Close



Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: 1999 fr500

  1. #1

    Default 1999 fr500

    That's right kids. It's time for another ZephyrEFI Random Ford Winter Boredom Discussion!! Yaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy

    Remember the 1999 FR500?

    Name:  fr500-mustang.jpg
Views: 576
Size:  24.2 KB

    https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...500-road-test/

    I mostly remember it as an ugly concept car that came with a fat steering wheel I really wanted. Here's the thing though. It sounds to me, in the article that it was always intended to be a build it yourself kind of deal. I know they came out with the steering wheel and wheels, but did the other items ever make it to the catalog?

    The biggest one I'm thinking of is the K-member that extends your wheelbase a whopping FIVE inches! As we know, it would bolt to any Fox/SN car. So are there a bunch of these kicking around that we just don't see? According to the article, it was a major improvement in ride and handling. 50/50 weight distribution. You'd think if they did come out, you'd hear about them all the time and they would be HIGHLY sought after. All those super nice magazine Fox builds would have them. I can only guess one of two things happened. 1) they never came out or 2) they did, but they are SO expensive most people just don't consider them, kind of like those SLA conversion kits. Or it could be one of those things that seem like a no-brainer for someone to come out with like Fox 5-lug drop spindles, yet no one has.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  2. #2

    Default

    I think the 99 threw 04 New edge is one of the best looking newer Mustang. I have a 2000 Saleen S281 along with my SVO.......I Love it.

  3. #3

    Default

    Have to agree. My first new car was a 2002 GT. What a proud day that was!

    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  4. #4
    FEP Super Member webestang's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    St. Louis, MO.
    Posts
    5,208

    Default

    I remember that car. I kinda did not like the front as it reminds me of something Honda would make.

    Quote Originally Posted by chads84svo View Post
    I think the 99 threw 04 New edge is one of the best looking newer Mustang. I have a 2000 Saleen S281 along with my SVO.......I Love it.
    I agree, even though my 99 coupe is a lowly V6 I still love the looks.

    Scotty
    1985 Fox Notch 4-banger Ranger tube header Eastwood Royal Blue
    1988 Fox LX 5.0 AOD Vert BBK 170mph speedo Candy Apple Red
    1999 Mustang Coupe V6 Auto Chrome Yellow -Daily Driver.
    Past Pony's.....
    68 Coupe Inline-6 3-Speed-Man. Primer
    78 II Hatch 302 3-Speed-Auto Sunroof Black
    81 4-Eye Coupe 4-Banger 4-Speed-Man. White

  5. #5
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Dunedin 9011, New Zealand, South Pacific
    Posts
    3,961

    Default

    Firstly, its face should be kinda like the Oct 96-Aug 98 EL Falcon and 89-95 MN12 Tbird, not having a grille was fine in those, but fr500 style, not so much. Not at all, IMHO.


    But instead, the FR500 is all 1989–91 4th generation Si Honda Civic and CRX again.



    You know, Like a Tesler....tell me Mr Anderson what good is a phone call if you are unable to speak.....




    Secondly, like the 1969 Ford Capri verses the 1968 Ford Escort, you can shift the whole X member forward and make any Fox at least 5" longer...since thats at least as much as was taken out in the original Fox design.


    The added 5 inches in the wheelbase, well...Its easier in the Fox than you might realise, because Ford designers were asked to pull the wheel to door/A pillar dimension close back, and there is a long space forward to allow a wheel base movement.


    Examples of how Ford patched in and out 5" willy nilly follow...


    Escort based Capri had 5" added in the front.

    Escort Mark I





    Capri Mark I





    For the almost 1969 Pinto, the steering gear for the rack and pinion was moved forward to ahead of the axle line to improve vehicle stabilty, just like the Cortina MkIII and TC Taunus. Early Escorts and Capris were also forward mounted steering box to stop them form being skatty.


    Mark II German Capri with a crossmember from a 2.3 V6...obviosly he has a LHD steering rack






    The Ford Fox rack and pinion steering is fundamentally stable, and premotes understeer. The old toe board mounted recirculating ball or the rack and pinion versions of it used by other companies (Nissan's 80's rear drives, Holden and GM's Commodore based cars) are chronic roll oversteer cars, with Nisan and Holden using some exceptional engineering to make those cars track well.


    The Fox frame and Bobcat/Mustang II all had a reversion back to the old Fox B1/80/100/5000/ Volvo 244/264 style truncated space between the door leading edge and wheel center line. This was proof postive on how savagely Lido Anthony "Lee" Iacocca invoked the Volvo 244/264 style Fox body shortened the front door to wheel center dimension.


    before removing 5"




    After removing 5"





    And that is the difference between the Fox body and everything else.




    The Fox based Type 85 which became the Quattro was exactly what Jac Talneck was asked to create for Lido in 1974 when the design hardpoints were frozen.





    You see it every time you splice a Fox or Mustang II part into a bigger Ford.


    When Ford moved from the X shell to the Pinto/Mustang II and then to the Fox platform (the S shell from 1982 onwards), they used the same hard dimensions from the 1966 Falcon /Fairlane/Mustang revision for inner catwalk and hood width, but drew the total car width inwards 4" by thining the gaurds. The A pillar to axle centerline was trucated a massive 5".

    The Fox 4 SN95 then pushed it back out 1-1/8" for safety, and handling and visual balance. The Fr500, still another 5 ", or 6-1/8" further from the door to axle center line.

    AND THATS WHERE THE POST 2005 TO DATE STANGS ARE NOW!



    With the Bobcat/Pinto, MustangII and Fox, the rack and pinion steering gear was British, and front mounted. The Chassis spacing between toe board and steering and the front wheels was varied by aout 4", with the Pinto/MustangII and Fox all shorterned between the A pillar and the front axle center line.

    When blending in the Mustang II or Fox IFS into any X shell, the engine mounts can be pushed right back this much (4" or more) from the stock V8/4 and V6 cylinder positions. Thats 4" or so. This means a stock Fox crossmember for an I4, V8, or V6 can be used to hold the Small six, without having to move the engine mounts forward.

    Funnily enough, the in line six engine mounts are 4-1/8" further forward than the V6, i4 and V8 Foxes.....




    In fact, the narrower 79 to 93 Mustang spring towers can be welded in, along with the cross member.

    Here's a 68 Torino (a 1966 Failane/Falcon underneath) with the 2004 SN 95 spring towers moved inwards with Maximim Motors narrow 78-86 Fox and 79-93 Mustang upper links, the narrow track size. The spring towers would weld in to an early Falcon, allowing the upper spring tower braces to be removed.


    Note how much further forward steering and engine mounts on the cross member is relative to the old X chassis.



    From https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...inTorino/page6

    In fact, the the I6 engine mounts vary in position on the block as well. Ford changed to Center percussion in the 1969 Mustangs, moving the engine mount forward.

  6. #6
    FEP Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Grand Rapids, MI
    Posts
    721

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ZephyrEFI View Post
    The biggest one I'm thinking of is the K-member that extends your wheelbase a whopping FIVE inches! As we know, it would bolt to any Fox/SN car.
    I think the biggest problem is this as stolen from the article you linked:
    Of course, now that your Mustang's front wheels jut forward like cats' paws clawing at the velvet drapes, the vehicle requires a new pair of fenders. No sweat. Grab the catalog again and simply specify the cool carbon-fiber quarter-panels, complete with new wheel-well liners.
    '89 XR-7 5 Speed
    '95 SC 5 Speed
    '91 Crown Vic P72 351W
    '97 Thunderbird
    '85 Ford LTD Squire

  7. #7

    Default

    I realize that, but people have done weirder (and stupider) things that would compensate for a change in wheel placement. How about that altered wheelbase gasser style Fairmont someone was building. Or how about how so many guys are just screwing fender flares onto the outside of their Fox fenders to fit wider wheels, like Detroit Muscle's ugly-ass Fox project.

    XC, all the different Foxes in your post made it more confusing than usual. Also, why the HELL would anyone graft the whonky Fox front suspension design into a car that didn't come with it?! THAT is stupid!
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  8. #8
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Dunedin 9011, New Zealand, South Pacific
    Posts
    3,961

    Default

    The Fox IFS isn't wonky. Its state of the art, just missing some anti dive. Its way, way ahead of the Mustang II IFS, and light years ahead of the gastly X shell IFS.

    Ford knew where it was heading with the latest cars, but a Modified MacPherson strut IFS is still pretty good.

    Front mounted rack and pinion is a great set up. The stock early 1965-1973 Mustang X shell IFS has very poor tracking control, and its not something that was ever any good in its basic design.

  9. #9
    FEP Member 86MustangGtRob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mississauga Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    432

    Default

    I always wished that they would of made the k member. I liked the on the fr500 they had rear upper lincoln ls control arms for the SLA.

  10. #10

    Default

    I'm certainly not implying the Falcon suspension is better. But the Fox front suspension is a b!tch to work on, and I hate it. So there.

    But doesn't it seem like guys can't swap out the original Fox design fast enough, what with c/c plates, coil-over conversions and such?

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  11. #11

    Default

    Name:  20180909_163058.jpg
Views: 478
Size:  178.9 KB My other kids....lol

  12. #12
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Dunedin 9011, New Zealand, South Pacific
    Posts
    3,961

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ZephyrEFI View Post
    I'm certainly not implying the Falcon suspension is better. But the Fox front suspension is a b!tch to work on, and I hate it. So there.

    But doesn't it seem like guys can't swap out the original Fox design fast enough, what with c/c plates, coil-over conversions and such?

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
    General Motors in Germany, Australia and America persisted with MacPherson strut in its original form.Ford USA decided on the hybridised system on the basis of cost and the need to tie the new rack and pinion steering gear into the existing unibody frame dimensions...it was tied in to the Bobcat and X shell hardpoints.By 2003, any Holden Commodore comparison showed up poor anti dive, but it was still okay as a performance system

    The last incarnation of the Fox car was the New Edge version of the SN95 Based Fox 4. Tested by a bunch of Antipodean magazines in IRS, 320 hp form, and it was more the chassis ridgity and dive under the Brembo brakes that was complained about. And most of the bad press was at high speed on a track. The Kiwi press, where our roads are chicanes, was pretty complementry. Mark Petch Autocar NZ Ford Mustang Cobra 2002 said it drove like it shared some forefathers from the same gene pool, but it was still pointed well.

    https://www.tradeuniquecars.com.au/f...-mustang-cobra

    David Morley at his most scathing on the SN99 New Edge:-

    The real brow-furrowing came when you gave the thing some stick. At high (race-track) speeds, the Mustang suffered from what felt like serious aerodynamic ineptitude. As the speedo got closer to 125 MPH, the brute’s nose would start to lift, the steering would go light(er) and she’d start to wander all over the place, using all the track, even in a straight-line. Had anybody at FoMoCo driven this thing at speed? It didn’t appear so.
    It was easier to put in coil over struts, but that system causes spring tower strength issues if really driven hard without a brace.

  13. #13
    FEP Power Member Jerry peachuer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Royal oak Mi
    Posts
    1,447

    Default

    Are you familiar with Bart's front suspension with that body style? There's a local guy running it and the car has a very long history of wins under its belt

    The car probably should be in a race museum of some sort.its a bolt on and some surgery to get it all put on but it's well sorted and it's competing and winning so that should say something

    It's a fr 500 with serious mods but can be still on street to some degree. I seen it at mustang Alley last year and the new owner is quite cool

    For fat steering wheel there's none better than the VR1 caddy which is foam fatty with the complemented driver seat
    That combo has to be driven to appreciate and may make its way behind a future project m

    Anyhow Bart's suspension is track proven and not sure how far off topic I took this but I never mean too
    Bart's suspension may get you where you want to go vs exotic k memeber you are inquiring about

  14. #14
    FEP Power Member Jerry peachuer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Royal oak Mi
    Posts
    1,447

    Default

    Cts v 18
    And typo (it's not ) fr500

  15. #15
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Dunedin 9011, New Zealand, South Pacific
    Posts
    3,961

    Default

    Barts Works SLA was sold through HPM Motorsports,
    M5LP 0205 02 Suspension Upgrade Front SLA Kit



    http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-t.../photo-03.html

    and Griggs SLA for SN95, 99'S and S197's.

    They were SLA systems, very much a blend of the old school X car Mustang coil over A-arm and modern Short Arm, Long Spindle. That it used an SN95 spindle (based on the 78 Modified Strut upright), well, that should show everyone how advanced Dearborns chassis engineering was in 1974-1978 when the Modified Strut was being perfected.

    The Griggs SLA's were set up as a proper and well researched summary US response to

    1. what Ford was doing in 1978,
    2. what the Fuhrmann and co Porsche did in 1977 with the "Safety first" Wiessach understeer promation geometry IRS verses coil over A arm 928 IFS,
    3. what Honda did with the second gen Prelude in 1983.


    Short arm long spindle was like an additional multiple link to a semi trailing arm IRS.

    Look at the racing Coil Over conversion to the 1984 Group A Mustang. SVO's Mike Kranfeus over saw this compition system, and it works really well




    Look at Griggs





    Some guys, like Ed Hunter, have sought to fit the whole SLA under the spring towers, which means you can shift it forward 6 inches without a spring tower.





    The stabilty under dive, and under switch backs is so much better with additional links, and it is a generation on from even the Group A coil over MacPherson strut. NVH and cost is then the next issue.

    Ford world wide was tending back towards earlier non modified MacPherson strut, but as Jackie Stewart found in 1980 to 1983, making a US car handle was more about sorting the parts, less about new fangled "over designing" it. As an experiment, the Board at FoMoCo let the Australian team go straight to the SLA late 1987 EA26 Falcon, which was an American and Australian effort that required Dearborn sign off. Dearborn then went SLA with the MN12 Tbird and Cougar. Before that, the X shells Coil over A arm system had shown resilliance, but under the new lighter weight High Strength Low Alloy steels, torsinal ridgity had plumeted, and the Aussie Blackwood series from 1979 to the last 1999 utility had shown a lack of dynamic stability under hard cornering. When Mibrook engineers did the yearly overseas and imported car dynamic testes, the most dynamically competent car in Australian history was not the new German based 1978- 1987 Commodore, but the 1980-1985 WB Statesman and Caprice, which benefited from 4 years of fettling from Peter Hanenburger. It used the ancient Bishops Kirby recirulating ball steering just like the 1969 Mustang, 1969 Camaro and F bird and Nova, and the Aussie Falcon, but the 79-87 Falcon simply didn't point as well, and was unstable through corners. All of it because of George Roberts*, ex USA Pontiac chassis engineer. The early Holdens were dogs, but the basic idea was sound...front mount the steering box, and give it more understeer, and allow the rear axle to roll over steer to compensate. It took the involvment of Hanenburger who's back ground was the De Dion axled Opel's and torque tube Chevette based T cars before working on the Antipodean Holdens, the V, J and older Sunbirds, Toranas and Kingswoods.

    The Germans (and later Nissan Motor Company with Hicas, which was forced into rear mount steering boxes) did it all the other way around, they dialed in over steer via rear end geometery, had a rear mounted steering gear, and thjen had to re set the semi trailing arm or multi link IRS to promote understeer as the car turned. I have a Nissan Stagea Four Wheel drive, and have driven a 928. Both have the same kind of feel, and in a setting down here of winter ice and tight radius 1320 feet compund curves, those cars show absolute dynamic excellence considering what is wrong with the fundamentals. They show different ways of promting safety on the limit. The Fox Mustang with TRX's is simarly benign under evasive action, despite how the 5.0 might axle tramp, its an understeer on entry, transition to over steer car. The ackerman improvemtn and higher geared steering and axle location improvments fro 1984.5 to 1987 made it an exceptionally good ecomomy spaorts car. The Fox Mustang and Holden Commodore and the revised second series EA Falcon showed that Ford USA and GM Holden's proving ground engineers decided to promote understeer in other ways, but they were on the same page. Front suspension and front engined rear drive cars don't always have the best steering gear location, and the way the roll centers and steering geometery are set governs evasive action handling.

    *Less understood, was the George Roberts and Peter Hanenberger era of Radial Tuned Suspension Holdens which had the front mounted recirculating ball IFS cars steering better than Jaguars and new Holden Commodores with Mustang style TRW rack and pinion steering. Fords Falcon kept rear mount, behind the axle line steering. The front steering box gives a caster effect which promotes understeer and stability, while the rear mounted steering box promotes oversteer. German cars roll over steer was a result of semi traling arm IRS, and rear mounted steering gear with often, very simple pure MacPherson strus or Coil over A arm systems. Despite the depth of engineering in Germany, it was General Motors , the Americans and Australians under Wayne Cherry, Peter Haneberger and George Roberts who skulked around and experiemented with understeer promoting IFS systems.

  16. #16
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Dunedin 9011, New Zealand, South Pacific
    Posts
    3,961

    Default

    Moving the K member forward 1 inch started with the SN95, for crash safety and balance. For the FR500, it was moved a further 5 inches forward.

    If you got any pre Fox 4, a fabricated K member can be easily moved forward a whole 6 inches on a 1978 to 1993 Mustang.

    All that shows you is how much the suspension was shifted towards the passenger safety cell in 1978. Remember the European Capri above. Its strut IFS was moved forward 5 inches to create that 65 Mustang long hood Pony car look.

    The Barts/Agent 47 SLA stuff was just another progression.



    Fords New Edge was a follow on from Cab Forward, the Prelude, Civic and Accord era of no big hood Hondas. That has kind of died as cars move to the high hip line, no Trunk Pre 49er Doggie and Socar Mom MPV and Cross Overs.

    It looks like the prospect of a V10 Mustang must have pushed the longer wheel base S197 and S550 into the field, and that FR500 was the start of it.

    I like it as a return to the Classic old long hood MustFang. Just hate the eyes without a face styling of the grill-less front.

    The suspension kit and ideas were way ahead of the game. Good job Ford Guys.

    You know, it lookes to me a Big Block Lima 385 or Mod V10 Fox with full headers not hitting any spring towers is possible with the aftermarket SLA's! Just not sure if there is enough full bump travel, but frame rails often have to be beefed up due to rust, so a full suspension upgrade with these kits would be exceptional if you could cut and shut the front clip to suit wheel arches 5 to maybee 6" further forward.

    The Mustang II kit was being used for X body Fords with 32 Valve 4.6's, 5.0's and 5.4's. Lookes like a whole new door is opening for an uncompromised street and race rear drive FoxStang.

  17. #17
    FEP Power Member Jerry peachuer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Royal oak Mi
    Posts
    1,447

    Default

    Good info above xctasy
    The car setup In speaking about is a retired race car everyone will know if I typed it . it's now a 427 or so ci rear mount turbo car with big oil cooler reservoir where passenger seat is which may be getting removed and repositioned for passenger seat to take passenger on a hot lap

    The new owner does race the car and pretty much can turn it in a intersection type of turn at 60-70mph with no hesitation (90 degree turn)

    The car is a masterpiece but it's racecar and it sports the Bart works front suspension on sn95 chassis

    Wish I could post a pic or 2 of it but reached max limit

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •