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  1. #1

    Default 1985 v6 to 302 swap will the c5 still work

    doing the swap on a 85 convertible I have and was hoping the c5/torque convertor will
    still bolt up and trans mount location is the same. I will be swapping in a dble hump
    crossmember

    I know the trans is not strong enough but plan on babying it till I build a c4
    1985 v6 vert
    1996 F150 SLYTNING
    1967 F100

  2. #2
    FEP Power Member Broncojunkie's Avatar
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    I'm certainly no expert when it comes to the slush boxes, but a buddy of mine is. He built my c5 into c4 specs with other upgrades.

  3. #3

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    Everything will bolt up. A C5 is just a C4 with a lockup torque converter and some internal valve body changes. If it's off a six I don't know what imbalance the flexplate has but, make sure you get one the same as your engine.

    You can easily build up a C5 to be healthy, because of its similarity to the c4.

  4. #4

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    good deal thanks
    1985 v6 vert
    1996 F150 SLYTNING
    1967 F100

  5. #5
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    Is there a difference between a V6 K member and a V8? I'm thinking that the four cylinders K members were the same as a V8 but not a V6.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by dynodon64 View Post
    Is there a difference between a V6 K member and a V8? I'm thinking that the four cylinders K members were the same as a V8 but not a V6.
    V6 has the same k-member as a 4 and V8. Early '80's straight 6's had different k-member.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  7. #7

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    Quick82,

    As 4eyedblind posted, a C5 is a C4 with a lockup torque convertor and a different valve body. I'll be bolting a V8 into my original 3.8L V6 '86 convertible, with the car's C5, and with a V8's 164-tooth flex plate. All I still want to verify to be absolutely certain is the torque convertor's bolt circle... I think it's 11-1/2"...
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  8. #8

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    Anyone know an easy way to link the kickdown on c5 to 5.0 throttle linkeage??

  9. #9
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atengnr View Post
    Anyone know an easy way to link the kickdown on c5 to 5.0 throttle linkeage??

    This is only related to the CFi 5.0 or a 4 or 2-bbl carb 5.0.


    Use the stock Upper AOD rod link as a kickdown rod.

    The C5 and AOD used the same excellent rod operated upper pivot point that you have to adapt to the 4180C 4-BBL via a CFI/VV7200 or Autolite 2100/4300/4350 or Motorcraft 2150 linkage.

    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy View Post
    The early 1980-1984 AOD's in Fox long wheelbase cars were shifter with a C4/C5 type rod kickdown linkage, which now functioned as a Throttle valve.

    The Motorcraft 2150 equipped 2-bbl,
    CFI 2-bbl and
    Motorcraft 7200 Variable Venturi all ran AOD passing Throttle Valve linkages or cables.

    The Lokar system duplicates them for a cable and for Holley 2300 2-bbl and 4150/4160/4180 4-bbls. The use a low mount system, which uses the C4/C5/C6 system flipped, and it allows you to use the forward motion of the bottom of the throttle lever to initiate kickdown. It doesn't matter if a carb is 2-bbl, 4-bbl, or even mechanical or vacuum secondary, they all have bottom holes on the throttle arm which Lokar use for the Holley to AOD adapter.

    Holley do make the Holley carbs with the Ford kickdown rod attachment. The K code Shelby GT350 H ran one. So did many of the automatic FE and truck 4180/4190 carb equipped engines. So do list 1970-1979 Ford Holley carbs for Automatics. It consisted of clip on part that works on the Motorcraft linkage hole spacing's, using the Ford flat ended pressed steel end to tubular half inch or five eighths hollow rod. Its been described many times how to duplicate it (David Vizard on the C4 equipped Pinto 2000 engine), but Holley understand the liability issues, so they say no we don't do Holley to AOD throttle valves, buy a Lokar.


    What is stock is this 300 hp 351C 4V Falcon GT 351 FMX rod kickdown item used in the 1972 Aussie Fords. It has a 4350 Autolite 4-bbl with a clip on floater linkage like all Auto Fords had.




    To make it work for any Holley, you need to do FOUR things A, B, C and D.




    The Autolite 2100/4100 or Motorcraft 2150/4300/4350 linkage is cut off and connected to the Holley 2 or 4-bbl at position A.

    Then at Position B, the throttle cable is attached.

    Then at Position C, the kickdown is attached.


    Item D (unlisted) is the kickdown rod, made of tube steel flattened at both ends, and bent in between on the X, Y and Z axis to clear the headers and steering column union and firewall and frame gussets.

    Item D




    Its end at the rod operated automatic transmission lever



    Its intermediate bends to clear the obstructions




    You use thicker wall stuff of nominal 1/2" to 5/8" diameter, and fashion it the same way as the stock instillation. A greenfields new instillation takes a bit of work, but the rod operated kickdown to throttle valve conversion follows this.


    I did this on my Pinto 2000 engine with the 390 4-bbl and C3 auto.

    The AOD style transmission throttle valve I used the AMC Rambler Rebel 231 L6 six Borg Warner 35 automatic /Chrysler Hemi 265 Valiant kickdown cable and linkage made by Chrysler Australia, and a Chevy Rochester 2CG kickdown linkage.






    When using the Lokar, they just use the lower existing Holley bolt holes, as the linkage is designed to use the lower forward motion, not the top backward motion as the C3/C4/C5/C6/FMX rod linkage does. That's important, because THE aod FOLLOWS THE Borg Warner pullout method. Not the C3/C4/C5/C6/FMX rod linkages

    You can use a kick-down rod as a throttle valve, but it has to be torsionally strong, and has to meet the idle free-play and pullout requirements, and be adjustable for line pressure.

  10. #10
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    For the 1980 to 1985 Panthers, long wheel base Foxes and the CFi 5.0 GT, it was 1968-1972 upper downshift rod thang all over again

    http://www.supermotors.net/registry/10768/33518#content


    Here's the whole megala...http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...63#post1847163

    This is the way they did it on FMX, C6 rod operated small and big blocks with the Autolite carbs.


    Ford really knew its stuff. The Mustang II, Pinto and Fox transition back to cable kick-down area was a rapid concession to the new planned movement to EFI, and its many positioned single throttle body, which ment FoMoCo had to use it. CFi was kept rod kick down, like the C5.

    The European 3.0 Essex V6 with the USA C4 and the raft of Bordeux built "C3" automatic Taunus TC-2-TF Cortina, Sierra, Capri and Granada's with its various 2-bbl Weber carbed and then port fuel injection Bosch K or EECIV EFi 2 EOA , 2.4 and 2.8/2.9 liter V6's was first movement back towards the cable. IIRC, Ford USA copied the European system. The rare 1970-1973 BW 35 was also cable.

    The vast array of aftermarket Lokar style and standard world over FoMoCo cable kickdowns have a few more foibles to them. The key advantage is they generally don't hit other emissions era stuff like rod down-changers do.

    For Ford, it was easier to get all that emissions era TK (Throttle Kicker) TSP (Throttle Solenoid Positioner) and VOTM (Vacuum Operated Throttle Modulator) stuff to jibe with a cable, but the C5 works really good with the rod kickdown if you have the skills to copy over the automatic down shift to your Cruise Control, TK VOTM or TSP.

  11. #11
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    Xctasy, thanks for posting this info. Previous owner of my 82 Continental swapped in a Motorcraft 2150 for the stock VV. The top end of the TV rod was just laying on top of the engine, nowhere to attach it. Haven't driven it, AOD may be toast, maybe not.

  12. #12

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    Thanks for posting this info!! Im thinking of putting an injected 5.0 in front of the c5 though. Is there a kickdown rod that would work or do i need something like the lokhar cable to make this work?

    thanks alot.

  13. #13
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    The Lokar cable is probably easier, but it piles parts on parts, and is a triumph of engineering over common sense.

    Copying Ford stuff is often the best way.


    If you cannot perform the modifications David Vizard did in the Pinto SOHC 2000 Holley 2-bbl to C4 auto kickdown rod,




    then go Lokar.


    I personally feel that using the existing C5 rod, and modifying the existing 4bbl carb to accept the rod is the way to go.



    The 4180c and most Vac Sec carbs have other parts that get in the way of the rod, which is why FoMoCo continually downgraded from the Holley made carbs, and also, from 1979 to 1988, kept the 4180 and its 4190/4195 variants for applications where there was space for it.... namely in Trucks, where they kept it into the late 80's, and early 90's in some F250/350's and the 351W and 370/429/460 truck engines before the run-out of port EFi

    see

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...1984-4-bb-carb
    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...-bb-carb/page2


    Quote Originally Posted by 85_SS_302_Coupe View Post
    Uploaded by EVIL85SSP





    There were no C5 Holley 4bbls, Ford used the 2100, 2150, 4100, 4300, or 4350 Autolite or Motorcraft carbs


    In closing, I 'll say what an old Mazda racer with a mechanical secondary carbed 10A and 12A rotary engines, he used to whoop ass everyone with there 13B engined RX4'S, 5'S and RX-7'S.

    "If the factory stuff and its approx XX factory setting isn't working for you, then you haven't got it set up close enough to XX.X....Toyo Kogyo spent millions making factory engines work, DON'T WATER DOWN THE IMPORTANCE of million dollars of factory development"


    Ford was a huge shareholder in Mazda, the same applies. Don't switch from from factory stuff unless you know as much as the Ford motor company.

  14. #14
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atengnr View Post
    Thanks for posting this info!! Im thinking of putting an injected 5.0 in front of the c5 though. Is there a kickdown rod that would work or do i need something like the lokhar cable to make this work?

    thanks alot.

    Use the factory truck C5 cable kick down.


    For the OP.

    If Ford 2 or 4bbl carb style 5.0 to a C5, the process is:

    The AOD rod operated Throttle Valve might work for length from the carb to the C5,

    or the 2150 2-BBL down shift rod from a carb 4.2V8 (80-82) or 5.0 automatic (79-85).

    Anything 2150 Motorcraft in a Fox, Panther frame or F truck or Van with a C6 or FMX or C5.


    But making one from scratch from pipe might be best.


    The process again in detail

    To make it work for any Holley, you need to do FOUR things A, B, C and D.




    The Autolite 2100/4100 or Motorcraft 2150/4300/4350 linkage is cut off and connected to the Holley 2 or 4-bbl at position A.

    Then at Position B, the throttle cable is attached.

    Then at Position C, the kickdown is attached.


    Item D (unlisted) is the kickdown rod, made of tube steel flattened at both ends, and bent in between on the X, Y and Z axis to clear the headers and steering column union and firewall and frame gussets.

    Item D




    Its end at the rod operated automatic transmission lever



    With the Lokar, you have to check on line, and look at a kit that fits your C5. You'll have to ask a lot of questions.

    If you are still using the factory VOTM and throttle kicker facility for air conditioning, and especially if its got Cruise Control, then, I'd absolutely be an over the top control freak, and use the stock Rod.


    Lokar may work, but you'll have to be very disciplined and ask lots of questions about how it'll work with AC and a Vacuum Operated Throttle Modulator or Cruise Control.



    Lokar have an AOD TV kit for the Edelbrock 4bbl, it can be used for the C5 with a little work.

    There are many options.


    Hope this helped some.

  15. #15
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    The stock kick-down or downshift rod for a C5 and 231 3.8 liter V6 will fit the 5.0 V8 if you make it longer, and use the upper pivot position on the new 4bbl carb.


    Here is Walking Tall's 86 CFI. You can see the down shift rod has an upper pivot on the 2-bbl Motorcraft style throttle linkage.


  16. #16

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    Thanks. Will a truck c5 rod work to link up a port injected 5.0?

    thanks.

  17. #17

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    Lots of good info here but I don't suspect there is any way to hook the truck rod to the car port injected mani/tb, on location alone.

  18. #18
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4eyedblind View Post
    Lots of good info here but I don't suspect there is any way to hook the truck rod to the car port injected mani/tb, on location alone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Atengnr View Post
    Thanks. Will a truck c5 rod work to link up a port injected 5.0?

    thanks.
    No, don't think so. The Port Sequential 5.0/5.8 EFI, the truck bank fire 5.0/5.8 EFI, all use a different cable operated system for kickdown. Anything with a rod C5 won't work unless its converted to a cable.

  19. #19

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    Also need a c4 bell. Forget kick down, down shift if you need to
    82 ford fairmont futura
    quicktime turbosystems 70mm turbo
    10.67@128.38

  20. #20
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    True dat. An important point is that if the trans is an early truck C4, then it will have the same bellhousing as the C5.

    Normally, this does the job.

    Ford C4 C5 Transmission Bell Housing- RFD2AP7976AA ex Ford Lincoln Mercury C4 C5

    Automatic Transmission Bell Housing - 6 1/4" Long (RF-D2AP-7976-AA)

    C5 is the one legitimate ford name change, a late Pan Fill C4 with lock up clutch in the convertor.

    So the C5 was actually an update to the 'Pan Fill C4'.

    Down here, we Mexicans have disciminatiors for everything.

    The so called C10 was variously fitted to the US export Cleveland 302C, and was called the C10 in Australia. (C10 in Mexican talk ).They were primarily an export or truck transmission.

    C7, C8, C9, C10 etc are all nicknames for the modifications Ford did each year to the 1967,68, 69 and 1970 variations of the C4 Bellhousing.

    C4 the early 24 spline C4, and very early, 5 bolt bell housing for SBF
    C7 is the Australian Wide block six cylinder cast iron or alloy bellhousing for our odd ball tall deck 188/200/221/250 sixes. They were made till 1982, an export case fill US C4's with 24 splines for first two years 1967-69, then 26 spline thereafter till 1982
    C8 have the 6 bolt bell housing for SBF V8
    C9 being a late 250 6cyl/ 302 Windsor case fill C4
    C10 being 302 Cleveland pan fill C4.
    1971-the last 1985 351c's had US FMX gearboxes down here.



    So a C5 is a late C4 with lock up clutch in the convertor.

    The 'Pan Fill C4'Found behind 351 Clevelands from 1971 onwards and U.S based trucks and some 351M+ 400 Fords is really what the C5 is based on.


    The C5 bellhousing is the C4 truck 164 teeth longer bellhousing. The clue is that it has the AOD flexplate. The AOD, FMX, Truck C4 are all 164 teeth flexplate transmissions with the same design distances, althought the tail housing and total length varies.

    The odd ball six cylinder C5 has a 164 teeth flexplate, but the bellhousing isn't the same pattern as the V8 and V6 ones. The Bronco II C5 has a C4 Cologne bellhousing.

    Bellhousing interchange and fitment is dependant on case or pan fill, or the whatever the breed of C4 case you have. Cable feed kickdowns often had a divit for the cable. Not everything is interchangable.

    When Ford scoped out the Lock-up clutch C5, it just used the existing truck C4 bellhousing, essentially an FMX replacment.

    The C5 lock-up clutch is not reliable, and no longer serviced. You can still use it with the truck converter.

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