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  1. #51
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Saleen in 1995 was where Ford Australia was in 2002. Alloy heads with flowrates worse than the better 2V Cleveland heads and far worse thsn the worst 4V Cleveland heads...they were rolled out but then Ford decided to recant on a full supply of factory aluminums, there were a range of new and better induction, stroked out over five liter V8 options emerging. Calibrations exist right now for Edlebrock headed 5.0 , 5.8 and 331/347 strokers.SEFI maps were done at Ford USA by Jack Roush early on, then Ford opted out during the turbelent OBDIII on star style debate after operation Desert Storm. The Cammers then got all the development.

    The whole aftermarket calibrations for 5.0's with cams was taken care of by the supply of Lightening 90mm MAF's.These advances allowed Ford Australia to fix the dreadfully restrictive GT40 intake and heads that flow less than a factory 1976-1983 4bbl Cleveland manifold and a set of 2V Cleveland heads.Ford decided not to do s concurrsncy horse race with a pushrod 5.0 verses a quad cam 4.6, 5.0,5.2 or 5.4.Stay with what you have, and make the little SEFi sweeter than a five sugar coffee!

  2. #52

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    Even though what I have is "dreadfully restrictive"?

    Wait... what are you suggesting I do? Scrap everything and get a 351 Cleveland?
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  3. #53
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    The stock GT40 style intake falls off the peak power limit at 5500 rpm with 302 cubic inches, even though it'll still rev to 6250 rpm. This is classic EFi upper rev range limitation means that its only suitable for about 325 hp unboosted. It flatlines rapidly past 4800 rpm and 305 hp with a 347 or 351.I think Saleen got 371 hp one year with its alloy headed R351 and that kind of intake, unboosted. Boosted, 480 hp.

    yep http://www.mustangandfords.com/news/...aleen-mustang/

    The S-351s started with '94 Lightning 5.8 short-blocks, to which Saleen added Edelbrock aluminum heads, 30-pound injectors, a roller camshaft and lifters, a 77mm mass-air sensor and 65mm throttle body. The final tally was 371-rated horsepower at 5,100 rpm and 422 lb-ft of torque at 3,500
    And that sure looks like the stock GT40 style intake.



    4bbl Clevelands with even 2v heads and just a Boss 351 4bbl or Thermoquad or aftermarket Holley 4bbl could go over 330 hp and rev up to 6300 rpm with just cam, compression and exhaust changes.

  4. #54
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Thread hijackers anonymous? Well, guess we aren’t that anonymous. Lol

    There is a CFM restriction in the GT40 lower. They are strangled to around 160 CFM per cyl as cast. Lots better than 110 on front and rear holes and 130 on the other 6 like we see on the stock 5.0HO intake.

    Stock form aligns perfectly with flow potential of E7 heads. With the right cam ..... which can even be a stock H.O. with 1.7:1 rockers - and the mill will see it’s top around 6100 but only with the right upper and headers and exhaust.

    The lower is easily ported to flow past 250 CFM per port. Tom Moss publishes detailed write ups on doing it.

    I implied a problem with that upper. Here it is —. Many do not realize or understand the difference between a tubular GT40, Cobra, and Explorer/Mountaineer. The explorer/mountaineer intake has about 2” more runner length. This moves the air velocity numbers up to where you hit a wall from a CFM perspective at around 5800 on a 302. Less on a stroker. Tom Moss cut down an Explorer intake and replicated the RPM range and 1/4 mile times of a Cobra upper about a decade ago. I have pictures of that intake somewhere from when he had it for sale.

    The problems do not particularly impact a normal E7 style Mustang head motors. They will do what you want from idle past 6000 and will have a nice torque curve. Or 5800 with the Explorer upper.

    So when you throw more head air flow into the equation and expecially if you add more cubes — you start to see that falloff of output as RPMs go up.

    I suspect that is the choking effect mentioned and talked about as limiting RPM.

    Porting is a a game changer of course.

    I threw a Typhoon EFI intake on my 1/2 million mile E6 head longblock that has a mild old SD friendly cam that was a flash in the pan in the mid 80’s before MAF Systems and MAF conversions became the solution for “better” cams. My results pleased me

    The stock intake had had some port work done in the past that helped my car run a touch better than expected. Stock headers hogged out and welded back... old school stuff. But it was still all done before 5300. I swapped on a 65MM throttle body and EGR spacer and went to 1 5/8 BBK equal shorties and got it to where it peaked at 5600-5700. It would hit a bit of a wall at 5800. Was fast with that setup - 163 on GPS was the car’s terminal velocity in 4th gear. It would continue pulling in 5th. I backed out at 177 with quite a bit more to go but I needed to slow down.

    With the Typhoon EFI my worn out old car is more than happy to hit the rev limiter if you’re not paying attention. Woke it up in the upper RPM range big time. I lost a little torque from idle to 1500 but not much


    there are a lot of factors that make up a good or bad combo. And we all know when we’ve experienced an unexpected setup or a truly great combo
    Last edited by erratic50; 03-09-2019 at 02:37 PM.

  5. #55
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Your right. Even Ford hand modified the intake runners on some.




    Initially, for 1993 and the return of the GT Falcon, the Australian GT's and XR8 Sprints got a Showa GT40 Tubular intake that was not made in USA, and it had a half inch spacer. Much latter on cars got factory Y303 GT40 alloy heads from Fall 1999 to Spring 2001, but it was withdrawn after the 500 or so heads emptied from the imported stockpiles, and except for the 65 pound weigh saving, there was no HP gain with them as CFM and spark ramps stayed the same.

    The first Windsor "Fuelie" in Australia to make 295 hp did so with iron GT40P's, and so did the 335 hp 5.6.

    The croosover point for a mildly modified upper and lower in the stock configuration was about 305 hp, and that was right where the first prototype 1991 EA Falcon GT 351 landed after Jack Roush did the emissions work.

    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy View Post
    .....Jack Roush from 1988 to 1994, had been playing with the 5.8 spec, starting with the 375 hp twin turbo 351w for the 25 Aniversary Mustang,




    then sending a engine overseas in Australia. It was a 1990 EA Ford Falcon 351 GT development 'hack'








    which was suposed to be written off. Instead, it is proof of just what Jack was up to for the Ford motorcompany world wide.



    Windsor 5.8L 351 CID V8
    305 hp, 350 lb-ft
    0-62 mph - 7.3 seconds
    Standing 1/4 mile - 15.4 seconds after factory emiisions and durability test 50 000 miles. The engine was way down on power, and was on LTD rims with 205 65 15 tires in a 3500 pound car. ...



    Oh twas easier with our little closed chamber 4bbl 4.9 Cleveland in your dads old Fairmont GXL, Ghia, or F truck.....

    Edelbrock intake

    351 crank and rods


    A carb you could understand


    A set of headers, valve springs and CC268 or Crower Streat Heat cam, and your old 9.4:1 188 to 207 hp 5 liter Cleveland suddenly became a 375 hp 10.7: 1 compression 351 C 2V engine that still ran on leaded 97 Super like we had.

    No 4V heads, no open chamber heads, just the right mods.

  6. #56
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    I wouldn’t trade my EFI for a carb.

    but I will build a monster 353 cid stroker topped with Edelbrock AL heads and an Air Gap intake, custom cam, and a carb, etc.

    For this particular setup I believe the 93 Cobra tune will do well

    And I think you will be very pleased with the results.

    I have a 93 Cobra ECU here in Omaha. It’s not for sale but if you want to know what your car will do with one I do make it up to the Minneapolis area frequently. Heck, I’ll be there Monday to be honest.
    Last edited by erratic50; 03-09-2019 at 05:36 PM.

  7. #57
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erratic50 View Post
    I wouldn’t trade my EFI for a carb.

    but I will build a monster 353 cid stroker topped with Edelbrock AL heads and an Air Gap intake, custom cam, and a carb, etc.

    For this particular setup I believe the 93 Cobra tune will do well

    And I think you will be very pleased with the results.

    I have a 93 Cobra ECU here in Omaha. It’s not for sale but if you want to know what your car will do with one I do make it up to the Minneapolis area frequently. Heck, I’ll be there Monday to be honest.
    Its true. The thing is the last 5.0's with the F1ZE 6250 AIA cam, 9.4:1 comp, 70 mm throttle body, were really nice at those crazy 5500 to 6250 rpms.



    http://australiancar.reviews/Ford_Windsor_V8.php
    http://australiancar.reviews/Tickford_V8_Engine.php

    The Cleveland heads and intake flow as a package are right at the same combination CFM, but consume many more pounds of gas making the same horsepower.

    The Windsor 5.0 by 2001 had the benefit of 30 years of intense development work since the last Boss 302.

    And the base maps and engine options for a 5.0 will always make it a better long term prospect.

  8. #58
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    There’s something to be said for good combos.

    I once rode in an 8 second 68 Mustang a long time ago. It was a dual quad highrise 351C based stroker with 4V heads that had air dams in the outrageously huge intake ports. High compression. Huge cam, solids, stroker rotating assembly.

    $100 taped to the dash. Ol Wayne looked at me and said if you can grab it while I’m on it you can have it. I think he said it had 4.11 gears in a spoiled 9”. Built old toploader 4 speed with some trick synchros in it. He left at 8500, shifted at 9000. My body never left the crushing feeling of being sent to the back seat until he lifted. Speedometer was buried at the drop of a hat, shift light was glowing when he backed out of it. Was something.

    I can only guess on power output and imagibe what it would it would have done with 2 big kits of NOS yet too. Probably easy 7’s.

    But unstreetable and no fun to drive at anything but WOT

  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by erratic50 View Post
    I wouldn’t trade my EFI for a carb.

    but I will build a monster 353 cid stroker topped with Edelbrock AL heads and an Air Gap intake, custom cam, and a carb, etc.

    For this particular setup I believe the 93 Cobra tune will do well

    And I think you will be very pleased with the results.

    I have a 93 Cobra ECU here in Omaha. It’s not for sale but if you want to know what your car will do with one I do make it up to the Minneapolis area frequently. Heck, I’ll be there Monday to be honest.
    Thanks! That's nice of you! I'm a long ways out from needing it now. I'll keep that in mind!

    Hey, it might be cool to meet up otherwise if you want too.

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  10. #60
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Yes, for sure! It will be a bit of a flying run this time around, but I’m definitely interested in getting together sometime.

    will have to keep in mind that you’re in that area

    I catch up with Shane (2ndChanceCobra) every now and then when I drive from Omaha to Minneapolis.

    This time around it’s Omaha —> Minneapolis —> St Louis —> Chicago —> Home.... all by Wednesday night

    End of the fiscal year at my work this month and I’m in the hunt maybe eek out making my quota somehow. Maybe.
    Last edited by erratic50; 03-09-2019 at 11:26 PM.

  11. #61
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    I've just sorted your air flow problems with EECIV.


    Keep the stock 5.0 EFI parts, but add the Cleveland heads and Boss 302 intake.


    4bbl Boss 302 intake, 351C 2V heads, and EECIV with EFI rails on the Iintake.

    Quote Originally Posted by 87-turbo View Post
    just put in a 351c 2bbl heads ported and 4bbl valves. cam, intake, built aod, 2600 stall, 4.10 gear, 28x11.5 et sreets, i have replaced all suspention components. coil over front, tube k member, 11" turbo coupe brakes, 31 spline strange axles, c-clip elim, tube control arms.


    Remember the 460 EFi unit?

    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy View Post
    ......EFI is better. A Twin Scorpion tail EFI 1993-1996 460 system would be insane with a 4" hood.


    Its a sensational system






    See http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/11...onversion.html

  12. #62

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    That is really cool! While I'm at it, why not go to a 460? Oh wait... I don't like holes in the hood, so I guess that's out.

    Erratic, it might be best for me at least if we wait until the school year is out at least anyway.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  13. #63

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    Brad,

    BAMA can't or won't turn off any emissions functions because that is a violation of the federal clean air act. Huge fines for doing that.

    When you install a factory MAF, make sure to keep all of the upstream hardware and plumbing. This includes the screen at the beginning of the MAF. Its job is to straighten out the airflow and help reduce reversion. The MAF measures airflow in both directions. It has no way of knowing which direction the air is going. It just knows how much current is needed to keep the sensor at a constant temperature. When a cam with more overlap is used, there is reversion. This means that at some combinations of load and throttle angle, airflow will go out of the intake manifold and back through the MAF.

    Additionally, because the MAF is sampling a small portion of the air coming down the tube in front of it. you can't change anything upstream of it. If you do this, you may not affect what the total airflow through the inlet tube is, but you WILL affect what percentage of that air goes through the sampling tube to the sensor. When that percentage is changed, the MAF is going to report an incorrect airflow to the EECIV.

    This includes changing the air filter. Use a stock airbox that was originally used on the MAF application.

    All of the above reasons are why many tuners don't want to touch aftermarket MAF sensors. It takes a couple hours of dyno time to determine the MAF's transfer function. This is absolutely impossible to do by remote or calculation.

    If you use the 70mm Cobra MAF with an A9P, that will work fine. The tuner just needs to copy the MAF transfer function into the A9P. Since this transfer function is 100% known, everything will work fine.

    If the I/O of the ECM are properly setup, there is barely any tuning that needs to be done to correct for changes in the camshaft. If the MAF is setup correctly, there won't be a lot of reversion. The camshaft is not going to affect the a/f ratio at all when the MAF system is operating correctly. The spark timing versus load and rpm does need to be adjusted because the engines dynamic compression ratio curve has changed from the camshaft. This can be estimated, but it really needs to be done through datalogging and a couple rounds of updates.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  14. #64

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    Crazy, I didn't know that about needing everything to remain in place. But that IS one of the things I really like about the Fox era Cobra MAF is it uses all the same parts around it as other 5.0Ls.



    I currently have the stock cold air setup, which I think looks better than any aftermarket one, and even bought myself the silencer last year to install.



    I had been running a K&N drop-in, but I'm not married to it. I forget to clean it enough that it probably doesn't help anything.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  15. #65
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Silencer is among the first things that needs to stay in the trunk or on the shelf where it belongs if you want this monster to run hard.

  16. #66
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    The case of the lost Ponies was trashed out in Xmas 1992 in Australia. The Aussie V8 production was always pre-production of the next years engines with pilot build parts. That ment, in 1967, the 225 hp gross 289 was a 1968 engine, and the 230 hp gross 302, a J code 1969 engine.


    Sadly, Brad, this is the nature of modern EFi or Independent Runner V8 carbed engines.

    Example:-

    In 1992, the 25 Th Anniversary EB Falcon GT sedan engine was 1993 Mustang Cobra engine, but its cam and heads were sourced preproduction from the SVO catalogue, and hot tested at Fords Watson Engineerings Q1 certified assembly plant. In any case, the Automatic version had a 126 to 130 mph fuel cutoff, and a different kind of EECIV mapping, with any over tightnened upstream goosenecks suddenly ripping out maybee 29 hp from the normal 266 to 274 net hp rating. That is what happened when a preproduction 4 speed AOD Falcon GT failed to break the 16 second barrier and the 130 mph mark, when the stock T5 did 142 mph, top speed and a 15.3 second quarter with 3628 pounds to pull around.

    The divergence from a great performance to a slower than stock 225 hp 5.0 1/4 mile time was clear. And it was all based on a leak in the MAF sensor gooseneck bracket according to Tickfords David Flint.

    Sorry for the metrics, but its an epic read of what actually happened with the imported 1993 Cobra Mustang engine used in the Australian made Ford sedan.

    kw to hp conversion, kw x 0.7456 = Hp
    km/h to mph conversion, km/h /1.60934 = mph
    kg to lb conversion, kg /2.2046223 = lb

    http://arc.bauer.x-cago.net/vw/editi...1-012-19921201

    The whole magazine http://arc.bauer.x-cago.net/vw/editi...pub=WHL&dp=WHL

    This loss of horspower excerise is a Tickford institution, when the same thing happened with the press AMV8 Vantage in the late 1977 Motor magazine car test. It blew up an axle, and then got crashed. Twice. Its okay, it was just a converted pre-production Vantage...

    Back then, no-one knew the four Weber 48 IDF2/100 carbed engine made 390 hp net (Aston Martion never reported horspower readings, just like Rolls Royce. But the West German TUV required them for registration purposes, so DIN net figures were retrospectively released ex Germany in 1981 for everyone to know. The same agency, Tickford, did DIN net hp readings for the 5.0 Cobra engine used in the 1992 EB Falcon. It was the same dyno used in the 1977 Jermey Sinek Motor test I read as a young 12 year old in 1982)

    In 1977, the Newport Pagnel chassis dyno showed the 14 second 1977 Fred Waters engine was 37 hp down on power at the flywheel, only making 353 hp net. That a 3858 pound car can still do 167 mph and 0-100 mph in 13.2 seconds with an engine missing 37 hp is an example of how tempremental high hp engines can be.

    Source:SUPERCARS OF THE SEVENTIES Jeremy Sinek Publication Date: 1982


  17. #67

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    Brad,

    Dumping the air intake silencer (Helmholtz resonator) won't mess up the MAF transfer function at all. This part is located before the air cleaner. I doubt that the K&N panel air filter will hurt the MAF transfer function because the filter has the same geometry as OEM.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  18. #68

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    Thanks!

    I do like the idea of running the silencer to help tame the car's unrefined personality. But, if it's going to rob me of THIRTY horsepower, I guess it's worth reconsidering.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  19. #69
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Keep in mind that a stock 5.0L picks up a bunch of power and RPM range simply by ditching the resonator.

  20. #70

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    It's no way thirty horse on a stock 5.0. Maybe 10, if you add a K&N while you are at it and that's probably optimistic.

  21. #71
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4eyedblind View Post
    It's no way thirty horse on a stock 5.0. Maybe 10, if you add a K&N while you are at it and that's probably optimistic.
    It is nothing to lose 30 hp from the factory SAE J1349® Net Certified Power rating if you move from stock. The article I posted is proof, and it explained how both a 1992 Ford with a Ford Mustang Cobra engine making 274 hp flywheel could suddenly make only 245 hp flywheel. That's why Ford downgraded the ratings on the Mustang in 1993, as actual required dressings, Cold and Fresh Air systems, exhaust systems, or cold light off runs before the O2 sensor kicks in can be higher. Even a fan clutch could wind off 4 hp.

    Most losses are accidental, due to leaks around the MAF sensor. Ford Australia from that 1992/1993 issue quoted David Flint, Tickfords engineer who also worked on the 1978 Aston Martin V8 Vantage project, and that car lost 37 hp just from excess backpressure in a factory exhaust system. He'd Been There, Done That, and the press fall out was a cinch to manage, because you've got to quantify the effect.

    I'll bet people wondered why a certain 1970 455 Firebird HO was rated 35 hp differently to a 455 GTO Judge even though it was the same engine. Lead tabs in the secondary bores of the carb. In 1970, it was insurance. [The difference between the GTO and Firebird engines was that the secondary carburetor's throttle linkage had a restrictor which prevented the rear barrels from opening completely, adjusting the linkage could allow full carburetor operation resulting in identical engine performance]

    You broke the lead tabs, and you were back with 370 hp in a 3350 pound car to beat the greater than 0.1 hp per pound insurance kick in.

    In 1992, the rating was really that simple. Just production variances on an EFi engine. The DIN Net rating of a 1993 Cobra engine was 266-274 hp, with 8 hp varinace normal, and another 5 hp off for SAE net. Ford internal J1349 net was 235 for the US Cobra.

    Crap happens. An modern EFi engine is a lot more complicated that people realise.

  22. #72

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    That's alot of words man and I can guarantee you this isn't my first day. The bottom line is no one has pulled off the snorkel on an 87-93 Mustang and picked up 30 horses and you damn well know that's what I mean.

  23. #73
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    The bonus was in moving up the rev range slightly and greatly increasing torque production across the rev range

    What shows the jump is 1/4 mile time improvements of a stock 5.0L EFI car vs one that has had the intake silencer removed and had the timing advanced. Bonus points for a better air filter.

    My rule of thumb has always been
    SD 86 - (E6 heads) advance to 13.5
    SD 87-88 - advance to 14
    MAF 89-90 A9L advance to 14.5 (my experience anyway)
    MAF 93 Cobra - advance to 15 due to softer advance curve programmed I

    mileage varies, some handle 15.5 or even 16, but the above is the rule of thumb Ive always followed without blowing head gaskets or anything like that.

    premuim fuel only of course

    some tunes / ECU codes being on the dyno showed vastly different results than others ..... same happened when the Saleen race team moved on from the 86 SD cars into the 87 and later and ultimately into MAF based setups

    certain ECUs are better

    Dont believe in the old driveway tuneup, don’t run it I guess.
    Last edited by erratic50; 03-27-2019 at 10:18 PM.

  24. #74

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    I'm hearing a lot of "your results may vary".

    All the more reason to have it tuned on a dyno, I guess.

    Y'know, slight side track., but I've been wondering if I should run premium all the time for no other reason than the ethanol in 87. I guess my shortblock and heads both have some slight increases in compression baked in too, so that's a thing as well.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  25. #75
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4eyedblind View Post
    That's alot of words man and I can guarantee you this isn't my first day. The bottom line is no one has pulled off the snorkel on an 87-93 Mustang and picked up 30 horses and you damn well know that's what I mean.
    Your right, 4eyedblind.


    Sorry that your point was missed by my speal.



    I guess I am saying that you can loose 30 hp, though.

    And that's kinda where EFi is, and always has been, historically.



    Not my words.

    26 year old History.


    All I know is that its nothing to drop 30 hp by just overtightening a 50 cent resonator clasp.

    266 to 274 hp and 15.3 second quarter miles, to less performance than the stock 225 hp 5.0. Clearly, a 1 second 1/4 mile ET loss is more than just 20 hp.

    According to the inferred info from David Flint, the loss was up to 24 hp (10%) due to lean WOT air fuel.

    I can do it in a few turns of a flat head screw.



    Page 14 Jan 1993.




    ref



    Some specfic parts were different, but the engine block was the same, the heads, cam and intake were the same, just reversed like it was on the Bank fire 5 and 5.8 liter trucks and the Panther 5.0 Crown Vic's and Gran Marq's


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