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Thread: I am over it.

  1. #1

    Default I am over it.

    Alright. After the latest incident with my 3.8, i have given up on it. I was considering just ridding myself of the car, however, i have owned it for 20 years and still love the top down driving experience of it....when it was running correct.

    What do I need to change to get a 302 to fit between the rails on this car? it is a 1986, and I am not looking for any fire breathing swap, I am looking for reliability and cruisability. Which to me means a dura spark and carburetor....things I can work on.

    Thank you for the assistance.

  2. #2

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    I did the same swap on my ‘83.

    A 302 will bolt in,
    The 302HO cars had bigger rearend, brakes sway bars etc, but you don’t need those right away.

    I bought a 302, AOD trans and and 8.8 rearend from an ‘89 at the auto wreckers for my ‘83. Changed the intake to a 4bbl, carb from eBay and a duraspark distributor.
    I used the stock driveshaft and radiator.
    Later I upgraded the brakes to the later larger rotors and spindles.
    Over the years I’ve made upgrades and improvements as time allowed.
    The car is a blast to drive and plenty fast for a cruiser.

    A friend did a budget swap in to a ‘68 Mustang,
    He found a low mile mid 80’s t-bird with a good running 302 automatic.
    He swapped the fuel injection for a swap meet 2bbl intake and carb and a rebuilt duraspark distributor from Napa.
    The engine and transmission dropped right in.
    It’s no rocket but a fun reliable cruiser on a budget.

    Next winter’s project is my dad’s ‘83. We’re looking for a complete parts car this time as he wants to change it to a manual and efi.

    Lots of ways to do this swap depending on your goals and budget.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  3. #3

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    Incident? ... never mind, I don't wanna know, lol... the 3.8 boat anchor here is out on the ground right now, lol...

    What you'll be pleasantly surprised about, is how much more room there will be with a 302 between the frame rails with just over an inch less of block deck height. The 3.8, at 9.232", is nearly as high and wide as a 351W with their 9.480-9.503" deck height. Do you have a 302? What's it outta, what's with it? Depends on that what all you'll need... right from scratch, bottom to top... a "dual sump" Fox chassis or '80's Crown Vic or Grand Marquis oil pan (with (earlier) or without (later) the dip stick tube into it, again depending on what 302 block you're working with) and oil pump pick up, engine mounts and/with block brackets, exhaust manifolds or headers, exhaust system of some sort, a source for the Duraspark II ignition to function, and a source for fuel to the carburetor that provides FAR less fuel pressure (constant 5-6psi) than the car's original source (40+psi capable) does (or good old timing cover mounted mechanical fuel pump and fabricated pick up inside the gas tank where the electric pump was...), and SBF V8 front accessories brackets. I'm pretty sure you've seen my thread regarding doing the ignition and fueling... no difference what carbureted engine we're talking about establishing provisions for... so there are some options in there, that don't cost much either, just some work (all of the "new and improved" removed from under hood, accessing the top of the gas tank and changing out the fuel pump for a low pressure one, etc.) and a bit of hardware store shopping and fabricating (fuel pressure regulating T also utilizing the car's original return fuel line, with a restriction inside the T going to the return line, so a constant 5-6psi is established)... and a (correct balance (28.2 or 50 oz-in) for the engine) 164-tooth flex plate for the 302 works with the car's C5 transmission as is... good luck with it....
    Last edited by Walking-Tall; 12-16-2018 at 12:12 PM.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  4. #4

    Default

    Been under the car of the wifes 3.8 86 as well doing the band adjustment. If it doesn't solve the tranny issue I might just shelve the car and go the 302 route as well.

  5. #5

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    If it's cfi nightmares, why not just carb the 3.8? Much easier and cheaper than swapping engines. They make 2 barrel snipers and too if you want to keep fuel injection.
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    K&N filter in a stock dual snorkel, GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721 intake, MSD 8456 Dist., MSD 8227 coil
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers, catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals
    Maximum Motorsports caster/camber plates and strut tower brace, 3.73 rear, dura grip (both Yukon)
    Ford Performance Springs, Firehawk A/S 225/55r16 on LMR TRX r390 wheels (street)
    Federal 595 rs-rr 245/40r17 and 255/40r17 on OE cobra r wheels (race)
    AOD rebuilt with a 6 clutch direct drum, Koline steels stacked with 8 clutches, Kevlar band, superior shift kit, new torque converter. --Everything else stock and fully functional.

  6. #6

    Default

    The problems lie with the CFI. And why go through all the work to make a 3.8 run on a carb when a 302 is damned near a drop in swap? Until 1986 and the fuel injected 5.0, the GT's had 7.5 rear ends and all the research I have done shows the brakes (front and rear) are the same as well. Please.....correct me if I am wrong on those points.

    I need reliability and curise-worthy-ness. That CFI would run great until you shut the car off. once you restarted, it would run like pure dogs#$t. I chased demons and gremlins and every other fictional character in this CFI and engine...enough.

  7. #7
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Default

    The 8.8 was introduced in 1986 with the V8 models and continued in the V8 models thru 2004. Obviously there are differences thru the years, but that is the main information.

    Brakes are the same for the 79-86 models essentially. The 87-93 V8 models use different spindles and better OEM brakes if you want/need the improvement. I highly recommend it, but if just a cruiser, not a big deal.

    I am not an automatic guy, so I can't really comment on interchange between the 3.8 and the 5.0. I will let others address that.

    I don't have much experience with the CFI cars again since I am not an automatic guy, but the 5.0 is for the most case a drop in/bolt in setup. The K member is the same, so no big deal there. The 7.5 in the back will work, although an 8.8 is preferred if going above stock 5.0 power levels. If you have no problem with the C5, I believe it will bolt up to the 5.0, although you will most likely need a different flexplate and want a different converter, but again I might be wrong.

    I personally am not into the carb tuning these days with Ethanol fuel, but don't want the stock Ford EFI in my 4 eyes, so I personally will be installing the Fitech EFI throttle body system. A bit more money, but easy install like the carb, better driveabilty, and less tweaking and tuning in most cases over a carburetor. Good Luck!

    https://fitechefi.com/
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Stalled RestoModification
    1984 SVO Still Waiting Restoration
    1986 GT Under going Wide Body Conversion Currently

    Current Capris:
    1981 Capri Roller
    1981 Capri Black Magic Roller Basket Case
    1982 Capri RS 5.0/4spd T-top Full Restoration Stalled in TX
    1984 Capri RS T-top Roller
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts

  8. #8

    Default

    Thank you all for the advice. The 3.8 is good to go but reliability with that CFI is ridiculous. For now, just getting the car back to where I can enjoy it without the drawbacks i have been experiencing will be great. Swapping out the rear end and brakes may or may not be in the future. i just want to CRUISE!!!

  9. #9
    FEP Super Member mustangxtreme's Avatar
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    Default

    A 5.0 and 3.8 share bell housing bolt patterns. When I first swapped a V8 into my 83L, I ran a carburetor with the C5 from the original 3.8 behind it. You will need the correct 164 tooth flexplate for your engines balance and figure out the kickdown linkage. Of course depending how many miles are on the C5 it may not last long.

    I ended up swapping in an 88 efi 5.0 and AOD from a Thunderbird and have put over 80,000 miles on it with out any major work.
    Dave

    If common sense was common wouldn't it just be sense?

    1983 Capri L T top 5.0 efi aod
    1983 Capri RS Turbo
    1981 Black Magic 400 c6
    93 F-250 351 5sp 4x4

  10. #10
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    I'd actually just add a Port EFI 5.0 or even a basic reco 5.0 with the V8 CFi and computer. The electronics are all EECIV, and your 85% there to getting a 5.0 fuel injection engined car.


    Re-read all of his conversion specific Walking Tall Mikes posts. Mike is an electric and electronic whiz. He could have fixed the Throttle Body EFi if he wanted to, but decided that there were other other things a 3.8 engine will have wrong.

    Given some time and some money, every 3.8 CFi engine can be fixed. But its basic engine block has some other aspects to conquer. The engine is missing 155 pounds of iron you'd find in a 5 liter V8, its got aluminum heads, metric bolts poor thrust bearings if you add a manual gearbox, and it was only Ford USA's second fully metric engine, (the 1974 Lima 2.3 OHC was the first) and Essex headed 1.6 and 1.9 Escorts were basically heavily rework European engines.

    The 3.8 is an engine I really like, but it's got a whole bunch is issues with its basic "pizza base" before the more advanced toppings like better heads, superchargers, CFi, Port EFi, stroker cranks and 5 speed gearboxes were added to itover the years. An 86 V6 bears no comparison to any post 1996 3.8 or the much later, much better 4.2 V6.


    All the Essex CFi V6 specific side's of things can be fixed, but the key parts are making sure each sensor polls right, and that the ECM is working okay.

    Principally, the IAC and the way the EGR valve operates means the learning curve with the 3.8 CFi is different to the 5.0 HO CFi. The HO CFi has no IAC, and the 5.0 engine base is the most reliable engine Ford ever made. The 3.8 Essex 90 engine base certainly isn't as reliable....its got a raft of other problems due to it being a 100% unique new Ford of Canada engine, and Ford USA took 10 l-o-n-g years to debug it, and it eventually changed a lot of stuff, heads, block, ignition, balance shaft, crank, transmission. Ford made critical assumptions that an Essex V6 engine would

    1) always be in service,
    2) with its coolant adequately tended to,
    3) with regular oil changes.

    If that doesn't happen, or if its been laid up, or its low mile driven, then you've still got a bunch of


    a) lack of rockwell hardness in the both the aluminum head castings
    b) bolt stud oxidization,
    c) water pump
    d) EGR blockage
    e) the possibility of main bearing degradation to consider.

    The Essex 90 is just not as inherently reliable as the ages old seven bearing 3.3 or five bearing 5.0 or five bearing 2.3 OHC's are. Or even a good 1975-1979
    Mustang 2.8 four bearing Cologne V6 can be. The Essex 90 has got those issues above, especially if its a pre 1996 engine. The best pre 1996 engine is the heavy duty Supercharged 3.8 MN12 engine, Ford corrected a lot of things before the M90 blower was added to that engine, and it was designed for a 5 speed gearbox.


    The 82-96 stock 3.8 engines have these legion of eight other problems, before you address the 9th and 10th issues, the quirky CFi and EGR system. A full rebuild fixes most of them, but it takes very specific upgrades to fix the core 3.8 engine. The 11 th issue is that its a non manual transmission engine, you can convert it, but you risk shunting the crank shaft into the trust bearing and causing other problems. A 5 speed gearbox would normally be the first thing you'd do to any six cylinder automatic stock engine to give it some off line pep.

    If you follow everything with the CFi, you additionally have to ensure the EGR port and cooling system and its basic engine health is 100%. Do that, and it'll run, but then you'll just have a 120 hp 3.8 V6 engine that performs and drinks fuel about the same as a 1980-1982 Mustang 4.2 V8 did.

    The cooling system was designed to be recharged with a corrosion inhibitor, and all alloy head sixes suffer head gasket, water pump, and head stud problems. If its leaked coolant into the main bearings, a V6 only has four main bearings to hold everything. The Essex V6 was designed as an automatic only engine, even fitting a T5 or ToyoKogyo/Mazda 5 speed gearbox from a Turbo Coupe can take out the thrust bearing and grind the main bearings out.

    The 5.0 HO CFi, its not got any under the CFi issues at all.

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