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  1. #26
    FEP Power Member 85stanggt's Avatar
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    Question for the crowd:

    Can I just unbolt the headers and slip the heads off or do I have to remove the headers? Looks like if unbolt them, I may have enough give to separate them from the heads enough to not be in the way?

    Sorry for the noob question...
    Last edited by 85stanggt; 01-05-2020 at 03:43 PM.
    1985 Mustang GT Convertible
    Stock and original @ 213k, except for dynomax ultraflos.

  2. #27
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    There are cheats to this, but generally, You cannot do both head gasket properly without dropping the headers.

    The block deck must be fastidiously clean, and often the EGR needs cleaning and a whole host of other checks need to be done.

    Crack testing with magnaflux is advised, which is a full clean and replace. Valve stem seals replaced, and drop the valve springs, check tension, then if there is no valve guide wear, grab some good gaskets, and you good to go.

    Modern rebuilds focus on generating glass smooth head gasket surfaces. It has been dropping from peak/ridge to hollow/trough from 80 RA in the early 80's to about 18 RA now.

    Your stock Ford machining, if cleaned, should be able to take an MLS replacement gasket, but you have to clean the trough to ridge areas with a plastic brush and make sure its cleared up. You won't do that without removing the headers and EGR stuff.


  3. #28
    FEP Power Member 85stanggt's Avatar
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    Forgive my ignorance...I'm a real novice with some of these terms...

    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy View Post
    There are cheats to this, but generally, You cannot do both head gasket properly without dropping the headers.

    The block deck must be fastidiously clean, and often the EGR needs cleaning and a whole host of other checks need to be done.

    Crack testing with magnaflux is advised, which is a full clean and replace. Valve stem seals replaced, and drop the valve springs, check tension, then if there is no valve guide wear, grab some good gaskets, and you good to go.
    What do you mean by "Crack testing with magnaflux is advised, which is a full clean and replace."

    Also, it was advised by some on here that since I didn't have any major issues with running to just replace the gasket and go. I wasn't going to get into reworking the heads, but if that is advised, I can bring them to a machine shop or do it myself with some direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy View Post
    Modern rebuilds focus on generating glass smooth head gasket surfaces. It has been dropping from peak/ridge to hollow/trough from 80 RA in the early 80's to about 18 RA now.

    Your stock Ford machining, if cleaned, should be able to take an MLS replacement gasket, but you have to clean the trough to ridge areas with a plastic brush and make sure its cleared up. You won't do that without removing the headers and EGR stuff.
    What is the "trough to ridge areas"? Is that your second picture?

    For my EGR, I just have a block on my intake manifold. There are no other exhaust connections for the EGR...are you referring to a different year 5.0?


    I had bought these scrapers a while back, which work fantastically well: http://www.carbideprocessors.com/sup...rnational-ss1/

    They work incredibly well for cleaning gasket surfaces due to the precision carbide edge machined on the tip. Is this too aggressive for cleaning the block deck and heads?
    1985 Mustang GT Convertible
    Stock and original @ 213k, except for dynomax ultraflos.

  4. #29

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    I have done this to MANY 5.0s, I've yet to find one cracked. If the engine hasn't been overheated heavily, it's incredibly unlikely. The iron in these thinwall blocks in the 85+ 5.0s is amazingly robust.

    Just clean the deck thoroughly with scotchbrite pads, check for flat with a straightedge and put the heads on. It's tough to do this without at least pivoting the headers away from the heads.

  5. #30
    FEP Power Member 85stanggt's Avatar
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    Another question, how do I remove the A/C compressor bracket from the head? I see a bolt and then a long stud sticking out that the power steering pump hangs on. Does this long stud need to be removed and how?









    This was earlier





    This is where I'm leaving off for the night. Got everything off, including the A/C compressor, except I'm going to leave it in its comfy place until I'm ready to actually remove the heads. I'm working slow as you can tell.








    I've decided I'm going to do some more work while I'm in this deep like rebuild the power steering pump with new o-rings, replace the low pressure power steering lines from the cooler, and replace the hard fuel line since the flare nuts are beginning to get rounded.
    1985 Mustang GT Convertible
    Stock and original @ 213k, except for dynomax ultraflos.

  6. #31
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Progress

  7. #32

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    Progress indeed! I've been this deep in a few times myself. A couple of pointers if you haven't thought of them yet.

    You can hang the AC compressor from a bungie cord from the hood on the passenger side. Otherwise it will be in the way of everything. Distributor will have to come out. Make sure you have the engine at top dead center on the compression stroke. Rotor should be pointing at #1 spark plug wire post (about 2 o'clock when looking down on the dizzy.) Can also check by rocker arm position when the valve covers are off. Mark the housing. Being off one tooth one way or the other is easy to do.

    Headers don't have to be removed but you will need to pull them aside.
    W

    As always, "It ain't what you don't know that gets you, it's what you think you know that just ain't so."

  8. #33
    FEP Power Member 85stanggt's Avatar
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    I actually was able to easily set the compressor on that orange mat on top of the radiator support. I'm afraid of moving it over much more than that, as I don't want to cause a leak in the old lines.

    1) Was going to line the dizzy up to TDC #1, but there's a plastic notch on the lower distributor cap itself that I lined the rotor up to. That should serve as a good guide to get the distributor back into place properly. However if the engine moves or has to move that could be a problem. It's probably better to set it to TDC?

    2) When you say headers don't have to be removed, but pull them to the side, do I need to unbolt the headers from the downpipes or is there enough flex in everything to pull them to the side? I have those bolts soaking in PB blaster right now. I'm afraid of the can of worms I will open trying to remove them...

    3) How do I get the compressor bracket in my pics above off the driver's side head? It looks like that long stud goes into the head. Maybe it just looks that way, but am I missing something with this?

    4) The Ford manual says to loosen the rocker bolts, and turn the rockers to the side to free them from the push rods. What about the valves that are compressed due to the lift of the cam at the current engine position? Are you supposed to rotate the engine off that valve, loosen it, and the rotate back to TDC?

    5) Also, can someone advise on whether the super scraper I linked to above is an acceptable scraper to remove gunk and gasket or too aggressive? I've tried plastic scrapers, but they leave a lot of stuff left. I don't like razor blades, because the corners catch and gouge easily.


    Thanks for all the advice. Next steps are to pull the headers, dizzy, intake, valve covers, and then heads.
    Last edited by 85stanggt; 01-06-2020 at 07:43 PM.
    1985 Mustang GT Convertible
    Stock and original @ 213k, except for dynomax ultraflos.

  9. #34
    FEP Senior Member Tigger's Avatar
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    Do you really have to remove the ac bracket it or can you take the bracket off with the head?

    If I remember correctly, the long stud does go thru into the head. It screws into the plug for the smog ports. You should be able to take 2-3 nuts and ram them all together and remove the stud from the head. That is what I did to mine long with some heat.
    67 Mustang Coupe
    96 Tangerine GT
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  10. #35

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    Put two nuts on the long stud coming out of the cylinder head. I think that the stud is 7/16"-14. Lock the two nuts together with two wrenches really tight. Put a wrench on the nut closest to the head. Turn this nut CCW. The stud will unscrew from the head. This technique is generally referred to as "double nutting". There is one more bolt on the inboard side of the aluminum bracket holding it to the head. In total, there is one bolt and two studs holding it on.

    I would not use an MLS gasket. The surface has to be very clean and smooth to work, plus with an MLS gasket there is no fuse. If the combustion pressure gets too high, something has to give. I would rather have the gasket blow, then have the block crack or the rod bend. I would use an OEM graphite head gasket. These can still take quite a bit of combustion pressure and will seal well on almost any deck surface. If you used these with a supercharger and 12 psi of boost, they would blow with just a little bit of detonation, but if the engine is going to be NA, then you will be fine.

    I would unbolt the headers from the h-pipe so that you can move them all the way against the strut towers. Wire them out of the way with SS wire. When installing the headers, use graphite gaskets. These will never leak and the header bolts will never fall out.

    You can unbolt all of the rocker arms without rotating the engine.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  11. #36

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    Also, cylinders 1, 3, 5 and 6 in your engine have coolant leaking into them. That is why the insulator is white and has no deposits on it. No engine with a carb can ever have plugs look this clean. If they are this clean, then there is water injection going on in the chamber cleaning them = coolant leak.

    I agree that there is no need to have the block magna fluxed. I would have the cylinder heads magna fluxed to check for cracks between the exhaust and intake valves. They do crack here. You will need to remove the valves and springs from the heads, so that the heads can be cleaned. It can be very difficult to see the small cracks between the intake and exhaust valves. Mark the valves, so they can be put back into the same chambers if you are not going to have the valve seats and valves ground. You might be able to get away with leaving the heads assembled, but using a SS toothbrush to vigorously clean the chambers between the valves and do a visual inspection.

    Once you pull the heads and gaskets off of the engine, immediately mark both of them as passenger and driver side. By looking at the gasket, you can see where it is blown, burned, leaking water, etc. You will then want to carefully inspect the block and head in the same spot for any causes to this damage on the gasket. You get to play detective at this point.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  12. #37

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    As far as getting the headers out of the way, the head locating dowels and the face of the exhaust ports are not parallel. So, when you lift the heads off the block you will be fighting the squeeze between the dowels and the headers. If you can get the header to down pipe bolts loose, it will be much easier. Otherwise you would be fighting the exhaust plumbing to get the heads clear. First side, second side will be easier. They don't have to be moved very far. When I put mine back together I had purchased Trick Flow aluminum heads. Makes lifting them back into place a lot easier.
    W

    As always, "It ain't what you don't know that gets you, it's what you think you know that just ain't so."

  13. #38
    FEP Power Member 85stanggt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hidley View Post
    Put two nuts on the long stud coming out of the cylinder head. I think that the stud is 7/16"-14. Lock the two nuts together with two wrenches really tight. Put a wrench on the nut closest to the head. Turn this nut CCW. The stud will unscrew from the head. This technique is generally referred to as "double nutting". There is one more bolt on the inboard side of the aluminum bracket holding it to the head. In total, there is one bolt and two studs holding it on.

    I would not use an MLS gasket. The surface has to be very clean and smooth to work, plus with an MLS gasket there is no fuse. If the combustion pressure gets too high, something has to give. I would rather have the gasket blow, then have the block crack or the rod bend. I would use an OEM graphite head gasket. These can still take quite a bit of combustion pressure and will seal well on almost any deck surface. If you used these with a supercharger and 12 psi of boost, they would blow with just a little bit of detonation, but if the engine is going to be NA, then you will be fine.

    I would unbolt the headers from the h-pipe so that you can move them all the way against the strut towers. Wire them out of the way with SS wire. When installing the headers, use graphite gaskets. These will never leak and the header bolts will never fall out.

    You can unbolt all of the rocker arms without rotating the engine.
    This is what I figured was the solution -- the two nuts. But I think I may just leave that on there as a nice handle to pull the head, unless you think it's going to be in the way.

    I bought graphite head gaskets, which is what's in this kit: https://lmr.com/item/M6051D50/Ford-R...stang-79-95-50

    Car is going to remain stock and original, so that should be plenty sufficient as you say.

    I have begun soaking the nuts of the header collectors with PB blaster and will attempt to remove them. I already have replacements on hand in case they are needed.

    Thanks for the tip on the rockers. For whatever reason, I was picturing some being under pressure from the lifters, but wasn't thinking how long the bolts are to relieve the pressure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hidley View Post
    Also, cylinders 1, 3, 5 and 6 in your engine have coolant leaking into them. That is why the insulator is white and has no deposits on it. No engine with a carb can ever have plugs look this clean. If they are this clean, then there is water injection going on in the chamber cleaning them = coolant leak.

    I agree that there is no need to have the block magna fluxed. I would have the cylinder heads magna fluxed to check for cracks between the exhaust and intake valves. They do crack here. You will need to remove the valves and springs from the heads, so that the heads can be cleaned. It can be very difficult to see the small cracks between the intake and exhaust valves. Mark the valves, so they can be put back into the same chambers if you are not going to have the valve seats and valves ground. You might be able to get away with leaving the heads assembled, but using a SS toothbrush to vigorously clean the chambers between the valves and do a visual inspection.

    Once you pull the heads and gaskets off of the engine, immediately mark both of them as passenger and driver side. By looking at the gasket, you can see where it is blown, burned, leaking water, etc. You will then want to carefully inspect the block and head in the same spot for any causes to this damage on the gasket. You get to play detective at this point.
    So interesting you mention the plugs. I was wondering why some looked so clean vs others, but how could coolant be getting into FOUR cylinders? And how would the car not have been overheating worse? Is this all from the heads lifting after my intake gasket job and torquing the intake down? I can't fathom how 4 cylinders would have that happen, especially torquing to specs. I do remember going through the torque sequence twice as the gaskets compressed. Maybe I shouldn't do that.

    I just watched a youtube video of magnafluxing. Very cool. That looks like something a machine shop would do, since I don't have a large AC magnet lol. Should I bring the heads to a machine shop? Sounds like it may be a good idea. They can magnaflux it, clean things up, and maybe replace the guides and seats for the valves. Please advise what I should do...I need the car running, but I'm not building a drag car. I just want to do it right and don't mind spending some money to make sure of that so I don't have to do this again. Again, sorry for all the ignorant questions...I've done a lot to cars, but never dealt with heads before.

    I'm interested to see the heads and gaskets after pulling them to see where this coolant is coming from, since it seems to be affecting so many cylinders on different heads.

    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamCapri View Post
    As far as getting the headers out of the way, the head locating dowels and the face of the exhaust ports are not parallel. So, when you lift the heads off the block you will be fighting the squeeze between the dowels and the headers. If you can get the header to down pipe bolts loose, it will be much easier. Otherwise you would be fighting the exhaust plumbing to get the heads clear. First side, second side will be easier. They don't have to be moved very far. When I put mine back together I had purchased Trick Flow aluminum heads. Makes lifting them back into place a lot easier.
    This is what I was wondering. Sounds much easier if I can get the headers separated from the down pipe.
    1985 Mustang GT Convertible
    Stock and original @ 213k, except for dynomax ultraflos.

  14. #39

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    It only requires a very small coolant leak into a cylinder for the steam from the coolant to keep the chamber clean. If the head gasket blows between cylinders 5 and 6, then coolant will leak into both cylinders. Once you get the heads off, by looking at the gaskets, combustion chambers and the face of the pistons, it will be very obvious which cylinders had water leaking into them and which didn't.

    When installing the intake manifold, you only want to torque the bolts down once. This is normally enough to keep the water ports from leaking. Again, use the OEM graphite gaskets for this. All of the aftermarket paper gaskets for this job are junk.

    When you take the heads to the machine shop, they will disassemble them, check the guides for wear and check the heads for cracks. If the guides don't have much wear (very little valve wiggle), then they could grind the face of the valves and the seats if needed. If the guides are worn much, then they need to replace them before grinding the valves and seats. Obviously replace the valve seals. I would avoid Teflon here. They always seem to fall off. Use Viton rubber if you can find them.

    If they do grind the valves, you may end up having to shim the rocker arms to get the lifter preload back to spec. This will depend on how much material they grind on the seats, valve faces and valve tips. Before they disassemble the heads, have them measure the valve tip height on all cylinders. Then measure the same dimension after all machining is done. That way, when you install the heads, you will know which cylinders need its rocker arms shimmed and by how much.

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m-6529-a302/
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  15. #40
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    I have never removed the distributor when doing head gaskets on a ford small block , only FE series , like 390 , 428 .
    clowns to the left of me , Jokers to the right

  16. #41

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    How do you get the intake back on without messing up the end gaskets or silicone?
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  17. #42

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    Its one bolt and all of 5 seconds once you have the engine all torn down.
    2 1986 cougars (both 4 eyed and 5.0)
    1 1987 cougar

  18. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hidley View Post
    How do you get the intake back on without messing up the end gaskets or silicone?
    You can put a couple of 5/16-18 studs into the top of the block to serve as guides when lowering the intake. It isn't that heavy that it is a problem. An iron intake would be another story. The end gaskets are usually cork and may need some trimming depending on the kit. I recommend silicone on both sides of these gaskets as the intake, being aluminum, will expand differently than the block and tend to push the gaskets out. My 302 was drooling oil down the back of the block because of that.
    W

    As always, "It ain't what you don't know that gets you, it's what you think you know that just ain't so."

  19. #44

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    William,

    I was referring to Ashley's comments about not removing the distributor when installing and removing the intake.

    With the distributor in place, I think it would be completely impossible to use studs to lower the intake straight down.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  20. #45
    FEP Power Member 85stanggt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hidley View Post
    It only requires a very small coolant leak into a cylinder for the steam from the coolant to keep the chamber clean. If the head gasket blows between cylinders 5 and 6, then coolant will leak into both cylinders. Once you get the heads off, by looking at the gaskets, combustion chambers and the face of the pistons, it will be very obvious which cylinders had water leaking into them and which didn't.

    When installing the intake manifold, you only want to torque the bolts down once. This is normally enough to keep the water ports from leaking. Again, use the OEM graphite gaskets for this. All of the aftermarket paper gaskets for this job are junk.

    When you take the heads to the machine shop, they will disassemble them, check the guides for wear and check the heads for cracks. If the guides don't have much wear (very little valve wiggle), then they could grind the face of the valves and the seats if needed. If the guides are worn much, then they need to replace them before grinding the valves and seats. Obviously replace the valve seals. I would avoid Teflon here. They always seem to fall off. Use Viton rubber if you can find them.

    If they do grind the valves, you may end up having to shim the rocker arms to get the lifter preload back to spec. This will depend on how much material they grind on the seats, valve faces and valve tips. Before they disassemble the heads, have them measure the valve tip height on all cylinders. Then measure the same dimension after all machining is done. That way, when you install the heads, you will know which cylinders need its rocker arms shimmed and by how much.

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m-6529-a302/
    I bought the good graphite intake gaskets with the silicone end seals. The same ones I bought for the last intake gasket job. I will torque only once.

    After reading the rest of your post regarding machine shop, grinding valves, and shimming things, how much would you rate the necessity I do all of that? Previously, others seemed to think to just get everything cleaned up, make sure the heads are straight, and slap it back together with new gaskets. The car ran great with zero issues and didn't burn much oil before all of this coolant issue came up. I think the head gasket leak(s) came from me replacing the intake gaskets and torquing the intake, which may have lifted the heads some.

    I could lap the valves and replace the seals while the heads are off. That may be sufficient enough for what I'm doing without rebuilding the lower end.

    I've been working a little each night after work. I pulled the headers (not as hard as I thought). I can have the heads off tonight if I don't fall asleep or tomorrow easily. The prospect of being done with this on the weekend is enticing, but not if I have to get the heads to a machine shop.

    Any advice on how realistically deep I have to go with the heads is appreciated. If I can do some basic stuff and put them back on, I will.
    1985 Mustang GT Convertible
    Stock and original @ 213k, except for dynomax ultraflos.

  21. #46

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    I think what you do to the heads should be determined by what shape they are in when you remove them. If they have over 100k on them, there is going to be some guide wear and seat recession. Not necessarily enough to warrant any machine work on the guides or valves.

    A valve spring compressor isn't that expensive. I would rent one so that you can pull the springs off. Then you can check the guide wear, valve faces and seat recession. If everything looks good, I would still take the heads and valves to a shop just to have them cleaned and checked for cracks. Then you can lap the valves and reassemble with new valve seals.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  22. #47
    FEP Power Member 85stanggt's Avatar
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    That all sounds reasonable. I was just watching some great youtube videos, and it became clear that the best thing to do is at least disassemble the valves to evaluate the seats and overall condition of things.

    Maybe a dumb question, but is there an order in which you should loosen the head bolts? I know there's a torque sequence for tightening them down, but some manufacturers also specify the order to remove them. Is it just opposite the torque down sequence?
    1985 Mustang GT Convertible
    Stock and original @ 213k, except for dynomax ultraflos.

  23. #48

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    As long as the engine is cool, which yours should be by now, it won't make any difference on a 302 with cast iron heads. It wouldn't hurt anything to loosen each bolt 1/4 turn at a time, from the outer bolts in. Reverse order of tightening them.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  24. #49

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    I tend to loosen them the opposite of the torquing procedure. Even though those E6’s are cast iron-I still prefer not to take any chances.
    Keep up the good work, you’re doing great!
    86 Capri-84 LTD a wagon-85 notch-86 notch

  25. #50
    FEP Power Member 85stanggt's Avatar
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    Ok started here today:



    After finish some work stuff, then started plugging away










    So there we have it. Driver's side head is off. First, I'm shocked how heavy they are. Second, I screwed up and didn't realize that the metal pipe for the heat riser valve was bolted to the back of the head. So I'm lifting and trying to pull this thing off the block, my back screaming for dear life, and I have to get it set back on the dowels to pull that damn bolt. Got that off and then pulled the head. Crap it is heavy.

    Next post is going to be some close up pictures, because I can't tell where a leak would have been. Everything is covered in coolant and oil. And I may have made things more difficult by having to set the head back on to get that bolt out the back.
    1985 Mustang GT Convertible
    Stock and original @ 213k, except for dynomax ultraflos.

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