Question about 351w

[9DBlackMagic]

Hello fellow Fep fam. I plan on putting a 351w in my Capri. My questions are (1) can I reuse anything from my roller motor now. (2) what do I need to put it in my car. Thanks.

[bkm]

If your 351 block is a roller block, you can use the spider, lifters, and dog bones. Any block can use the heads if drilled for the 1/2 head bolts, timing cover, cam, and valve covers.

Other than that, not much. Intake, oil pan, distributor, flywheel/flex plate, balancer, and exhaust are different.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[bkm]

You'll need 351w swap headers, rear sump fox oil pan, 28oz balancer and flywheel/flex plate. The only thing I'm not sure about is the accessory bracket? I remember Ford Motorsports made a bracket kit years ago, but it might have been for a v-belt setup?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[wraithracing]

The front drive accessories will swap over from your current 5.0.

If you are running A/C you will need this part: https://lmr.com/item/M8511B351/85-93...racket-With-AC

If you are not running A/C you will need this part: https://lmr.com/item/M8511A351/85-93...g-Pump-Bracket

As long as you use the correct front balancer everything else will line up and work just fine.

[9DBlackMagic]

Thanks for the help I'm going to start collecting the stuff for the motor. (1) more question what distributor can I use other than after market

[erratic50]

Firing a 351W under the hood can be a challenge.

Drop mounts, K member spacers, etc, all necessary evils unless you go to a cowl hood.


Personally after all the research I’ve done on the effects of bore size vs air flow I would hesitate to get a 351W block. You can go to 353 at 4.155x3.25 in a Dart Block and have a high RPM screamer that can be rebuilt once at 0.030 larger. Or you can go to 4.185 and have a 360 in an 8.2 deck with a good rod ratio.

Or if 3.40 or 3.45 stroke don’t bother you, many build 4.125x3.40 363’s. The limits can go out past 380 cubes in an 8.2 deck “302” big bore block.

No deck height or bracket drama that way.

Roundibg about 1/16” of top ofcthe bore near the intake valve to help with valve shrouding and air tumbling due to the top of a 4” bore was done on a 3” stroke E7 302 motor. It yielded an additional 40HP in the engine masters article where the technique was chronicled. What do we suppose enlarging to a 4.185” bore might do even if the stroke were reduced to keep the displacement the same..... the answer is a LOT!

Best part is it looks STOCK

[mmb617]

Maybe I'm reading something into the OP's post that isn't there, but it sounds like he might be doing a budget build.

As soon as you start talking about a Dart block the word budget is stricken from the conversation. If you are spending the cash for that block then it goes without saying you're also buying top of the line expensive heads, all the best internals, etc. Before you can blink you have a ton of money in the engine, and that's just not in the cards for some of us.

I won't deny that a bigger bore is more conducive to good air flow, but building a big bore engine is much more expensive than simply going with more stroke.

And if we're talking about a street car the extra torque from a longer stroke will be noticeable in daily driving.

[erratic50]

I suggested the big bore block because of budget honestly. Not block budget. Everything else budget.

example engine block: https://www.jegs.com/i/Dart/301/31364275/10002/-1

much to my surprise Dart is fitting a 3.5” stroke in an 8.2 deck motor. Gross disgusting rod ratio be damned that is an ungodly amount of cubes in a “302 block”. Max is 385! Not that I would ever build something like that! Anyway ....

4.155 Mahle forged pistons and Scat 3.25” stroke crank and rods are off the shelf parts and priced accordingly. The most expensive piece is the big bore head gaskets at $70 each.

lets look at the 351W route. I’ve always wanted one honestly. A 427 cid stroker is just plain cool....

Making the W fit — the swap headers, intake, hood or drop mounts and K spacer, brackets, air cleaner, balancer and flywheel, and all of the other misc parts needed to do a W swap do add up very quickly also. And the W itself too.

My assumption was there was an existing investment in a motor that has useful parts to donate from valve covers to oil pan to heads and intake and exhaust and the 351W direction was for additional displacement for more power

Also it’s even more expensive to do something multiple times. Will a W yield the desired outcome ?? Depends on what’s desired mostly

Many times guys like to rev their cars up quite a bit. The physics behind a 3.5” or 4” stroke does not improve with RPM and the hardware investment in the bottom end needed to enable R’s is hard to ignore. It really shouldn’t be either. A shorter stroke tolerates more RPM always rotating hardware being equal

With that physics thing in mind the true RPM capacity of a big bore motor (with a shorter stroke) and a moderately priced rotating assembly is quite a bit more. Especially when you are talking about equal parts spend on the rotating assembly.

I thought why not look at overall spend vs displacement vs longevity as factors too. A shorter stroke spun to the same RPM will frequently live a lot longer.

Then you think about main bearing health at the W bearing diameter vs a 302. And consider stuff like 4 bolt mains too.

I love the raw torque of the longer strokes— don’t get me wrong. It it takes quite a bit of investment in a top end to keep them from falling on their face at 6000 ish, a lot to get a bottom end to take it, and also a lot to put that initial hit to the ground

I guess I suggested what I find I like at the end of the day. Driveable strong low end with the power climbing up top.

The low engine speed torque is great for pulling a trailer and for blowing the tires off unless great care is taken. It was once my cup of tea but I’ve gotten to be a bit more of an RPM junky over time I guess.

Some of your power and torque tendency is driven by displacement. The remaining power and torque come in at higher RPM with a shorter stroke which makes it quite a bit easier to keep a car hooked up in certain scenarios. One example - SCCA road course. My good friend has done a bunch to get rid of some of the low end grunt in his mostly stock 86’s 302. It smoked the tires too easily coming out of corners until corrections were made.

Another scenario is drag racing if you want to build mph on the “big” end. The shorter stroke similar displacement setup will tend to do that. And I don’t mean it’s slow out of the hole either, there’s just less torque to try to get to hook up

and some of that characteristic changes with air flow from a big bore, also a ton with cam selection.

but most everyone here knows all of that and more I guess

Anyway I don’t know that we even disagree as much as I just wanted to encourage others to think stuff through and make the best decision— for them.

Lots of people on here. Like you, 99% including you I consider friends. I like to see my friends happy. Under budget and ahead of schedule so-to-speak

As always Ive enjoyed the friendly discussion

[webestang]

LMR has a swap guide.....
https://lmr.com/products/Mustang-351w-Engine-Swap-Guide

[Jerry peachuer]

Good info
Something else to think about
Short block with all the good pieces money can buy 2800-3400 balanced and ready for war
Heads 1800-2100 best money can buy box stock (I would buy bare and buy everything seperately not production then and more of a blue printed piece by machinist sizing things
Port your perfect head 300-1100.00 with all the best equipment and flow test for proof it worked
Intake 300.00 match your CFM requirement another 300.00
Custom cam 300-380.00
Oil pan 300
Hood 300
Painted 300
Headers 450.00
Timing chain 100.00
Water pump 200.00
Bolt gaskets misc fasteners 300.00
Custom carb to maximize your combo
Dart block 2200 machined 800.00
Congrats 600 hp and crazy 500 ft lb torque and bad as Raw sound
Vs
Coyote gen 2 used 2800-5600.00.vs new 6700.00
Stock hood clears and decent low mile is ready for deal if you're lucky
Oil pan - need one anyhow
Heads nope
Headers need anyhow
Intake nope
Water pump nope
Timing chain nope
Bolts nope
Wire harness from Ford standalone 1800.00
Bits and pcs will add up but...
Congrats 400 rwhp with stock hood
Add remote twin turbo under near rear bumper you will instantly save temp as much as (400 degrees) I was told this .. don't quote me
And with a tune 600.00 ish you have 800 hp and 7200 rpm safe shifts around 4200 rpm your making real power and it sounds like a Ford Fusion until you hit gas (na)

I'm tossing idea vs stroked 351 myself and the quietness and factory hood and proven performance rwhp outcome are quite impressive
I'm a die hard carb loud car obnoxious kind of car guy
I'm really liking the stock sound of a coyote under a stock hood and the engine cover matches my interior and will match my bullits

Much more complicated so I thought until I see and printed instructions from Ford and other success stories on this forum if you look
Oh and prob double maybe even better than double MPG

Good luck

[PROJECT FULL CIRCLE]

Les, I have a 351W in my car. I pulled the motor last year to freshen up. It had been in storage for years, plus made some improvements.
I put a new Canton pan on and a low profile MSD distributor, just to mention a few things.
Anyways I have a mint 351 fox oil pan, distributor and many parts you are looking for. If you are still in need, email mail. I will give you
a great deal, always want to help out any other owner.

[mmb617]

I suggested the big bore block because of budget honestly. Not block budget. Everything else budget.

example engine block: https://www.jegs.com/i/Dart/301/31364275/10002/-1

Any build that starts with $2100 for a bare block is not budget in my book, but different people have different criteria. A few years ago I bought a complete stock roller block 351W from a scrap yard for $600 delivered. Now that's what I consider to be budget! I guess I kind of assumed the OP was talking about something more along those lines.

I'm not trying to start a fight and don't have any problem with anything you've said. I'm just pointing out that that different definitions of budget exist.

There was a guy running the same street class I ran who had his car in the 8's. The rumor was that he had $50k in his professionally built mountain motor on several stages of spray. To that guy a $25k motor would probably be a budget build. See what I mean?

[erratic50]

I see exactly what you mean on defining what a budget is!

I was simply suggesting the recent advancements going to such large bores in the aftermarket for our old iron pushrod engines is a bit of a game changer. Whst was built routinely before that advancement was the clear choice. W is for win.

but I thought as of right now it’s worth a second look

If you total up what it costs for that $600 block along with the other parts you do not have to rebuy if you stayed 8.2 deck and buy the better parts for the bottom end to target the same top RPM it becomes an interesting conversation— if nothing else.

Unless I’m doing the math in my head incorrectly, the two budgets are not that far apart.

Does it start coming down to what the future plans are for the car, planned power levels, etc.

If I were throwing the budget out the window ... Hmms. I dont know. I can see myself doing something crazy for my 86GT just to hurt feelings in the LS crowd.

That would probably onvolve going for enormous SBF power in a 9.5 deck block. But factor in everything I might end up with 4.185 (or Dart’s new 4.2 bore) and even go towards crazy with a 4.170 stroke. Around 460 cubes in a 9.5 form factor is just plain cool. But the bottom end would have to be beefy to hold up to RPM I’d want to run in spite of having that much stroke.

Fot my 85 build I wanted power but I didn’t want the engine become much of a discussion point that distracts from the car overall. I almost bought a Mc parts crate longblock for it honestly. The 8.2 353 cid mill will not be the conversation starter. A well trained eye will spot that it’s a Dart, to everyone else it’s just a 302. subtle - sorta like speak softly and carry a big stick - I guess.

[Jerry peachuer]

Sorry got carried away nothing I typed is budget .went through autoramma last night and everything was coyote swapped

look for 351w duraspark 2 setup they were factory with the correct module

Good luck

[bkm]

I've always wanted to do a 351w swap, but never did get around to it. The proper cylinder heads to feed the beast always had me sticking with the 8.2 stuff.

For a budget deal though, a jy short block and a solid flat tappet with the bigger China heads might be a fun combo?

[83gt351w]

Doesn’t take a lot to swap to a 351W. And once you go with one, you’ll never go back. Even a decent cam and intake on a factory headed 351 is a powerful engine. I believe the 351 I bought, cost me a 100 bucks. Just got a roller 302 for free, and I just picked up a roller 351 for 150. They’re out there, gotta look. If I was to pay 500 for one, I’d know the person, and hear it run first. A factory 351 will run all night, and day with 500hp. I’m one of those guys that hears “budget build” and it involves buying an aftermarket block, their budget and mine, are on two COMPLETELY different levels.

[mmb617]

Hope the OP doesn't mind if I take the thread slightly off the rails and just throw out some general BS for a bit. The weather here is crap, my car won't leave the garage for at least another month or so and I'm bored to tears.

If you total up what it costs for that $600 block along with the other parts you do not have to rebuy if you stayed 8.2 deck and buy the better parts for the bottom end to target the same top RPM it becomes an interesting conversation— if nothing else.

When I bought the $600 engine I didn't do much to it at all, just swapped on my intake, carb and a fox swap oil pan. My car was already set up for a Windsor so I dropped it in. It still had the stock heads and cam. Now that's on budget!

The reason behind all this was that I'd blown up my 393 mid-year and was in the middle of a points race at my track. I didn't have the money to replace it with something similar and wanted to finish out the year. Since it was bracket racing I could run slower and still compete so I decided to run the stock 351 to finish out the year.

This is what my $600 bought me:






And here it is cleaned up and ready to go:






That motor ran consistent high 13's for me with a best of 13.62, which was actually better than I expected. It was from an F150 and with the stock heads and cam was all done at 4500 rpm. Once I figured out how much deeper I needed to roll in to get decent reaction times I did well with it.

If I would have taken that motor and used better heads and cam, not necessarily top shelf stuff, I'm sure I could run easy 12's with it and not really have much money in it.

If I were throwing the budget out the window ... Hmms. I dont know. I can see myself doing something crazy for my 86GT just to hurt feelings in the LS crowd.

That can be a slippery slope for sure. I have a friend I met through racing who has a really nice '65 Mustang. When I met him at the track 10 years ago his car looked stock but had a 408 under the hood and ran high 11's. He swore he didn't want to go faster than 11.5 because he didn't want a roll cage in his car. But of course he kept tweaking things and before long he had done a really nice job of installing the roll bar while keeping the rear seat and mainly stock appearance.

Another year or two goes by and he shows up with a big bore 427 and starts running mid-low 10's. Car still looks amazingly stock though.

I think it was the year before last that he first broke into the 9's, now with a 434 powering the way. I'll have to give him credit for one thing, he always said he wanted to retain the stock look as much as possible and he's done that. His car weighs in at 3400 lbs, which is certainly heavy for a single digit car but other than the roll cage (which he did a really good job of concealing as much as possible) and the big meats, you'd almost think it was only slightly warmed up. In street trim with his full 3" exhaust on it the sound level isn't even that bad. Anyone who knows cars would know there's a lot more than stock under the hood if they heard it running, but I doubt if most people would peg it as a 9 second car.

I know that he is far too mature to engage in any street racing but I'm also sure a lot of guys who think they have fast street cars would see nothing but his tail lights if he did. He's kind of my hero!

[erratic50]

1. Intake manifold – EFI. Call it $400 additional to buy another lower for an existing upper. Adapter plates are offered but are prone to leak.
2. Headers - 351 swap headers. Varies widely. $300 is about as low as it goes
3. Oil Pan – 351 pan, etc. Around $140
4. Accessory Brackets – AC - $100
5. Distributor – For 351W - with steel gear setups like the one found on the 1996 F150 351W dizzy is the cheapest possible $40 shipped
6. Hood clearance – fiberglass hoods. Around $500 plus the ride then it needs body and paint work. $1000 is not out of line

I come up with $1940 in 351W specific swap parts, conservatively. And I forgot the W engine block in this list entirely!

Sourced from an F150 or Econoline in the bone yard it’s hard to say what it would have that’s worth using.

Harmonic balancer and flywheel are necessary for both, etc

Could it be done cheaper? Sure. Could it cost a lot more than that ? Absolutely.

That $2100 block isnt out of line. Especially considering the power gains you see with the bigger bore, and the less cost involved in a 3.25” rotating assembly that will tolerate 6500 RPM. And even then you should be VERY concerned about main bearing health at those R’s on a factory W block

[erratic50]

mmb617 - sounds like you did your 351W on a real shoestring budget. Having most of the extras from the 393 and getting some useful stuff from the junkyard bullet certainly helped you!

As for your buddy’s car, that type of stuff is sorta my hero as well. That type of stuff is bad-ass

[Jerry peachuer]

Great stuff to know and beyond respectable for 351 na power
Add some gear just to keep it where it makes power as long as possible without overdoing it

OP didn't say carb or EFI I don't think
351 with 373 gear and dura spark dizzy and 750 carb with performer rpm dual plane intake
Long tubes and pick a cam for 1500-5500
And the long block per above u pull it or if possible something you can for sure here run before you buy it

depending if you can source used intake and retired headers and swap meet parts
I write down part numbers for stuff I need and dimensions on things like (axle lengths )and when I go to swap meet I know by part number on my piece of paper if it will work or not
Some 351 headers for instance will not work with a T5 to a C4
Some dizzys will not work with single plane intake on a 351w
Some water pumps are reverse rotation can stabdard rotation
Some starters will not work
So my point is look and find out what works and what you want by writing down part numbers and keep it in your glove box or somewhere close
I don't know how many times I went to someone's house to buy something else and they had something
else I also ended up buying..It was DESTINY lol
This happened just last weekend and was way too unrelated why I was there and had nothing to do with why I was there
Also garage sales are another thing I like to do and my wife just shakes her head at me when I bring parts home for a car I don't even own but couldn't pass up because of the price sorta thing

Also find a buddy to store all of your parts ..that you need but maybe for another build 15 years later down the road like me so the wife don't know lol

Stock stuff works and per your original statement of "not aftermarket" I believe you would find your answer above by someone running a swapped 351 with very respectable results with sourcing right reusable parts

Follow a build that works not magazine article you can always build on your build when money permits
Good luck

[9DBlackMagic]

Thanks everyone for your support. Right now my Capri has a 91 roller motor and carbureted.

[erratic50]

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

Trey can attest that I spent a ton of time pouring over details — WAY too much time probably — looking everything over in detail before I got out my pocket book and squeezed the trigger on a bullet for my 85 build

And I didn’t swing for the fences on displacement because of how that impacts the stroke length on the rotating parts in the engine and what that does to longevity.