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  1. #1

    Default Oil Pumps & Related

    So, if you would please, educate me about oil pumps. I notice my shortblock did not come with one. I went on Summit last night to do a little shopping, and got a little overwhelmed. My engine will make something in the neighborhood of 300 horsepower. 350 at the VERY most. Do I need a high volume oil pump? What are the advantages? Do I have to then put more oil in when I do oil changes?

    I was looking at the ARP oil pump shaft. Seems like a good thing, but down below it says "For use with high volume pump: YES", does that mean it won't fit in a standard volume pump? Or is that just a strength thing?

    Is a new pickup a good idea? I know Summit has its issues with getting application right, and most just say they are for an SBF. Is there any danger I'd end up with one for a single sump pan vs. the Fox dual sump pan?

    Thanks!
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  2. #2

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    Basically a high volume pump has taller gears to push more oil for each rotation, which puts more of a strain on the pump shaft, and it may twist.
    Do you need a high volume pump may be a question for your short block supplier, It can depend on your bearing clearances and how fast the oil returns to the pan. For example a FE Ford can suck the pan dry in some instances with a high volume pump.

    I would use a standard volume pump.

    I think the pump shaft is just a strength thing and you can use it with a standard volume pump.

    I would use a new pickup for insurance, if you by one local to you at least you can look at it to see if it is right.

    Hope this helps, maybe someone smarter than me can chime in.
    Mike
    85 GT - owned since 87

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by JKengineering View Post
    I would use a standard volume pump.
    That's definitely the way I'm leaning. I'm pretty skeptical these days about the actual value of many of the mods people do. For example, buying WAY more fuel pump than you actually need. I'm far more likely to be of the opinion if it's good enough for the OEMs and all the durability testing they do, it's good enough for me.

    I just have no point of reference when it comes to oil pumps. I've never even dealt with one, so I don't know anything about them. Thanks for the input! Anyone else?
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  4. #4

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    standard melling is what you should run. Also, run the ford racing oil pump shaft, as I've heard the ARP requires cutting down for a perfect fit, and the Ford (which I've used) does not
    Jeremy
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    Entire 1986 electrical and vacuum troubleshooting manual download
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  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by v8only View Post
    standard melling is what you should run. Also, run the ford racing oil pump shaft, as I've heard the ARP requires cutting down for a perfect fit, and the Ford (which I've used) does not
    I would have never known that, thanks!
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  6. #6
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Default

    Depending on the temperature outside when you start the motor and what oil you use and if you use a block heater or not .... there is a risk of the oil pump drive twisting off before the sheer pin on the distributor lets go. When that happens you lose all oil pressure and if the engine is ran it will blow up

    The hardened shafts are designed to for the sheer pin to let go if anything does

    The problem with a high volume pump is the oil return aspect. If you run a HV pump is a standard pan and do nothing to improve oil return then pump will send all of the oil to the top of the motor and the result is no oil in the pan - again it blows up

    Some say add a quart to the pan, but then the issue is windage and oil slapping the crank when it’s not all revved up. Again, the engine is hurt

    So now the next answer is install a high capacity oil pan. It’s the right move but it costs $$$$. Also if you don’t get your pickup depth set right you may have less usable oil capacity than with a stock pan. Or you can suction the pickup to the bottom of the pan and lose oil pickup capability. Etc

    People talk about volume all the time but rarely about pressure. Yet we know from fuel that as pressure increases flow volume increases - sometimes drastically

    There is a spring that sets the pump bypass pressure. Stuff like https://www.cantonracingproducts.com...high-pressure/

    The caution I will give is that if you do not convert to thread-in oil gallie plugs you will likely blow the plugs out — you’ll lose all oil pressure and pump all the oil out the newly created hole. It’s a fire hazard and a likely source of engine failure.

    That being said ...... If you understand and accept the high pressure risks and your bearing tolerances are wide enough to accept deal with more without washing out from the added pressure — one of the huge benefits is more toleration to valve spring pressure and therefore more toleration to RPM by a hydraulic lifter setup. But your pickup depth needs to be lower and you need to increase oil change interval or your right back to needing a $$$$$ pan.

    Honestly high oil pressure is how my dad often got max valve lift at RPM out of mostly stock part motors. That lets them reliably peak out on power at RPMs well past their advertised peaks without solids or shimmed lifters, etc. A trick for a poor man to get a real hot rod.

    I know when I helped do this trick to the dirt track motors I helped build in the early 90’s those motors seriously kicked butt. We got accused of every type of cheating you could think of then when the rules were enforced and we had to sell our motor to the #2 guy for $300 they were always “smart” and rebuilt it complete with new bearings etc before we saw it on the track again. Lol - they never did figure out what was giving the advantage but it was dramatic

    Longevity wise as long as your bearing tolerances are on the loose side of spec and gallie plugs are addressed most motors tolerate oil pressure that is quite high. On a cold morning one of the engines we built this way carried 90 just past idle and buried the 120 psi gauge before 2500 when cold. When warm it carried 90 going down the road at 2000 and was at 120 by 5000. But it would float the valves a bit past 8 once we addressed some ignition limitations. It ran with ‘crazy’ oil pressure for years and years too


    Anyway - oil pumps and drives and pans are as much an art as they are a science. Stock parts give stock results. Play with one thing and it impacts other things. Know what changes and what to do about it or don’t play.

  7. #7

    Default

    More stuff I didn't know, thanks!

    I think I'll... not play. I'll stick with standard volume.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  8. #8

    Default

    Because high volume oil pumps require more power to turn them, they create a greater load on the distributor gears. In my experience they are the #1 failure cause of distributor gears.

    About 15 years ago, we tested an ARP oil pump shaft. It yielded at a lower torque level than a stock shaft did.

    The side clearance of the connecting rods has a significant affect on the resistance to oil flow through the engine. I've seen a number of $300 aftermarket connecting rods with way out of spec widths. In this case, the only solution would to use a high volume oil pump.

    I've never seen any need to use a high volume oil pump. This goes along with nonstock engine bearing clearances. Increased bearing clearance doesn't add engine power. The two parts of the bearing never touch each other. There is an oil film between them. Added bearing clearance does result in less resistance to oil flow, so it requires a high volume oil pump to maintain a constant oil pressure.

    I prefer to use a stock Ford pump which is aluminum. It weighs less than a cast iron pump.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hidley View Post
    About 15 years ago, we tested an ARP oil pump shaft. It yielded at a lower torque level than a stock shaft did.
    that's awesome.

    So there are SOME practical reasons for them, but it doesn't seem like that would be too common a problem.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  10. #10

    Default

    Interesting. I also wondered which pump I should go with for a recent build. I am certainly not professing to be an expert or trying to dispute anyone's experience or knowledge here but I thought I would comment for sake of discussion.

    From what I read most of the time on a new rebuild a standard oil pump is sufficient and is for sure easier on distributor gears and shafts etc. Most people seem to agree that a beefed up oil shaft is better than the stock. I suppose if something goes terribly wrong anything can fail but makes sense the shaft should outlast the distributor pin.

    I also read about the issue HV pumps sucking the pan dry but in my opinion that would mean at high RPM's you would have to be massively over oiling the valve train and basically fill the valve covers/ lifter valley which to me seems a bit unlikely in most normal cases. Where else would all the oil reside if the pan were truly empty for an instant etc ?

    It seems more logical to me that perhaps the pump pickup to pan clearance was maybe too tight and the pump cavitated as opposed to sucking the actual pan dry. Also I believe the HV pump is a bit taller and may not fit the stock pans without massaging them if I read correctly.

  11. #11
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Pin sheared 9/25/85, stock oem 2.3T oil pump, Valv 20w50 Racing oil , FL-1A. Stock pan and pickup.
    Happened 3 miles from home on way to work. 62° out. Going thru the gears on entrance ramp to freeway.
    Engine popped 2x, shut down on its own. Towed to dealer for new pin. Engine ok.

    Last time i used heavy oil in car 15w50 (Mobil 1) was 7/20/2002 to 7/23/2002.
    Engine rebuild had 20k on it.
    During assy, installed TRW high vol pump in engine for the aux cooler. Stock pan and pickup.
    Will use stock turbo pump next time.
    Oil cooler hose blew off the aux oil cooler fitting on the freeway driving home from work.
    Big time smoke show and quite a mess under hood. Seen pressure dropping. Shut it down, coasted and exited xway.
    Engine is fine.

    Later found 2.3 oil pressure spikes 80# cold, 55-60# warmed up 1000+ rpm; 22-25# hot day idle; 40-50# cold oil idle.
    That is what the Autometer mech gauge reads in the truck. And that is with 5w30 synthetic/FL-1A, stock pump, pan.
    Takes few miles longer to warm up oil and pressure to settle down in cold weather.
    10w30 now in car, 5w30 in truck, FL-1A, nothing else. Driven easy until oil is warm. No dist/pin in truck (8 plug 2.3).

    https://help.summitracing.com/app/an...re-oil-pump%3F
    Last edited by gr79; 04-26-2019 at 12:51 PM.

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