator manifold. Runs really well. To run efi, you'll need to modify your fuel tank for an in-tank pump or just use a frame mount inline pump and figure a way for a return line. Installing efi on a car that didn't have it can get expensive quickly, but if done right you won't regret it.

  10. #10

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    All in, total cost for my build was $4650 and, I'm in Canada so, everything is very expensive here.....

  11. #11
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TDub View Post
    Will I was thinking that if I really like this car when it's all said and done I might shell out for a t56. I am a fan of 6 speeds and that extra gear would be nice so I could highway it. My buddies said they would get me an explorer motor if I go efi, for some reason they really REALLY hate the idea of me putting a carb in there. So I can't really beat that. I can alway change it up if I don't like something. So now it's looking like efi explorer motor, c4 if its good, torque converter of some kind, 3.55 rear, maybe I'll do an 8.8 swap, not sure on that. Should I just get a 255lhp pump so it'll always be good for any power gains I want in the future? 30lph Injectors?
    Keep in mind the Explorer motor is not a direct bolt in for the Mustang. There are several parts that need to be swapped to work in the Fox. Also keep in mind that you will most likely need a stand alone EFI harness or at least 87-93 setup and preferably the 89-93 Mass Air setup. IMHO for an EFI swap into a 4Eye car the Fitech, Sniper setup is much easier and simpler. Also much easier to tune compared to tuning the stock Ford SEFI system. You can swap in the later model EFI fuel tank to get the electronic fuel pump setup for either the Ford system or any aftermarket setup. A 255lph pump is fine for most applications, but you may not need that much unless you plan on more than 300 HP at a later date. If you go with the Ford SEFI 30lb injectors are a bit big for your current power desires and might cause a rich condition. 24lb injectors are good to around 325 HP and 30lb injectors are good to around 400 HP in N/A engines that is.

    T56 is a great transmission, but a TON of money in most cases to install. If you can afford it and just like the idea that's cool. In my experience unless you just have to have that 6th gear double overdrive a well built T5 or even a Tremec TKO, etc. will do everything you need and save you $$. The stock T5 is still one of the best shifting manuals out there. Much easier to find and fit into a Mustang, especially on a budget. If you like running more rear gear, then definitely consider going with the 2.95 or lower numerical gear for 1st in a T5 or any other. The stock 3.35 first gear and anything over a 3.27 makes first gear virtually a granny gear and useless in most cases. I have 3.55 gears in my Pace Car with a T5 and I don't even use 1st gear for anything other than from a dead stop on a hill. Engine is maybe a 300HP 302 so similar setup to your goal.

    Don't waste any time and $$ on the stock 7.5. 8.8 rear ends are plentiful enough and available cheaply. The 7.5 will cost you the same $$ to build up as an 8.8 and will never last for long behind anything of decent power levels, especially if you run slicks or even sticky street tires. Some guys have blown then up even with stock 200HP engines. You can baby the 7.5 until the funds are available if needed, but don't waste any $$ on the 7.5. Heck if you're close enough I will give you a 7.5 from an SVO with 3.45 gears and a posi if you want.
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Stalled RestoModification
    1984 SVO Still Waiting Restoration
    1986 GT Under going Wide Body Conversion Currently

    Current Capris:
    1981 Capri Roller
    1981 Capri Black Magic Roller Basket Case
    1982 Capri RS 5.0/4spd T-top Full Restoration Stalled in TX
    1984 Capri RS T-top Roller
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts

  12. #12

    Default

    One of the guys helping me has a parts V8 car that he's giving me the fuel lines and tank from. They've all been super cool about it, plus this guy has owned over 30 foxbodies and has lots of parts. They told me basically all I'd have to find is a pump and they'll supply the rest. I crawled under it today after doing more research and discovered that it already has a 8.8 in it. Woohoo! The guy told me it was it had a 7.5 so I never even looked. Most certainly a 8.8 . Need to take it apart and see what gears I got and if there's a LSD in there. I'm not quite sure how I'm gonna find out what to do with the factory wiring, need to find some pinouts and wiring diagrams. Also with torque converters what would you recommend for a solid street car? Obviously I don't want to rev to 3k at every stoplight lol.

  13. #13
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Some one with a parts car and knowledge will definitely help. I still think there are better ways to go EFI on the 4 Eyes, but then again I am the same guy that is stuff a 5.4 DOHC Navigator engine into a 1982 GT, so . . . . .

    As for wiring, unfortunately the 1984 model year suffered from really crappy wiring that has insulation issues that cause even more issues than other years in my experience. Definitely take some time to look everything over and make sure everything is in good shape, you definitely don't want to do all that work and then have it burn to the ground due to an electrical fire.

    I am not an automatic guy, so I can't give you any information in regards to torque converter options. I have only had 2 Foxes with automatics and both of those were converted to 5 speeds pretty quickly. I am sure other FEP members can chime in with some advice. Good Luck!
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Stalled RestoModification
    1984 SVO Still Waiting Restoration
    1986 GT Under going Wide Body Conversion Currently

    Current Capris:
    1981 Capri Roller
    1981 Capri Black Magic Roller Basket Case
    1982 Capri RS 5.0/4spd T-top Full Restoration Stalled in TX
    1984 Capri RS T-top Roller
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts

  14. #14

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    Guess I should figure out what powerplant I even want. Basically he's given me the option of a free explorer motor or a free 351W. I'm not really sure which one I want to go with. I like the idea of the 351W being stronger and have a lot more room for power, but I don't see myself really wanting much more than 300rwhp. Also an explorer motor would be easier for my first swap. Any other opinions on 351w vs Explorer 302?

  15. #15
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    A 351W is a great engine, but depending on what year and model it is from will determine what you are really starting with. Most of the time a 351W will be a truck engine that is not really a performance engine to begin with. The compression is 8-8.5:1, the heads are nothing special, pistons are cast, etc. If the engine is a Lightning setup then a different animal all together. If the 351W block is a F4TE then you have similar setup to the first list, but at least a roller block. To run a roller cam in any 351W that is not the F4TE block you will have to either run a small base circle roller and the stock roller lifters or spend the extra $$ for the linked roller lifters and a standard roller camshaft. Obviously you can run a flat tappet setup in either block without issues.

    The other issue is that unless the 351W is coming out of Fox Mustang right now, you will need an oil pan, headers, intake, front A/C braket, etc. to fit the 351W into a Fox. You should already have most of those parts for the 302 already and therefore save $$ in the budget for other parts and pieces.

    Personally if going 351W, then you need to go all in for added headaches and expense IMHO. A 393, 408, 427 stroker is the way to go. A "stock" 351W doesn't make that much power over a decent 302/5.0 in many cases. Yes the 351W has more torque and that can be awesome, but if anything that just breaks some of the weak links in the Mustang drivetrain such as the T5. The 302 likes to rev a bit better, more engine room to work on, doesn't have possible hood clearance issues the 351W can have, etc.

    With your proposed budget and stated desires, I believe the Explorer engine is the better option at this point in time and will get you to the power level you want within your budget. Good Luck!
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Stalled RestoModification
    1984 SVO Still Waiting Restoration
    1986 GT Under going Wide Body Conversion Currently

    Current Capris:
    1981 Capri Roller
    1981 Capri Black Magic Roller Basket Case
    1982 Capri RS 5.0/4spd T-top Full Restoration Stalled in TX
    1984 Capri RS T-top Roller
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts

  16. #16

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    I had to make the same decision. Since I'm not building some kind of drag car, the 302 is easily modded to the 400 range, which is the absolute max I'd ever want to stick through this tinfoil chassis and, every part fit without modification, that sealed the deal. I'm really aiming for low 300-ish hp, as that puts me in the same general power-to-weight as my 14 GT and everything will last forever at that power level.

  17. #17

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    What is your opinion on carb vs efi? I really want to do carb just for the simplicity and I've never had a carbed car. Buddies are telling me EFI is easy to swap and a lot nicer to work with. I plan on this being a nice weekend street car and nothing more. If gas mileage was a concern I wouldn't be using the C4 lol.

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