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  1. #1

    Default new t5 question about an 04 t5 swap

    I found an 04 tremec t5 actually bought it for cheap.
    I know the input shaft is longer, but LMR has an adapter plate specifically for this swap, Has anyone used it?
    I am planning on running a GPS speedo since this trans is electric and switching to a gear drive would be a pain.

    Any thoughts, not sure how warm and fuzzy I feel about it yet

    Thanks

    Todd

  2. #2
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    I have to assume the T5 is out of a V6 2004 Model as the V8 for that year had the TR 3650 which uses an intergrated bellhousing for the Modular engine.

    I believe others have used the V6 T5 with fairly stock engines and been fine. I have no experience with that, so I can't comment. Good Luck!
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    That's an excellent T5, it has the stronger, later 068 gear set. It is easy to swap the input shaft....
    92 coupe
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  4. #4

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    I'd install a fox length input shaft and bearing retainer. The spacer might move the shifter and crossmember mount point rearward to a location that requires additional modifications.

    Find a Fox T5 tailshaft that has provisions for the mechanical speedometer gear also a speedometer drive gear and gear retaining clip. You will need to make a notch with a diamond Dremel bit (the mainshaft is hard as nails) to locate the tang for the gear retaining clip. The 99-04 T5's have the boss for the mechanical gear and clip but the hole was not drilled for the retaining clip.

    Once these mods are done and the input properly shimmed you will have a pretty nice trans. I've recently done one just like this for a friend.
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  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zap's 85 GT View Post
    I'd install a fox length input shaft and bearing retainer. The spacer might move the shifter and crossmember mount point rearward to a location that requires additional modifications.

    Find a Fox T5 tailshaft that has provisions for the mechanical speedometer gear also a speedometer drive gear and gear retaining clip. You will need to make a notch with a diamond Dremel bit (the mainshaft is hard as nails) to locate the tang for the gear retaining clip. The 99-04 T5's have the boss for the mechanical gear and clip but the hole was not drilled for the retaining clip.

    Once these mods are done and the input properly shimmed you will have a pretty nice trans. I've recently done one just like this for a friend.
    Sounds like a pretty straightforward job. Are these similar to the WC trannys or possibly even T5z specs?

  6. #6
    FEP Power Member Broncojunkie's Avatar
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    I've done a few of them, myself. I did pretty much what Zap's said. Instead of notching for the retaining clip (I was afraid of compromising the strength, although most have done it that way with no issues) I used a diamond bit in a dremel. It will grind right through it. I've used the same bit for at least 4 shafts. You can swap in the fox input, use the spacer, or find you a bellhousing from a 94-95 gt. You can also use the v6 bell, although, the v6 cars used an 11" clutch setup. You can buy the larger flywheel from f150 stock (in 50oz or 28oz, depending on your setup). Pressure plate won't bolt up, but the clutch plate from the v6 will work. You can source a pressure plate from f150 stuff, too. Just buy an f150 clutch kit, unless you find a v6 mustang clutch disc you really want. I figure the 11" stuff would be an upgrade. The f150 parts can usually be found cheaper than mustang stuff, too. I haven't done the v6 bell/clutch setup, but I understand there may be some minor clearance issues with your exhaust. I plan on going this route on my 79 cobra next year.

  7. #7

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    I could not find definite specs for these years of the T5. Want to know if these are as strong or stronger than WC and what gear gear ratios

  8. #8
    FEP Power Member Broncojunkie's Avatar
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    They're all world class after, iirc, 85. They are not, however, all rated at the same strength. There were many minor variations from year to year and dependent on the car (4 cyl, v6, v. From my research, I've gathered that the 99-04 v6 t5 was equal in torque rating to the 90 (or maybe 91?) through 95 v8 t5. Rated for 300 ft-lbs and second only in strength to the "z-spec" which was rated at 330 ft-lb.

  9. #9
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broncojunkie View Post
    They're all world class after, iirc, 85. They are not, however, all rated at the same strength. There were many minor variations from year to year and dependent on the car (4 cyl, v6, v. From my research, I've gathered that the 99-04 v6 t5 was equal in torque rating to the 90 (or maybe 91?) through 95 v8 t5. Rated for 300 ft-lbs and second only in strength to the "z-spec" which was rated at 330 ft-lb.
    All of the V8 T5's were WC to my knowledge, but not the 4cyl models in the Mustangs except the SVO. I am not 100% on any of the 94-04 V6 models as I have never tried to use them. I have been lucky enough to have spares and/or find good used V8 T5's.

    The best way to verify what you have and all the specs is to use the 1352-XXX number on the tag attached to one of the bolts of the tail shaft housing. Then look up that number on sites such as this: http://www.5speeds.com/t5/

    Correction ALL 85 and up 4 cyl T5's are WC as per corrections below.
    Last edited by wraithracing; 12-28-2018 at 09:53 AM.
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  10. #10
    FEP Power Member Broncojunkie's Avatar
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    World Class & Non-World Class
    There are two basic kinds of T-5's, Non World Class (NWC) and World Class (WC). The first T-5 was non-world class. In 1983 and 84 Ford used the Non-World Class T-5 to improve the Mustangs performance and gas mileage. All the V8 NWC boxes had 2.95 first gear set with .68 overdrive. All the main output shaft gears and 1st, 2nd, 3rd, gears riding on a solid output shaft with deep oil grooves to provide lubrication. The lower counter gears spin on straight cylindrical bearings with a thrust washer in front to provide support when under load. All the synchronizer rings are made of solid bronze which are of different size than those found in a would-class T-5. It is because there is no bearing under each gear and the bronze synchro rings that the NWC use the heavy 70w gear oil. Torque rating for the NWC was 265ft/lbs.*1985, Ford introduced the World Class T-5 installed with 3.35 first gear set with a .68od behind the 5.OL. T-5 was also used behind both the standard 2.3L with a 3.97 first gearset and the SVO Mustang. SVO received a one year only 3.50 first gear ratio as the 3.97 gear ratio was too low for the added power of the turbo charged 2.3L. No longer were 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gears spinning on a solid output shaft as needle bearings were installed under each gear to reduce drag. The lower counter gears saw tapered bearings to replace the bronze thrust washer. All main shaft synchro's were fiber lined steel rings to improve rings friction surface while 5th remains bronze. By improving the surface friction the synchro slows the gear faster making for smoother shifts. The design remained the same until 1989. Torque rating remained the same at 265ft/lbs.1990 to 1993 the stock Ford production V-8 WC T-5 was upgraded with stronger 3.35 gear set by increasing the nickel content to produce a harder, stronger gear. 2nd and 3rd gear ratios were decreased slightly tp provide more torque to the rear wheels. Synchro linings on 3rd, 4th were improved by changing from fiber linings to carbon fiber to further improve the friction surface resulting in better high rpm shifts. A longer throw shifter was installed to "make shifting easier". The speedo drive gear was changed from 7 tooth to 8 tooth. The 8 tooth was a step backwards when installing lower rear axle ratio greater than 3.55 as the driven gear is limited to 21tooth count. Yes, 23 tooth gears are available but do not last long as the teeth are thin and do not mesh correctly. Torque rating jumped to 300ft/lbs.*When the 93 Cobra was introduced, so was the "Cobra Spec" T-5. It was the first T-5 with a front tapered output bearing and steel front bearing retainer. The Cobra boxes also received a reverse gear brake and synchro assembly where there was none before. Just about everything else remained the same. Torque rating was increased to 310ft/lbs.*1994 and 95 were the last two years Ford used the T-5 behind a V-8. With the introduction of the SN95 Mustangs, the bell housings in both 3.8L and 5.0L were made deeper to place the T-5 shifter in the correct location to the body. This in turn made the input shaft longer. The neutral safety switch was eliminated, as it was no longer needed. The GT 5.0L Mustangs received the standard input shaft bearing and aluminum bearing retainer, where the Cobras continued with the tapered or "cupped bearing" input shaft and steel front bearing retainer. Torque ratings for both remained the same as the 93 T-5 models. 4 cylinder T-5s were no longer needed when the 3.8L V6 motor came along and was replaced with 3.35 first gear ratio and a .68od. The only difference between the 3.8L and standard 5.0L T-5 was the input shaft length. Changing input shaft of the 3.8L T-5 with 93 input shaft, will result in a 93 and early spec T-5. Everything else remained the same.*Today's V-6 Mustangs sports the last of the T-5s. The T-5 behind the 3.8L is a 3.35 first gear set with a .68 over drive. What makes these different from the rest is the electronic speedometer trigger. No longer is there a mechanical driven cable system. It has the longer input shaft equipped with a steel front bearing retainer and reverse synchro brake assembly. Torque rating is 300ft/lbs.Ford also used the T-5 in 2.3L cars through the years. While the 4 cylinder T-5 may appear to be the same, they are not. Most 4 cylinder T-5s received a 3.97 gear set with a .79 overdrive and small input pilot bearing shaft. Four cylinder T-5's should not be used behind a V-8, even when the pilot bearing id is decreased to match. Simply put, they will not hold up. Torque rating ~240ft/lbs. Besides first gear is much too low to be usable behind a high horse power car.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&sour...46012440573608

    This goes into detail a little better.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zap's 85 GT View Post
    I'd install a fox length input shaft and bearing retainer. The spacer might move the shifter and crossmember mount point rearward to a location that requires additional modifications.

    Find a Fox T5 tailshaft that has provisions for the mechanical speedometer gear also a speedometer drive gear and gear retaining clip. You will need to make a notch with a diamond Dremel bit (the mainshaft is hard as nails) to locate the tang for the gear retaining clip. The 99-04 T5's have the boss for the mechanical gear and clip but the hole was not drilled for the retaining clip.

    Once these mods are done and the input properly shimmed you will have a pretty nice trans. I've recently done one just like this for a friend.
    I've done this too, it works out well.
    92 coupe
    78 fairmont - sold, but still loved

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by wraithracing View Post
    All of the V8 T5's were WC to my knowledge, but not the 4cyl models in the Mustangs except the SVO. I am not 100% on any of the 94-04 V6 models as I have never tried to use them. I have been lucky enough to have spares and/or find good used V8 T5's.

    The best way to verify what you have and all the specs is to use the 1352-XXX number on the tag attached to one of the bolts of the tail shaft housing. Then look up that number on sites such as this: http://www.5speeds.com/t5/
    All the 87 up 4 cylinder T5's are world class.

    94-98 V6 trannys are basically 85-89 V8 models with a longer input but retain the mechanical speedo gear.

    99-04 V6 trannys are basically 90-93 V8 models (more like the 92-93 with the better countershaft) but longer input and electric speedo
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  13. #13

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    All 1985 and up 4-cyl T-5s are WC.
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  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Broncojunkie View Post
    ...It is because there is no bearing under each gear and the bronze synchro rings that the NWC use the heavy 70w gear oil. ...
    WRONG.

    ALL Ford T-5s, regardless of whether they are standard duty, aka "non-World Class", or heavy duty, aka "World Class", use Dexron II automatic transmission fluid.
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    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoxChassis View Post
    All 1985 and up 4-cyl T-5s are WC.
    I stand corrected. Guess I need to pay more attention to the 4 cyl stuff.

    Oh WAIT I am a V8 kind of guy! sorry for my misinformation.
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  16. #16

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    Also, I have a 1983-93 Ford T-5 tag decoder here: http://foxchassis.com/decoders/transtag/T5.php
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  17. #17
    FEP Power Member Broncojunkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoxChassis View Post
    WRONG.

    ALL Ford T-5s, regardless of whether they are standard duty, aka "non-World Class", or heavy duty, aka "World Class", use Dexron II automatic transmission fluid.
    I've never owned a non-wc t5 and don't plan to, but I've always found it comical how much the info on this subject differs. For instance, this is straight from Modern Driveline's website:

    Which type of oil is used in a Non-World Class T-5?*

    50w gear oil, as there are no bearings under each gear and the syncro's are bronze with no linings. The original spec was Dextron II. As it is now longer available the next best choice is 50w gear oil or motor oil. ATF, as used in a world class T-5, is too thin to use in a non-world class T-5 leading to premature wear.*

  18. #18

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    What's funny is until 2016 Modern Driveline's site had no mention of Dexron II at all for the NWC. They just straight up regurgitated the same BS everyone else did that NWC used gear oil, and 70W gear oil at that. Then when people started pushing back that Ford and Borg Warner, and then Tremec when they bought BW's light duty transmission division, had said all along that they're supposed to have Dexron II, some websites changed their tune.

    Dexron II is "heavier"? Heavier than what? Dexron II is for NWC and ATF is for WC? Dexron II is ATF. It's in the owner's guides. It's in the factory repair manuals. It had been for 11 years. NWC and WC both used Dexron II. Now all of the sudden what the transmission manufacturer and the vehicle manufacturer had spec'd is "too thin" and leads to "premature wear"? Complete BS.

    What did lead to premature wear was gear oil. Ask AMC, GM, and Jeep all about that in their T-5, which is precisely why BW and Ford said Dexron II belongs in the SD (NWC) T-5, not gear oil.

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    Last edited by FoxChassis; 12-28-2018 at 11:21 AM.
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  19. #19

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    From 2009 on AFM: https://www.allfordmustangs.com/foru...nsmission.html

    Read pages 1 and 2 in that thread.

    SPeace-ATL is Stan Peace. He rebuilds transmission. His site is here: http://www.pro-forceperformance.com

    After I corrected Stan on the whole gear oil in NWC BS he contacted Tremec (they bought BW's light duty transmission division in 1997-98) and this is what they said (in blue) about which fluid in the NWC, since Dexron II is no longer available:

    http://www.pro-forceperformance.com/t-5_history.htm

    Transmission Fluid
    BorgWarner allowed each manufacturer to choose the lubricant for its particular application, but it seems that BorgWarner's recommendation was Dexron-II ATF from the very beginning. GM adopted the Dexron, as proven by the stickers placed on each transmission. Ford adopted Dexron as their official fluid, as proven by specifying the ATF product in their original 1983 and 1984 Field Service Manual publications. For some reason, AMC chose to continue specifying gear oil instead of ATF. The early style of Dexron is no longer available. Generic ATF such as DEX/MERC is a suitable substitute. A Ford dealer will recommend their Mercon-V ATF which is also a good substitute.

    Many Internet sources insist that gear oil should be used in the Non-World Class T-5, but the documentation above clearly reveals that both Ford and GM chose to use ATF from the start. Using gear oil in a Non-World Class transmission will not significantly damage the transmission, but many times, due to Internet confusion as to what is, and is not, a World Class T-5, gear oil has been mistakenly used in the World Class units.


    Update on Dexron VS Gear oil for NON-World Class T-5's:
    Dexron-III ATF replaced Dexron-II in 1993. While Dexron-III meets or exceeds the previous specifications, the viscocity of Dexron-III is thinner than the original Dexron-II that was specified for the NON-World Class T-5. This thinner fluid is fine for the World Class T-5 with the lined synchro rings, but the NON-World Class T-5 with the brass synchro rings needs a thicker fluid to work optimally. As a result, Tremec has specified 30W MOTOR OIL for the NON-World Class T-5's. While Tremec has not published an official document about this, it is confirmed by an email dated 1/9/2012 from a Tremec Engineering/Support employee.


    WARNING: Using gear oil or motor oil in a T-5 with the composite lined blocker rings found in the World Class T-5's will destroy the blocker ring linings over a period of a few months rendering those synchronizers useless.
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  20. #20

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    When I wrote my article for Modified Mustangs & Fords a few years ago, I contacted Tremec to ensure my information was correct before getting the article published. At that time Tremec recommended Dextron III/Mercon (DEX/MERC) for the world class T5 transmissions and 10w30 engine oil for the earlier non world class T5's.

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  21. #21
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    What’s interesting about this is the number of places you can easily get the wrong information!

    Another one that’s a shocker is what happens if you run Teflon based transmission additive in a WC T5. A few of you know the answer but for the rest of the readers ...... what happened to mine is it vastly reduced the effectiveness of the synchronizers which lead to grinding going into gears within just a few thousand miles on a WC T5 that had been perfectly fine previously.

    Expensive lesson!

    I can also say from experience that if you take a T5 that had needle bearings failing because it scoured the shafts in the bearing due to heat while being ran hard ..... an average speed over 100 mph across a run from the Bay Area to the Midwest .... that there are no lubricants that will particularly slow down what is about to happen next.

    70W or 90W .... doesn’t much matter. It’s too thick and can’t fend off the metal particles being released once this process starts.

    And don’t let anyone BS you — a thicker lubricant might make it the trans operate a little quieter but only because it makes bad noises harder to hear. Sorta like the old pine sawdust in the transmission fluid trick the old timers did to Model T Ford’s that works for a few miles on a test drive then about 1/2 a time there after.

    I had to go dig for receipts to remind myself of how damn many clutches and T5’s have died behind my 86GT’s barely warmed 5.0. Enough that the full case plus supply of Dextron II I bought in 1994 lasted me until 2017 but it’s now down to about 1 quart. All from trans refills after clutch jobs and trans replacements after killing another T5.

    Meanwhile the 5.0 has yet to ever be tore down in spite of near 1/2 million miles and two full seasons of bracket racing worth of beatings...... (well — the racing came before most of the miles)

    I could make a fairly long list of what NOT to do to T5’s I guess. Some have held up as little as 10K miles, others well over 200K miles. Many inbetween.

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