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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by JACook View Post
    There's a long list of parts that -might- cause your problems, so replacing parts in hopes they might fix
    something is pretty likely to only lead to frustration. You need to follow the data.

    Have you considered checking the fuel pressure? CFI is pretty picky about fuel pressure, and you've got
    codes saying it's running lean. Should be 35-45 PSI, but most run best between 39 and 42. If the pressure
    is low, you might try a new fuel filter, otherwise you need to diagnose why the pressure is still low. This
    could be a voltage supply problem, a grounding problem, or the main or in-tank lift pump may be failing.
    I've been suspecting faulty grounds for awhile now, replaced the fuel filter when we got the car out this summer so i'd say it's safe to rule that out. I don't know how old the fuel pump is either, i'll want to check that out soon enough. From what I remember, fuel pressure is fine.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Ray

    1986 Mustang "Frankenstang" '03 IRS 3.8 CFI
    1997 Crown Victoria, partially Grand Marquis

  2. #27

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    I added a couple of extra grounds, alt-firewall, intake to firewall and coil housing. I don't think they were really necessary, but it didn't hurt. Quick and easy to take out the EGR and clean it up, new filter, and check those electrical connections. That is if you feel good about your codes. You got some strange ones last time if I remember right. Have you checked them lately?
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers
    GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721 intake
    K&N filter in stock dual snorkel
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons
    catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals
    Maximum Motorsports caster/camber plates and strut tower brace, 3.73 rear.
    Firehawk A/S 225/55/16 on LMR TRX r390 wheels (street)
    Federal 595 rs-rr 225/45/15 on 10 holes (race)
    Everything else stock and fully functional.

  3. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by emerygt350 View Post
    You got some strange ones last time if I remember right. Have you checked them lately?
    showed an abnormal cylinder count, Cyl 1 was low during the balance test.

    other than that it was just EGR, EGO, and system lean.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Ray

    1986 Mustang "Frankenstang" '03 IRS 3.8 CFI
    1997 Crown Victoria, partially Grand Marquis

  4. #29

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    and i have not checked codes since then. started it up a month ago and heard a misfire, didn't take a look since.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Ray

    1986 Mustang "Frankenstang" '03 IRS 3.8 CFI
    1997 Crown Victoria, partially Grand Marquis

  5. #30

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    went through all the ignition wires tonight and found two loose on the plug. did a KOEO check and got this:
    21: ECT out of range
    24:ACT sensor out of range (excl 1.6 PFI, 1.9 PFI & 2.3 T)
    31:EVP out of range


    figured i'd get her started and do a KOER test but my reader was being finicky and didn't want to do anything. or it just wasn't receiving codes.

    gave it a little gas and immediately started to miss and stall out.

    here's the next startup to get it in the garage. https://youtu.be/3J4nrG7F37w

    It was completely fine in reverse if i didn't give it any gas though. Makes me want to believe fuel pressure is the culprit.
    Ray

    1986 Mustang "Frankenstang" '03 IRS 3.8 CFI
    1997 Crown Victoria, partially Grand Marquis

  6. #31

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    The fuel map is basically based on the engine temps, you don't have a functional air temp or coolant temp.

    I would start there. Without those, it's never gonna rub right.
    2 1986 cougars (both 4 eyed and 5.0)
    1 1987 cougar

  7. #32

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    Yeah, did you replace those already? My ect behaved badly because I assumed the tape it came with was there for a reason but it was causing a bad ground situation. Last thing I did before all my gremlins went away was the EC and ACT. That is why I did all the grounding stuff too. I thought it was a little suspect that every sensor on the intake manifold would suddenly decide to flake out. I replaced the EVP 5 years ago and that was throwing an error as well but I didn't bother replacing that again since I was rather sure it was grounding issues. All of those codes are gone now for me and the occasional whacky idle and bad running went with them.
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers
    GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721 intake
    K&N filter in stock dual snorkel
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons
    catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals
    Maximum Motorsports caster/camber plates and strut tower brace, 3.73 rear.
    Firehawk A/S 225/55/16 on LMR TRX r390 wheels (street)
    Federal 595 rs-rr 225/45/15 on 10 holes (race)
    Everything else stock and fully functional.

  8. #33

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    haven't taken a look at those yet, suppose that's also on my list.
    Ray

    1986 Mustang "Frankenstang" '03 IRS 3.8 CFI
    1997 Crown Victoria, partially Grand Marquis

  9. #34

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    got around to taking a look at the ACT and ECT today... they seem to be working fine but when we swapped the ECT with one from a spare 3.8 we have, it ran rich as hell.
    video for reference: https://youtu.be/fcCZFlm2SII

    did the same thing, soon as it was given gas, stalled out. starting to lean to the ECU being the problem again, i'll end up taking a look at it or swapping it with another spare i have soon enough.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Ray

    1986 Mustang "Frankenstang" '03 IRS 3.8 CFI
    1997 Crown Victoria, partially Grand Marquis

  10. #35

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    swapped the ECU with a buddy today, then ran a KOEO test.
    31, 10, 11
    31 is for the EVP being out of range
    10 says Cylinder 1 was low during balance test (didn't do a balance test)
    11, SYSTEM PASS

    i believe the "new" ECU is off a LTD, 88 i think. same 3.8

    then i proceeded to pull plugs
    best example of a rich system, with the plugs being soaked and the electrode covered in carbon. didn't get our ACT and ECT codes this time. darn CFI.
    Ray

    1986 Mustang "Frankenstang" '03 IRS 3.8 CFI
    1997 Crown Victoria, partially Grand Marquis

  11. #36

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    looking back at my old texts between the old man and i, he was sure we replaced the EVP. We never did.

    thank god i have that spare 3.8, i'll swap the EGR and EVP over tomorrow and cross my fingers.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Ray

    1986 Mustang "Frankenstang" '03 IRS 3.8 CFI
    1997 Crown Victoria, partially Grand Marquis

  12. #37
    FEP Member
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    It is a fair amount of work since you have to change heads, but if you decide to stick with the 3.8 but get sick of the CFI, the '88+ MPFI system on the 3.8 is a pretty decent performer and relatively trouble free. I used to get low 30's on the highway with my '92 T-Bird with that setup.
    '89 XR-7 5 Speed
    '95 SC 5 Speed
    '91 Crown Vic P72 351W
    '97 Thunderbird
    '85 Ford LTD Squire

  13. #38

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    what kinda of work and money would a MPFI swap run us? starting to entertain that thought


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Ray

    1986 Mustang "Frankenstang" '03 IRS 3.8 CFI
    1997 Crown Victoria, partially Grand Marquis

  14. #39

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    went through and swapped out the EGR and EVP, ran a little better but still had a miss on the driver side, cyl 4 i believe. blowing tons of white smoke. starting to get fed up with that engine


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Ray

    1986 Mustang "Frankenstang" '03 IRS 3.8 CFI
    1997 Crown Victoria, partially Grand Marquis

  15. #40

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    Those plugs don't look too rich to me
    Not lean, but not dangerously rich either. More like: get it on the highway once in a while.
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers
    GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721 intake
    K&N filter in stock dual snorkel
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons
    catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals
    Maximum Motorsports caster/camber plates and strut tower brace, 3.73 rear.
    Firehawk A/S 225/55/16 on LMR TRX r390 wheels (street)
    Federal 595 rs-rr 225/45/15 on 10 holes (race)
    Everything else stock and fully functional.

  16. #41
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    Oct 2017
    Location
    south-central WY
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    I agree with emerygt350, plugs look ok, maybe a little rich, but not the problem. A little tough to run it on the highway when you have to drive at idle!

    It would really help if frankenstang could give us some hard data, like:
    Fuel pressure, at idle, and when the throttle is opened. Numbers.
    What is the timing, at idle, and when the throttle is opened. Numbers.
    Compression check. Numbers.

    What symptom(s) led to diagnosis of "rich as hell"?

    "Tons of white smoke"???? In my experience:
    Light blue smoke = oil
    Black smoke = too much fuel, gas or diesel, either one
    White smoke = water/coolant, bad bad sign unless you're running a steam engine

    You might try adding some fuel when trying to get it to run above idle, spray some starting fluid or trickle some gas into the CFI unit as you open the throttle, just be careful and have a fire extinguisher ready.

    Two or more problems can make trouble-shooting much more difficult. My advice when facing a difficult problem is to start a log listing what you do and the result of each action, and only change one thing at a time.

  17. #42

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    it's likely that the white smoke is just from sitting in the garage over the winter, not too sure about that just yet

    haven't been able to run any fuel pressure tests yet

    same with compression testing, likely going to get to those this weekend.

    as for the "rich as hell", it's not as rich when we first got the car out last year. but noticeably rich. at least it's not leaning out anymore

    When I put the car in drive I could hear the fuel pump sort of pulsing. I don't know a whole lot but i'm almost positive that's not normal.
    Ray

    1986 Mustang "Frankenstang" '03 IRS 3.8 CFI
    1997 Crown Victoria, partially Grand Marquis

  18. #43

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    Interesting. And I didn't mean to sound like I was telling you to go drive at highway speeds, just that plugs look like that from running cold all the time.

    Run down to the auto store, get thee a free compression and fuel pressure meter (borrow).

    Only hard part is your pump may have no problem keeping up in the parking lot, but not under load.
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers
    GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721 intake
    K&N filter in stock dual snorkel
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons
    catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals
    Maximum Motorsports caster/camber plates and strut tower brace, 3.73 rear.
    Firehawk A/S 225/55/16 on LMR TRX r390 wheels (street)
    Federal 595 rs-rr 225/45/15 on 10 holes (race)
    Everything else stock and fully functional.

  19. #44
    FEP Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Grand Rapids, MI
    Posts
    480

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    Quote Originally Posted by darkd0r View Post
    What symptom(s) led to diagnosis of "rich as hell"?

    "Tons of white smoke"???? In my experience:
    Light blue smoke = oil
    Black smoke = too much fuel, gas or diesel, either one
    White smoke = water/coolant, bad bad sign unless you're running a steam engine
    If you have one or more injectors sticking open and dumping fuel you can/will produce white smoke from the exhaust.


    Keep an eye on the coolant level and also condition of the oil. I don't think this generation of 3.8 is that much less prone to head gasket issues than the later years.
    '89 XR-7 5 Speed
    '95 SC 5 Speed
    '91 Crown Vic P72 351W
    '97 Thunderbird
    '85 Ford LTD Squire

  20. #45

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    we always had a loss of coolant, never knew where it was going either. though the oil looked fine last time we changed it and every time we check the dipstick


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Ray

    1986 Mustang "Frankenstang" '03 IRS 3.8 CFI
    1997 Crown Victoria, partially Grand Marquis

  21. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinVarnes View Post
    If you have one or more injectors sticking open and dumping fuel ....
    That, if the case, would be incredibly easy to observe with the air cleaner off of a CFI.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  22. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by 86frankenstang View Post
    we always had a loss of coolant, never knew where it was going either. though the oil looked fine last time we changed it and every time we check the dipstick
    Hmmm... coolant loss that ain't on the ground only has two other avenues, cylinders or crankcase... the oil will often look fine (unless recently hot and whipped to a frenzy... then you'll see "chocolate milk"), though water/coolant (heavier than engine oil) is what will first come out when the drain plug is opened, and will hide in the bottom of the drain pan, and therefore will not be seen on the dipstick either.
    Last edited by Walking-Tall; 04-06-2019 at 12:28 PM.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  23. #48
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    Grand Rapids, MI
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walking-Tall View Post
    That, if the case, would be incredibly easy to observe with the air cleaner off of a CFI.
    Merely trying to point out that extremely rich conditions can produce white smoke. Most people see white smoke and immediately assume it is burning coolant.
    '89 XR-7 5 Speed
    '95 SC 5 Speed
    '91 Crown Vic P72 351W
    '97 Thunderbird
    '85 Ford LTD Squire

  24. #49

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    It's not extremely rich. Though the car didn't blow white smoke after we swapped the ECM, but after swapping the EGR and EVP as a whole.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the fuel pump was going out. As far as we know it's likely original, hasn't been changed under our ownership. Once I put it in drive I noted that the fuel pump was sort of "pulsing". Something I never noticed before now. But as usual, going to rent a compression tester and fuel pressure tester soon and attempt to rule that out.

    On a better note, I discovered an 89 SuperCoupe for sale, Supercharged 3.8 with a 5 speed behind it. Now we don't have 1k to possibly spend on a donor car right now, though the only thing mentioned on the SC was a blown headgasket. Just the mere thought of it gives me hope for what we want to do with this car.
    Ray

    1986 Mustang "Frankenstang" '03 IRS 3.8 CFI
    1997 Crown Victoria, partially Grand Marquis

  25. #50
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    I'm curious to hear how your fuel pressure acts. When I tested it on my car trying to figure some stalling issues with the key on the pressure went up really slowly to 10psi. As I cranked it the pressure rose a bit more until it finally started when it got to 20psi. Once running the pressure stayed steady at 35psi. I'm more used to seeing the pressure come right up when the pump turns on. Car runs fine otherwise.
    '89 XR-7 5 Speed
    '95 SC 5 Speed
    '91 Crown Vic P72 351W
    '97 Thunderbird
    '85 Ford LTD Squire

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