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  1. #51
    FEP Member
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    Dec 2016
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    Grand Rapids, MI
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    386

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    Quote Originally Posted by 86frankenstang View Post
    what kinda of work and money would a MPFI swap run us? starting to entertain that thought


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I saw you asked the same question in another thread. You have two options if you want to stick with the 3.8, but go to a more updated design. The first is the '88-'98 MPFI. The early years had a distributor. The later years ('94+?) were DIS. Some of the early MPFI cars were speed density. After a couple of years all switched over to MAF. I always though the MAF cars ran a little better, but the speed density cars weren't bad. The second is the split port 3.8 used in the Windstar ('96-'03) and then the Mustang ('99-'04). The split port engines put out around 200hp as I recall. I have no experience with the split port engines, but I've heard they run pretty well.

    In either case it would honestly probably be easiest just to swap a complete engine of your choice. There is very little love for the lowly Ford 3.8 so you can probably find a good complete engine with controls and wiring harness for not a lot of money. Your best (and most likely these days anyway) bet would be to find one from a Mustang.

    It would be a fair amount of work as you will likely have to plumb fuel lines to meet the new fuel rail and obviously wiring for the new ignition and fuel controls. You will have other things to figure out as well like power steering and A/C lines. It's all completely doable, but probably not a weekend job. The good news is the late model Mustang engine bay should be relatively close to yours so you may be able to use later model parts and get in the ballpark if not a direct fit.

    Just don't expect some super high performance engine if you stick with a stock N/A setup. A lot of people badmouth the 3.8, but when you take it for what it is it can be very reliable, return decent performance, and can deliver pretty impressive economy.

    The biggest issue with most 3.8's is the head gasket monster. If they are properly serviced with high quality (I've always used Fel-Pro and never had any issues) gaskets then it shouldn't be a problem for you.

    I've owned several 3.8 MPFI powered Fords over the last 20+ years both supercharged and N/A. I've done head gaskets a couple of times. I honestly can't think of anything else that breaks on these, especially the N/A engines. They just run and run. No temperamental early EFI to mess with and what is there is pretty bullet-proof and easy to diagnose if something does go awry.
    '89 XR-7 5 Speed
    '95 SC 5 Speed
    '91 Crown Vic P72 351W
    '95 Saturn SW2
    '85 Ford LTD Squire

  2. #52

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    Going to try to diagnose this problem with a fuel pressure test and compression test... I know, it's been awhile and nothing has been done, been focused on my vic lately, thankfully I'm finally getting a second wind of motivation to maybe get this fixed before the month is up. I'll be back later this week with numbers and hard data.
    Ray

    1986 Mustang "Frankenstang" '03 IRS 3.8 CFI
    1997 Crown Victoria, partially Grand Marquis

  3. #53
    FEP Member
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    Dec 2016
    Location
    Grand Rapids, MI
    Posts
    386

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    I'd be curious to hear how quickly your fuel pressure comes up. Mine comes up very slowly just sitting there with KOEO and slowly works its way up as the engine cranks. Running pressure is fine and it hasn't given me any trouble otherwise.
    '89 XR-7 5 Speed
    '95 SC 5 Speed
    '91 Crown Vic P72 351W
    '95 Saturn SW2
    '85 Ford LTD Squire

  4. #54

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    I'm expecting it to build up very slowly, It'll crank for a second then start firing cylinders until eventually most are firing, it's apparent in the video linked in the last couple of posts if anyone wants to give those a look.
    Ray

    1986 Mustang "Frankenstang" '03 IRS 3.8 CFI
    1997 Crown Victoria, partially Grand Marquis

  5. #55

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    Just watched the second one. Dude, sounds like too much advance.

    I wrote a whole paragraph on advance issues I have had but now I just don't know. I would start with disconnecting the spout connector to the distributor and observing what that does. If things improve it means your computer is compensating for something awful. A vacuum leak perhaps.

    If nothing changes than I would chase the fuel thing.

    The sound, the start up, the anemia all makes me think timing though and probably computer induced.
    Last edited by emerygt350; 05-08-2019 at 07:52 PM.
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers
    GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721, K&N filter in stock dual snorkel,
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons, catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals.
    3.73 rear. CS5 225/60/15 on 10 holes (street) Federal 595 rs-rr 225/45/15 on 10 holes (race)
    Everything else stock and fully functional.

  6. #56

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    Any chance you have a afr gauge? I bought one for my car after the rebuild to make sure my CFI could keep up with the new intake/heads/cam/exhaust but I have found it super useful for keeping an eye on what my computer is up to. I can see when it is thickening up the mixture when cold and I can see when it is confused (running rich when hot, happens sometimes when the engine is medium cold and I stop the motor and come back and start it again). My set up cost a 150 dollars so not something I would run out and buy but it isn't engine specific so you can keep on using it no matter what you do with this car.

    and nice looking engine bay by the way.
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers
    GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721, K&N filter in stock dual snorkel,
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons, catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals.
    3.73 rear. CS5 225/60/15 on 10 holes (street) Federal 595 rs-rr 225/45/15 on 10 holes (race)
    Everything else stock and fully functional.

  7. #57

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    i'm not noticing any real vacuum leaks, then again i haven't thoroughly gone through it to check. we adjusted timing after we cleared our previous problem of being rich, i think we set it at 10 adv. don't remember. i'll bring it up sometime. engine was cold at the time of the video, system should've been closed loop at the time though.
    Ray

    1986 Mustang "Frankenstang" '03 IRS 3.8 CFI
    1997 Crown Victoria, partially Grand Marquis

  8. #58

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    no afr gauge at the moment, been looking into one since i love to know what's going on with my engines and stuff. I went and changed the ECM with a spare one we got after we were chasing our last major issue, no change. i'm probably going to try that spout thing mentioned in the morning just to get that out of the way.
    Ray

    1986 Mustang "Frankenstang" '03 IRS 3.8 CFI
    1997 Crown Victoria, partially Grand Marquis

  9. #59

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    last thing before i take off for the night.
    spout connector is here? it's the only other thing besides the actual connector on the distributor just don't want to take off the wrong thing and think i'm doing the right thing.
    Future note: Disregard this completely. That is the ignition coil, @past me.
    Last edited by 86frankenstang; 06-06-2019 at 10:27 AM.
    Ray

    1986 Mustang "Frankenstang" '03 IRS 3.8 CFI
    1997 Crown Victoria, partially Grand Marquis

  10. #60

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    Spout comes off from the TFI link, is that a remote tfi setup? It should be just one wire that has a built in quick connect in it. If you set the base to 10 degrees without disconnecting it than that might be part of your problem. I can't find a good pic for a remote system but this is what it looks like on a distributor mounted system.
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    In that schematic you can see the spout quick connect.
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers
    GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721, K&N filter in stock dual snorkel,
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons, catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals.
    3.73 rear. CS5 225/60/15 on 10 holes (street) Federal 595 rs-rr 225/45/15 on 10 holes (race)
    Everything else stock and fully functional.

  11. #61

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    i just have the connector on the dist. i didn't see anything else on that. i completely forgot to snag a picture this morning, i'll get that tonight
    Ray

    1986 Mustang "Frankenstang" '03 IRS 3.8 CFI
    1997 Crown Victoria, partially Grand Marquis

  12. #62

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    ALRIGHTY.

    still haven't checked fuel pressure or anything yet, but we just completely disregarded doing the timing again because we just set it last summer, but i took pictures of the engine bay and of course the dist.
    or at least the connector for the dist.

    then i decided to let 'er rip and giver it a start.

    It was exceptional for about 30 seconds. then the miss started and the entire car SHOOK. shut it off, let it sit for a couple minutes. then tried to start again.
    https://youtu.be/APoUUu8nZo8
    at this angle you can clearly hear the fuel pump doing its thing. possibly not well, have yet to diagnose. didn't run it through gears, just let it idle in park for the duration, probably should've just for the video but that didn't cross my mind. I tried to give it gas though, almost stalled, dipped down to 200 then kinda stabilized.
    Ray

    1986 Mustang "Frankenstang" '03 IRS 3.8 CFI
    1997 Crown Victoria, partially Grand Marquis

  13. #63

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    checked resistance to the ignition coil, both good and within range. .9 ohm primary 9.6 K Ohm secondary. ruling that out right now.
    Ray

    1986 Mustang "Frankenstang" '03 IRS 3.8 CFI
    1997 Crown Victoria, partially Grand Marquis

  14. #64

    Default

    It's the loop change that is getting you. Mine did that untill I fixed every bad sensor. It should be repeatable if it is.
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers
    GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721, K&N filter in stock dual snorkel,
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons, catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals.
    3.73 rear. CS5 225/60/15 on 10 holes (street) Federal 595 rs-rr 225/45/15 on 10 holes (race)
    Everything else stock and fully functional.

  15. #65

    Default

    And the spout will be just after the tfi plug on the distributor. If you timed it without disconnecting it, you didn't time it and that might be part of your problem. I suspect disconnecting the spout may keep your engine running just like those first 30 seconds. Time it again with the spout disconnected.
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers
    GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721, K&N filter in stock dual snorkel,
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons, catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals.
    3.73 rear. CS5 225/60/15 on 10 holes (street) Federal 595 rs-rr 225/45/15 on 10 holes (race)
    Everything else stock and fully functional.

  16. #66

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by emerygt350 View Post
    And the spout will be just after the tfi plug on the distributor. If you timed it without disconnecting it, you didn't time it and that might be part of your problem. I suspect disconnecting the spout may keep your engine running just like those first 30 seconds. Time it again with the spout disconnected.
    We timed it with it disconnecting. I guess I'll see how it goes with disconnecting the spout.

    any input on resetting base idle? Need to do that and readjust IAC sometime too. I noticed issues shortly after we adjusted that.
    Ray

    1986 Mustang "Frankenstang" '03 IRS 3.8 CFI
    1997 Crown Victoria, partially Grand Marquis

  17. #67

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    I am not sure on the V6, I know I googled it once for the v8. I also believe that IAC and idle are done differently between the V8 and V6. In the V8 the IAC has zero to do with idle but I remember reading somewhere that it does on the V6?
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers
    GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721, K&N filter in stock dual snorkel,
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons, catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals.
    3.73 rear. CS5 225/60/15 on 10 holes (street) Federal 595 rs-rr 225/45/15 on 10 holes (race)
    Everything else stock and fully functional.

  18. #68

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by emerygt350 View Post
    I am not sure on the V6, I know I googled it once for the v8. I also believe that IAC and idle are done differently between the V8 and V6. In the V8 the IAC has zero to do with idle but I remember reading somewhere that it does on the V6?
    my idle was ridiculously low a couple weeks before we put it away for the winter, it'd stall at red lights and 4 way stops, adjusted IAC to bump idle in park to about 1.1k and 800 in gear. i'm gonna go off on a whim and say it's influencing something.
    Ray

    1986 Mustang "Frankenstang" '03 IRS 3.8 CFI
    1997 Crown Victoria, partially Grand Marquis

  19. #69

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    if i'm recalling correctly it'd idle at like 350-ish in gear. probably going to swap out the ECM again for the old one and see if that does anything.
    Ray

    1986 Mustang "Frankenstang" '03 IRS 3.8 CFI
    1997 Crown Victoria, partially Grand Marquis

  20. #70

    Default

    I assume your v6 using timing to do idle to some degree. Try disconnecting the spout and see if it keeps running. If that is the case it means your sensors are telling the computer bad stuff and probably all the mechanical stuff is fine.
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers
    GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721, K&N filter in stock dual snorkel,
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons, catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals.
    3.73 rear. CS5 225/60/15 on 10 holes (street) Federal 595 rs-rr 225/45/15 on 10 holes (race)
    Everything else stock and fully functional.

  21. #71

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by emerygt350 View Post
    I assume your v6 using timing to do idle to some degree. Try disconnecting the spout and see if it keeps running. If that is the case it means your sensors are telling the computer bad stuff and probably all the mechanical stuff is fine.
    did disconnect the spout and run it, there is a misfire going on. that and when i gave it gas it stalled out.
    Ray

    1986 Mustang "Frankenstang" '03 IRS 3.8 CFI
    1997 Crown Victoria, partially Grand Marquis

  22. #72

    Default

    did it do the 30 second and then run like crap or did it just stay the same?
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers
    GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721, K&N filter in stock dual snorkel,
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons, catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals.
    3.73 rear. CS5 225/60/15 on 10 holes (street) Federal 595 rs-rr 225/45/15 on 10 holes (race)
    Everything else stock and fully functional.

  23. #73

    Default

    stayed the same, misfire persists though
    Ray

    1986 Mustang "Frankenstang" '03 IRS 3.8 CFI
    1997 Crown Victoria, partially Grand Marquis

  24. #74

    Default

    Interesting. I would have to say you have two different problems (2 being minimum). The misfiring has to be a ignition issue (rather than fuel delivery or timing). Since it was occurring while the spout was disconnected it probably can't be a computer based ignition issue unless it is the PIP in the distributor.

    Here is what I would do with the misfire if it were me. Check compression all the way around (I would run it for a bit first and check the condition of the plugs as I go, again). Verify that timing and make sure your timing marks are correct. Check that fuel pressure although I doubt that is it. Then on the money side; Replace the coil, wires, plugs, O2 sensor, TFI, PIP. In that order checking between each replacement for misfire. Although the TFI and PIP should show up in the codes I would be tempted to do it anyway as a final resort.

    As for the crap running in closed loop, that has to be sensors. Maybe that O2 but I would suspect all the other manifold sensors first. I would just make sure they are grounding good (get rid of any plumbers tape), add some extra grounds to the engine, coil body, and CFI studs.

    Mine has had those closed loop issues before and it was a mix of sensors and PIP replacement that fixed it in the end. But my codes were always sane (but of course didn't always point to the ultimate cause).

    Now, the two may all be connected if you have a cylinder that is dumping badly burned fuel into the exhaust (your misfire). That may be telling the computer it is a super rich condition and cutting back on fuel flow, but the CFI can only cut back a little bit so I don't think it could lean the engine to quitting.
    Last edited by emerygt350; 05-19-2019 at 12:12 PM.
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers
    GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721, K&N filter in stock dual snorkel,
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons, catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals.
    3.73 rear. CS5 225/60/15 on 10 holes (street) Federal 595 rs-rr 225/45/15 on 10 holes (race)
    Everything else stock and fully functional.

  25. #75

    Default

    wires, plugs, and O2 sensors were done when the first problem that left it to sit for 14 years came along. Coil's resistance checked out alright so i'm not concerned about that, though the dist hasn't been done under our ownership.
    Ray

    1986 Mustang "Frankenstang" '03 IRS 3.8 CFI
    1997 Crown Victoria, partially Grand Marquis

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