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  1. #1

    Default 2.3T to 3.8SC in 88 Turbo Coupe

    I have an 88 Turbo Bird, but the big "killer" is the car is an automatic. And the car is blowing oil out the tail pipe. While I have a 1990 SC manual car, and I want to know just how difficult it would be to swap the 3.8SC and 5speed trans into the Turbo Coupe while using as many of the original systems as possible. And I know that I might be posting this in the wrong forum, if so point me in the right direction.

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by EverydayBirdStuff View Post
    I have an 88 Turbo Bird, but the big "killer" is the car is an automatic. And the car is blowing oil out the tail pipe. While I have a 1990 SC manual car, and I want to know just how difficult it would be to swap the 3.8SC and 5speed trans into the Turbo Coupe while using as many of the original systems as possible. And I know that I might be posting this in the wrong forum, if so point me in the right direction.
    So, I would ditch the m5od trans. I got a sn95 t5 for $125 off Craigslist all ready to go. This would require a fox cable pedal swap, but really isnt too bad.

    The hard part will be wiring. Where both are at least sec-4 it should be fairly simple. I do know that the 3.8 sc motor was used in an 88 body for durability. I also think that the 91-93 tbird used the same mounts as the 86-88 302, so even the motor mounts may work.

    I see it as doable, but it will probably be a pain. Body dimension and hood room are way different. But I have seen the sn95 crowd run them, do they should fit.

    Now I would love to see this swap happen, but a 302 would probably make more power for the same money, but you do all ready have the car. Let me know what you end up doing, ill be excited to see it either way.
    2 1986 cougars (both 4 eyed and 5.0)
    1 1987 cougar

  3. #3
    FEP Senior Member
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    There have been quite a few SC swaps into Fox body cars over the years. There is one semi-active thread in this forum about a swap into a Mustang. Some are more refined than others. As mentioned Ford installed the 3.8SC into '88 T-Birds for testing. I bought my wagon specifically because it came with a 3.8 so the 3.8 SC would be a relatively clean swap in terms of engine mounts and fitting in the engine bay. I have several 3.8 SC engines and M5R2s laying around. Are you going to raid from the '90 or do you have another source of parts? I have a '93 SC parts car that I have been holding onto to use for parts for my swap.

    Physically fitting the engine should be the easy part. It is all the ancillary stuff that you will have to figure out (power steering connections, A/C, wiring, etc.). No different than any other engine swap.

    Everybody dogs the M5R2, but I've never had any issues with it. I have it in my '89 XR-7 and '95 SC. Both work fine. The T5 might be fine behind it in a lighter car, but I figure Ford didn't spend the money to put a truck transmission in a sports car for no reason. You already have the hydraulic clutch setup. I am still in the infant stages of that. I have all of the pedals and master cylinder mount. I need to check to see if a SC master cylinder will fit in place of the TC master cylinder as they are different bore sizes. It looks like it might. The only difficulty is the shifter location on the M5R2 is several inches further back than the T5.

    I am still working on getting the brakes/suspension/chassis up to snuff on my wagon so this engine swap is realistically 1-2 years out for me yet.
    '89 XR-7 5 Speed
    '95 SC 5 Speed
    '91 Crown Vic P72 351W
    '97 Thunderbird
    '85 Ford LTD Squire

  4. #4

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    I know that I have not replied to this thread for a while, hope its not dead. I will try to use as many parts from the 90' as possible, But if the trans is going to sit farther back the T5 don't sound to bad. What I want out this build, Something that is hoot to drive, simple to fix when breaks, and is fairly reliable. What i won't be using is power steering, I am more than likely ditch the ac, and weed out all the non-essentials from the wiring harness. I am going to try and use the 90' instrument cluster harness, but update it for new gauges and for it to fit the foxbody cluster hole. I know that i am going to pull the dash out of the 88' and the 90' is more than likely headed to the scrap yard after this. I hope to start the build soon, just trying to get a good idea and parts list togather.

  5. #5
    FEP Senior Member
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    Something to keep in mind is the early SC (89-93) crank position sensors are very difficult to source right now. There are some aftermarket replacement parts in the works, but they probably won't be in production until later this year. I may or may not change the controls on mine to the 94/95 style depending on that and several other factors.

    I go back and forth on the T5. Depending on your budget an aftermarket 5 or 6 speed transmission wouldn't be a bad choice. Some of the prices I see people charging for T5's makes me think an aftermarket trans wouldn't cost much more and should be much more reliable.
    '89 XR-7 5 Speed
    '95 SC 5 Speed
    '91 Crown Vic P72 351W
    '97 Thunderbird
    '85 Ford LTD Squire

  6. #6
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Thankfully, a wide variety of crank position sensor options exist; anything that suits MegaJolt, Holley HP and most of the the other systems can make a square wave form for the EECIV 's EDIS 6 to read. The ignition needs to be perfect on a 3.8 SC.


    The little complication with EECIV EDIS 6 was



    1. it went back to a Crank Position sensor because a good SuperCharged V6 probably needs needs Sequential EFi to idle like a proper V8.


    2. Thats why they went to a MAF system too...emissions, idle, ease of tune.

    3. Its only a four bearing six cylinder engine with a few balance issues. The block and crank are unique castings, upgraded for strength, and specfic to that engine.

    a) Ford decided to make the one piece F150 truck Mazda/Toyo Kogyo 5 speed available to use the center hole punch clutch to take the trust loads off the engine during gear-changes.

    b) If you go back to the T5, it has insufficient strength in reserve for big boost compared to the "MazDog". Im not saying one is better than the other, Im pointing out that Fords T5 was limited to 320 lb-ft, and they didnt want to go 6 speed, so the Mazda Trans solved a couple of other 90 Degree Super Charged Essex V6 durabilty "issues". Conversion to a V8 T5 is easy, but its two piece bell-housing will be shaken and stirred by an engine not quite as smooth as a good 5.0 or 5.8 V8. If you don't do a good job of positioning the main shaft and looking after the trust loads, you could run main bearings.


    IIRC, According to info from an Australian Wheels magazine in 1988, and backed up by StreetMachine in 1990, the manual gearbox 3.8 SC engine failed its early durability targets.

    Its likely the one piece trans were there to ensure it was strong enough under boost and gear-changes.


    4. There was another complication...false knock from the Eaton Supercharger. So its airflow priority system runs opposite to other systems. Ford was very particular about avoiding knock on this engine, and revised a few sensors and calibrations before it was able to make

    5. Once you've figured out those little parts, you'll be sweet.


    6. Air Conditioning causes some condenser and water line issues,


    7. and the stock FMIC is not very good.


    8. There are lots of ECM connections, but Ford really decided to make this little Canadian Essex 90 work really well.


    The crossmember on later 88's differ to the donated MN 12 90 Bird 3800 SC engine, so you'll have to trial fit the engine for Cross member to engine clearance. The 88 has a lot more space around it than the smaller Foxes, though.

    Your electric pinouts are going to be the main issues to contend with.


    See

    Quote Originally Posted by plstktnkr2 View Post
    UPDATE: I am mocking up the air tubes now.:


    Quote Originally Posted by plstktnkr2 View Post
    Up date again: make sure you have a "hot all the time wire for pin #1 Keep alive power (KAPWR) and you have a good ground for pin 60 power ground (PWR GRND) doing wires and checking my continuity while I work

    Quote Originally Posted by droopie85gt View Post
    Your work on the wiring looks vaguely familiar. Vaguely as in I was doing it yesterday.


  7. #7
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnkyrd1 View Post
    ]Not jacking your thread. Just showing GREAT minds think alike.
    Quote Originally Posted by plstktnkr2
    Nice job!

    Mine will differ in having a full size radiator, and a 3x larger I/C, and no A/C (who needs A/C in a ragtop??? {in the mid-Atlantic} )

    BTW just as an update I am assembling the harness onto the engine and wondering does anybody have a diagram for a oil level sensor curuit???

    The A/C situation is a mandatory for Arizona, I'd guess.



    Things look tight at the firewall where the throttle body and A/C hardware meet.

  8. #8

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    The t-5 trans will line up perfectly in the fox body thunderbird, keeping the interior functional and stock in appearance. The m5od shifter is around 8" further back, which would put the shifter in the armrest of the center console. A cable clutch pedal for a mustang fits perfectly as well. The m5od uses a hydraulic clutch. The only hydraulic clutch came from 87-88 turbo coupes which would probably work if you could find one, but I'm not sure how much it would take compared to the bolt in t-5. Also, the m5od is a physically larger trans. I'm sure it could fit, but the t-5 does fit. When I did my sn-95 t-5, I was able to reuse the driveshaft and cross member from my aod. I believe the m5od to be the same length, but I have no idea if the cross member would line up, or if it would require "custom" work. Because of this, the driveshaft from an 3.8 or 5.0 aod tbird/cougar would bolt right up.

    The 3.8sc made around 210hp and 315ftlbs. Compared to the 225 hp and 300ftlbs of the mustang equipped with the t-5, I would think it would be the perfect swap. The sn-95 t-5 uses the larger 11" clutch and 164t flywheel just like the m5od (I actually used an m5od clutch and flywheel for an f-150 when I did my sn-95 swap behind my 302) and can be had for about $125 at almost any junkyard. Not that swapping a trans is fun, but if you do break it, it is easily replaced. And the t-5 would last longer behind a foxbody tbird then a mn-12 because it weighs in at at least a couple hundred pounds less. The m5od is a pretty rare trans with few upgrades. Because of this, a bunch of sc guys swap to the t-5 when they break them.

    I think the biggest problem will be the wiring and getting everything happy and working. I think its an interesting swap and one I've thought about doing quite a bit.
    2 1986 cougars (both 4 eyed and 5.0)
    1 1987 cougar

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