Degreeing My New Cam

[xctasy]

It still sounds sexy with a rasp to die for though.

Its like this Brad...you pull your big boy trousers up and say xctasy, wuddahz he know...didly squatt. This is my car, and Im Brad , you dipshi+ kiwi.....


Others find them dreadfully restrictive, but they still allow 6250 rpm...

[ZephyrEFI]

It still sounds sexy with a rasp to die for though.

Its like this Brad...you pull your big boy trousers up and say xctasy, wuddahz he know...didly squatt. This is my car, and Im Brad , you dipshi+ kiwi.....


Others find them dreadfully restrictive, but they still allow 6250 rpm...

I'm cool with everything. Just trying to give you a hard time. You're just trying to educate us that these engines are capable of much more.

[erratic50]

A lot of people port the lower on the Explorer intake because they really don’t flow a hell of a lot better than a set of E7 heads do when left untouched. The don’t flow as well as a GT40 or GT40P head in a couple places.

Translated — install all the head you want .... that intake will restrict it.

Yes they flow over 160 CFM per intake port so they will max out an E7 head based combo.

Just know that they struggle to go much beyond that untouched. The name of the game is CFM per port and you need to do some cleanup Tom Moss documented to get there.

That particular intake is all done by around 5800 usually because of plenum volume vs runner length causing air velocity to get crazy about there. Tom shortened one by 2” and got the exact same 1/4 mile times with it as he got with a Cobra intake on the same ported base, and shift points moved up past 6000.

Factoring in the intake FTI did things exactly right doing 4 degrees of advance. You won’t be able to make more power past 5800 anyway because of the intake design.

You will get really good results.


Just take your time putting it together. If it takes more than about 40 ft/lbs at the balancer to rotate an assembled shortblock something is likely wrong. It’s worth double checking everything.

Take your time. Verify your pistons fit the bores properly and are pointed in the right way. Check ring gap in each bore and file fit if needed.

Plastigauge all the rod and main bearings. I always try to get mine to come in at 0.001 less than max tolerance spec on the rods and most of the mains. Front and rear main I go 0.002 tighter than max as that seems to avoid any knocking from accessories and helps keep the front and rear main seals in good shape.

Assembly lube everything and be sure to prime your oil pump.

Personally I like using thread in oil galley plugs and I like to run a fairly high pressure spring in the bypass at the oil pump. I’ve used that approach because more oil pressure extends the RPM range of what you can do before you need to worry about hydraulic lifter collapse. Pressure does also increases oil flow volume making it critically important that the oil pickup is properly spaced at the bottom of the oil pan. Never use a high volume pump without a high volume pan, btw. Learned that one the hard way, btw...

If you go too crazy on pressure you can wash out bearings and blow it up. Usually it’s the combination of tight tolerances and high pressure that does it.

Oil pressure games is the trick my dad used in the 60’s and early 70’s to dominate where we are from on the street and the trick he helped us use in the 90’s to dominate on the dirt track and the street.

Any time you can build a V8 out of mostly junkyard parts and get it to rev willingly past 6500 you’re doing something right. The last engine I built with him stuck at WOT while someone else was test driving a car I was trying to sell. (Supposedly - throttle seemed just fine....) the tach memory showed it was at 9000 — that motor threw a rod. That’s the one I made the mistake of a high volume pump and a stock pan on. Tear down revealed the bearings were oil starved and there was oil sucked into the PCV valve which tells me all the oil was up top - probably none in the pan. What a waste..... that motor ran incredibly good, was really sad to see it blown up.

[ZephyrEFI]

The two things the Explorer intake had going for it for me were 1) Is it better than an HO intake? Yes. 2) Is it WAY more affordable than a Cobra intake? Yes.

I've been trying to take my time. I usually just walk away if I get too frustrated and leave it for another day. I guess I need to try a little harder though. The rotating assembly was put together by guys who are supposed to be experts, so if I were to go and take that back apart to measure things just sounds like asking for trouble to me. I paid a lot of money to get a shortblock that should be ready to go. If I felt good about removing pistons and stuff, I would've rebuilt my old engine myself. See, this breaking the thrust plate thing? That's pretty typical for me. My confidence is low. I'm really dreading dealing with pushrod measuring and rocker arm adjusting.

Also, I already bought a stock replacement oil pump. No oil pressure shenanigans for me. This is a car I want to survive for a good long time in nearly daily driver use. I will DEFINITELY be priming the oil pump though.

[ZephyrEFI]

So, I've got my parts in, and have started re-assembly. I just noticed there's a chip out of the face of the cam sprocket. Is it okay to use, or should I replace it?



Thanks

[dynodon64]

That's not going to hurt anything.

[ZephyrEFI]

That's not going to hurt anything.

Cool, thanks

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[ZephyrEFI]

Alright, so I finally got the chance to go through the whole process today.



I'm using the solid lifter that came with my pushrod measuring kit because the rod on my dial indicator isn't long enough to reach the lobe itself. I installed the cam dot to dot. I first found TDC by using the piston stop and averaging the degree wheel readings. I then set the degree wheel to 0 at TDC. An average of 50 thousandths before and after maximum intake lift got me 113.5 degrees for the intake center line. I removed the dial indicator and re-set up all the brackets again from scratch and redid it again, and got the same thing. According to the cam card, it should be 107 degrees. Is that a realistic possibility? Did I maybe do something wrong? Do I need to retard this thing? Or is this the "ground 4 degrees advanced" thing?

[ZephyrEFI]

Brad,

A camshaft ground 4-degrees advanced (that, or 5-degrees advanced on a 112-degree lobe spread camshaft, which is common) means that if installed "straight up", like with a standard timing set (with no optional key way slots) dot-to-dot, the camshaft is to be positioned at 4-degrees advanced. Say the lobe separation is 112-degrees... true "straight up" would put both the intake and exhaust centerlines at 112-degrees ATDC (after top dead center)... what 4-degrees advance "ground in" means is that that the intake centerline should be at 108-degrees ATDC, and the exhaust should be at 116-degrees ATDC, when installed with your timing set gears positioned in the "straight up" positions...

I'm a bit confused by the wording here. I have the timing set lined up dot to dot. The cam card says intake centerline should be 107 degrees. Does that mean when I degreed the cam with the timing set dot to dot I SHOULD have seen something in the neighborhood of 107 degrees, or that I should have seen something closer to 111 degrees, which is what I AM getting? I'm getting 113.5 degrees.

I would just email Ed Curtis about this, but I'm feeling stupid at the moment.

[Walking-Tall]

You should be seeing exactly what you just said, with the timing set installed "straight up". By doing what you've done, the degreeing process, you are seeing exactly what I mentioned earlier, regarding manufacturing and/or machining tolerances with manufactured parts... one or the other, either the camshaft has no "ground in" advance like they said it does, or the timing set "straight up" key way is machined/manufactured in a retarded scenario. Do what you need to do to put the intake center line (are you absolutely certain you are measuring the intake lobe and not the exhaust lobe?) at 107-degrees, or closest to that... which to me sounds like repositioning the timing set to it's (4-degrees?) advanced setting crankshaft key way... if what you've measured is correct, the intake center line ends up at 113.5-degrees with the "straight up" crankshaft sprocket key way, moving the crankshaft gear to the advanced position should put the intake lobe center line at 109.5-degrees... which is close...

[ZephyrEFI]

You should be seeing exactly what you just said, with the timing set installed "straight up". By doing what you've done, the degreeing process, you are seeing exactly what I mentioned earlier, regarding manufacturing and/or machining tolerances with manufactured parts... one or the other, either the camshaft has no "ground in" advance like they said it does, or the timing set "straight up" key way is machined/manufactured in a retarded scenario. Do what you need to do to put the intake center line (are you absolutely certain you are measuring the intake lobe and not the exhaust lobe?) at 107-degrees, or closest to that... which to me sounds like repositioning the timing set to it's (4-degrees?) advanced setting crankshaft key way... if what you've measured is correct, the intake center line ends up at 113.5-degrees with the "straight up" crankshaft sprocket key way, moving the crankshaft gear to the advanced position should put the intake lobe center line at 109.5-degrees... which is close...

I could see myself making the mistake of measuring the exhaust lobe, but I'm doing the forward-most lobe on that side. From what I can see on the head, the intake runner is forward of the center of the cylinder, and the exhaust port is rearward, so we should be good there.



Here's a look at the timing set alignment.



Here's the method I'm using. Approximately 4:00 minutes to 15:00 minutes for the nitty gritty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yN4NymeU58&t=909s

[ZephyrEFI]

Also of note, I found a sheet from Flowtech with all the same numbers on it as the Comp cam card. It says "Degree this camshaft using the specifications provided on this cam sheet".

107 degree intake centerline and 110 degree lobe separation.

[Walking-Tall]

You're right, the very first/front lobe on the camshaft for a SBF is #1's intake lobe. Just checking... I went and looked at my stuff to verify.

Briefly, IMHO, "ground in" advance is a fancy way of saying that the camshaft's dowel pin hole is located a few degrees off "center". We're talking about a 2 to 1 relationship, crankshaft to camshaft... where the crankshaft has to turn two full revolutions for the camshaft to turn one full revolution. A 2-degree advanced location of the dowel pin hole at the camshaft would equal a 4-degree advanced measurement of crankshaft degrees. You'd have to ask a cam grinder guy for certain, but surely the lobe grinding operation isn't all skewed those couple degrees. Pretty damn sure that any "advance" would be instilled and happening with the dowel pin hole location. At the end of the day, I believe that the position of the installed camshaft is dictated by where exactly the dowel pin hole is located.

Eether, either, double check your findings, and if you have to install the timing set in the advanced position to better locate the intake lobe highest lift center line, so be it...

[ZephyrEFI]

Yeah, I'll definitely redo it. I looked around online to see if I maybe installed the timing set wrong, but the dot on the cam sprocket IS, in fact, supposed to line up with the keyway.

Also, so I'm clear, I've been avoiding "heads on" degreeing articles because I'm trying to avoid getting into the valvetrain stuff before I really have to so I can focus on just getting the cam right. All of this is new to me.

[dynodon64]

You will need a crank gear with the extra key ways or an offset key to get this thing in time.

[ZephyrEFI]

My crank sprocket does actually have 4 degree advanced and retarded options on it.

Alright, I just noticed something. My degree wheel has positive and negative numbers on it.



So far, I've been treating them all as positive (oops). This time, I started with the degree wheel at approximate 0 for TDC. I got -20 and +18 at the piston stop (which I adjusted out a bit just to try it). Average that and you get -1. Adjust wheel and move on. The next readings I got were both on the negative end of the scale, which seems to be the same as in the video I linked above. This time I got 104 degrees for the intake center line. The cam sheet says it should be 107, BUT, in the Flowtech part number it also says " +3° ". Sooooo... that... might be something?

I'm gonna go do it a few more times...

[ZephyrEFI]

So, results over the rest of the day were about as consistent as my setup really allows. I got between 102.5 and 104 degrees. Again, being new to this, I don't know if getting results 3-5 degrees off is something that typically happens or not when degreeing cams. As for my range of numbers, I would attribute that to my degreeing equipment. My dial indicator mount and bracketry, as well as how my cheap degree wheel attaches to the crankshaft just allows too much potential for slop. Oh, and my stand-in lifter wanted to turn too.

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[ZephyrEFI]

Did some more farting around with this over the past few days. Experimented with the other keyways and stuff. Looks like I'm getting about 104 in the straight up position and about 111 in the retarded position. So, I'm not getting that sweet spot this way. What do you think I should do?

I'm pretty sure as the chain wears we'll get closer. I'd much rather have it too advanced than too retarded.

[erratic50]

You may want to discuss what you are seeing with FTI. I've seen timing sets ground with as much as 5 degrees advance and 5 degrees of retard in them over the years messing around with engines.

Summit does sell offset cam pins that can help fine-tune with your timing set if you aren't getting what you want.

There's a LOT that comes from very minor changes in cam degrees on a motor. A TON.


The best example from the factory of a transformation from turd to rock-star is the 400M. Back in the 70's Ford put out the 400M with a cam that's retarded 4 degrees from the factory. The cam wasn't awesome but wasn't terrible on lift/duration. Bear in mind that beast ran Cleveland style heads so it should have made ungodly power but it didn't. It was a dud. The reason was Ford put oversized intake ports on them then put such a restrictive exhaust manifold on that the motor that one could never use the breathing capability of the 4-barrel carb they put on it. (correction -- they only ran large 2 barrel carbs on them from the factory -- also a WASTE) The things had no low end grunt because of poor port velocity and were all done before they ever came into their cam because of exhaust restrictions. Shave the heads enough to recover some compression then swap timing sets on those for one that runs it straight-up for even 2-3 degrees advance and put on a decent set of headers and a proper intake and have about 75% more low-end torque and around double the factory horsepower those turds made and the truck will get way better gas mileage too. My uncle had a supercab that this was done to. It had 3.73's and a 4 speed behind it and would tow a gooseneck trailer with a bobcat and overflowing with tools down the road faster than any lunatic should ever drive it. (and one often did.... )

If you go too far advanced you start getting concerned about piston/valve clearance on the intake valve.

[ZephyrEFI]

You may want to discuss what you are seeing with FTI. I've seen timing sets ground with as much as 5 degrees advance and 5 degrees of retard in them over the years messing around with engines.

Summit does sell offset cam pins that can help fine-tune with your timing set if you aren't getting what you want.

There's a LOT that comes from very minor changes in cam degrees on a motor. A TON.


The best example from the factory of a transformation from turd to rock-star is the 400M. Back in the 70's Ford put out the 400M with a cam that's retarded 4 degrees from the factory. The cam wasn't awesome but wasn't terrible on lift/duration. Bear in mind that beast ran Cleveland style heads so it should have made ungodly power but it didn't. It was a dud. The reason was Ford put oversized intake ports on them then put such a restrictive exhaust manifold on that the motor that one could never use the breathing capability of the 4-barrel carb they put on it. The things had no low end grunt because of poor port velocity and were all done before they ever came into their cam because of exhaust restrictions. Shave the heads enough to recover some compression then swap timing sets on those for one that runs it straight-up for even 2-3 degrees advance and put on a decent set of headers and a proper intake and have about 75% more low-end torque and around double the factory horsepower those turds made and the truck will get way better gas mileage too. My uncle had a supercab that this was done to. It had 3.73's and a 4 speed behind it and would tow a gooseneck trailer with a bobcat and overflowing with tools down the road faster than any lunatic should ever drive it. (and one often did.... )

If you go too far advanced you start getting concerned about piston/valve clearance on the intake valve.

I did finally email them, now that I've mostly wrapped my head around what I'm doing. Didn't want to sound like an idiot.

That's pretty cool about the 400 that you can wake it up like that.

Yeah, I can see piston to valve clearance being a concern. I've BEEN a bit concerned about since both my heads and pistons have "a bump in compression" baked into them. I had a guy comment to me that the valve reliefs were HUGE on the pistons though, so I've been less worried since then. I'll still check it though.

[erratic50]

My favorite is reading about the crazy off the wall builds magazines did with 400M's once the rumors of powerful 400M combos started getting confirmed as way more than a myth.

They were under-powered pigs from the factory, that is for sure. Most of it was the retarded cam for the average truck owner's purposes.

here are a few articles I enjoyed that all came out well after the 400Ms in my life were long since played with as much as they ever would be
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp...-engine-build/
http://www.projectbronco.com/Technic...e_build_up.htm
https://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/...d400/index.php

[ZephyrEFI]

Flowtech thinks something is fishy with the timing set. I just ordered a high quality one to replace it. I want to be done with this already!

[erratic50]

That is the right call Brad! Your other option would have been to get offset cam pins to try to dial it in that way.....

I totally agree -- get another timing set!

[ZephyrEFI]

(SIGH), I've got a yet another tangent/confusion/delay for you.



What is this washer for? Why didn't my other timing set come with one?

Edit: nevermind, I guess. I found my answer. Info says brass thrust washer MUST be fitted. So, I'll fit it. And my thing about requiring a torrington thrust plate was wrong. I don't have the part number I thought I did.

Man, this set is SUPER nice....

[ZephyrEFI]

Wellllllllll, I was a little concerned when I heard people have needed to modify those brass washers for thickness, but mine actually didn't need it. Everything fits nicely once installed.

Degreed the cam again, and got an intake centerline of 106!! Success!! The target is 107, so I am VERY happy with that!

XC, you'll be pleased to hear my new timing set is a Rollmaster from Australia!